Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Penna]

Same here, though, unlike you, I didn't even realise how much I loved being part of Europe until Brexit. It is a bit more than losing the opportunities to be part of the EU. I feel like Brexit has destroyed the perception I had of British people and the UK in general. My area voted leave by a significant margin. Now I look at my neighbours and wonder what sort of people they really are.

That's just how I feel, to the extent that we don't want to live in the UK anymore. We had no intention of becoming Italian residents before Brexit, but now we have Italian ID cards and we're at the point of going back to England in a month or so and getting our house ready for sale. I don't really want to go back at all, I feel completely estranged from my own country.

We're lucky to be able to escape.

 

[VeevaVee]

What a fecking plank.

I at least have a shred of respect that as a farmer he probably knows a bit about the EU, which is something more than most people. Like many though he's shot himself in the foot. Muppet.

 

[VeevaVee]

I don't think remainers have to justify anything. We were happy with the status quo, we wanted it to continue, we liked being part of Europe with all the benefits that confers. Personally, I see no negatives at all to being a member of the EU.

I was 17 when we had the last referendum, and although I was just too young to vote I was involved in doorstep canvassing on behalf of the "yes" campaign. I've been European for my whole adult life and now I'm at retirement age, it's being taken away from me.

I'm extremely upset about losing my European citizen status, losing my right to vote for MEPs, losing the freedom to easily travel to and live within European countries. I can't think of another domestic political issue that's had such an impact on the way I feel, and I've been voting for 42 years now.

Yup. End of discussion really. We didn’t vote to tip the cart over, they did. And they have either poor answers or no answers depending on what the current questions are. And they cry foul when people point this out.

Well said and entirely true.

 

[Sweet Square]

Same here, though, unlike you, I didn't even realise how much I loved being part of Europe until Brexit. It is a bit more than losing the opportunities to be part of the EU. I feel like Brexit has destroyed the perception I had of British people and the UK in general. My area voted leave by a significant margin. Now I look at my neighbours and wonder what sort of people they really are.

That's just how I feel, to the extent that we don't want to live in the UK anymore. We had no intention of becoming Italian residents before Brexit, but now we have Italian ID cards and we're at the point of going back to England in a month or so and getting our house ready for sale. I don't really want to go back at all, I feel completely estranged from my own country.

We're lucky to be able to escape.

Not to be rude but as foreigner living over here for the past 15 years, it was pretty clear that once the UK had a referendum people were going to vote to leave.
To me anyway it was far more shocking that people thought it couldn't happened.

Although I do think the Brexit divide stuff is completely overdone. Hardly anyone I know or talked to since the referendum result cares about brexit, I remember a whole group of us (leave voters and remain voters) were talking about Brexit and within a couple of minutes we all got very bored and talked about the snooker on the telly.

It's hardly mad max over here.

 

[RedChip]

I think there are some people who have more substantive reasons for leaving but just do not get involved because, from my perspective at least, it is an oppressive atmosphere to people with their viewpoint.

Well I guess we differ in what we consider oppressive. I would consider it oppressive if leavers were not allowed to put forward their arguments. But they can put forward any argument they wish; it is just that their arguments do not stand up to scrutiny very well. So the majority of them just moan about being insulted; or don't bother posting having seen similar arguments to their own taken down.

Redcafe is left-leaning, but I think pretty good at giving good arguments a fair hearing. I think if there are some, even marginally, meritorious arguments for Brexit, the forum will give them due respect. I just haven't come across many, yet.

 

[VeevaVee]

Just to update, the well educated and firmly middle class colleague with mildly racist tendencies I know, who told me he didn't know why he voted Brexit at the time of the referendum, but when pushed as to why anyone would do that came out with a story about a fisherman having to repackage his fish because of EU regulations, still stands firmly by his decision and believes "we should just get fecking out and be done with it".

If that ain't idiocy I dunno what is.

 

[jojojo]

"Well lets post the bits I like in the redcafe"

What did you think of the wine sellers opinion? You know, an actual businessman

I accept his comments regarding his own self-interest - which I understand, though actually multiple grape varieties and naming systems are in place across Europe and the only reason he can't get his voice heard is that grape-growing in the UK is too small a business area to get UK agricultural officials to argue for further local provisions.

However his 4% tariff worry is neither here nor there when faced with actual "WTO terms" reality. Lamb, for example, going to the EU on WTO attracts tariffs starting at 40%, unless (like Iceland, Australia, New Zealand etc) you have a trade agreement with the EU that brings that it down to zero for most of the trade.

Cars entering the EU attract a tariff of 10%, so let's convert that to a (free trade with the US - that we pay for in some other way) model that gives us cheaper Teslas. That's nice but is that actually an advantage for the people working in a Japanese company building cars in the UK for export to Europe and using components from all over Europe. The idea that we trade more with the countries outside the EU is based largely on services and on goods that use the UK as a gateway to Europe.

Very few people will get economic benefits from Brexit and most of them are people with the majority of their financial and business interests based overseas.

 

[RedChip]

Oh dear...

 

[Smores]

If the UK were to leave the EU without a deal, let me be very, very clear. We would not discuss anything with the UK until there is an agreement for Ireland and Northern Ireland, as well as for citizens’ rights and the financial settlement.

That's really fecking bad. If they'd stick to their guns or not given the situation we might all find ourselves in is another matter but the idea of get out and sort it later looks even more foolish

 

[MoskvaRed]

I'll post some evidence of the oppressive attitude to non-Remain voters in here later.

No-one is saying that Leave voters are more welcoming to Remainers. What people are saying that both sides are intolerant of the other, demonise the other, and make any conversation very difficult. Which is the explicit objective of some people in here. The fact that the one side might be worse does not make what the other side is doing a good thing.

The entire atmosphere is toxic. And when people on the other side, or on neither side, say that, the response is to dismiss it as illegitimate or make a sarcastic jibe. Always. There is a fundamental intolerance to that notion.

There is a lack of tolerance but, at the end of the day, if one side is proposing hugely disruptive changes, the onus is on that side to justify the decision rather than the side in favour of the status quo. Unfortunately, aside from that tiny percentage of Leavers who are extreme free market ideologues and want to have a bonfire of regulations, in the last three years I have yet to hear any logically compelling argument for Brexit. It’s a mixture of people with genuine grievances lashing out at the wrong target combined with old folk bemoaning the fact that life used to be much simpler.

 

[RedChip]

Not to be rude but as foreigner living over here for the past 15 years, it was pretty clear that once the UK had a referendum people were going to vote to leave.
To me anyway it was far more shocking that people thought it couldn't happened.

Although I do think the Brexit divide stuff is completely overdone. Hardly anyone I know or talked to since the referendum result cares about brexit, I remember a whole group of us (leave voters and remain voters) were talking about Brexit and within a couple of minutes we all got very bored and talked about the snooker on the telly.

It's hardly mad max over here.

Hence why I said “my perception”. I was either very wrong about the UK or Brexit brought out some of the UK’s darker side. I actually think it is both of these. The problem is now it is out there, however it happened, and the UK is quite bit more toxic.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

It's hardly mad max over here.

There was a funny segment on Channel 4 news where they were talking to people hoarding food in their lofts because of the impending Brexit apocalypse.

The interviewer said: 'why are you hoarding all this, its all produced in Britain?'

The reply was: 'I know but we might get in a situation where we get to the shop and they've run out of coconut milk'

Just about sums up the middle class remain hysteria.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

That's really fecking bad. If they'd stick to their guns or not given the situation we might all find ourselves in is another matter but the idea of get out and sort it later looks even more foolish

This was always the case. Unless the Uk are going to cancel Brexit they've still got to have the withdrawal agreement and these matters have to be resolved at some point.

 

[Penna]

Not to be rude but as foreigner living over here for the past 15 years, it was pretty clear that once the UK had a referendum people were going to vote to leave.
To me anyway it was far more shocking that people thought it couldn't happened.

Although I do think the Brexit divide stuff is completely overdone. Hardly anyone I know or talked to since the referendum result cares about brexit, I remember a whole group of us (leave voters and remain voters) were talking about Brexit and within a couple of minutes we all got very bored and talked about the snooker on the telly.

It's hardly mad max over here.

I realise we're hard-core remainers. I know many people are bored with it all, but I really think it'll kick off again when we actually leave. Some people are already losing their jobs.

 

[horsechoker]

This was always the case. Unless the Uk are going to cancel Brexit they've still got to have the withdrawal agreement and these matters have to be resolved at some point.

Barnier has said they won't talk trade deals until the backstop/border issue is sorted in a no deal scenario.

 

[MadMike]

This should make captain euthanasia happy. Reduced immigration and reduced old people in one neat package.

I just can't

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Barnier has said they won't talk trade deals until the backstop/border issue is sorted in a no deal scenario.

Yes . The problem is that the impression I get is that the Uk parliament expect to have some kind of trade deal at the moment the UK leaves. If they truly want Brexit, sign the WA and discuss the rest afterwards.

 

[Brwned]

There is a lack of tolerance but, at the end of the day, if one side is proposing hugely disruptive changes, the onus is on that side to justify the decision rather than the side in favour of the status quo. Unfortunately, aside from that tiny percentage of Leavers who are extreme free market ideologues and want to have a bonfire of regulations, in the last three years I have yet to hear any logically compelling argument for Brexit. It’s a mixture of people with genuine grievances lashing out at the wrong target combined with old folk bemoaning the fact that life used to be much simpler.

Agreed, for the most part

 

[Walrus]

Honestly what is the point with some of you? It becomes 10 extreme remainers (ironically most are not even from the UK) against 1 leaver which you continually patronise, insult and belittle. Then you proclaim victory because the leaver can't be bothered to make any further points without being insulted about his opinion.

This is pretty much what ive observed from this thread. I voted remain but I similarly got a fair few patronising comments just from saying (and explaining why) I agreed with @Strachans Cigar on a couple of things.

You can look back through my posts in this thread if you dont believe me that I am a remain voter, and I am as passionate about the subject as anyone. A lot of the regulars in this thread however, are in a complete echo chamber where they can collectively nitpick and desperately poke holes in whatever someone else says, and then collectively congratulate themselves whilst questioning why none of the leavers can be bothered to keep responding.

Admittedly I enjoyed watching it at first, clenching my fists and shouting "take that, leaver!" as they got shouted down one by one, but over time (probably due to emotions continuing to rise as the various deadlines have approached/come/gone) it has degenerated from massively biased to simply hostile.

 

[Kentonio]

There was a funny segment on Channel 4 news where they were talking to people hoarding food in their lofts because of the impending Brexit apocalypse.

The interviewer said: 'why are you hoarding all this, its all produced in Britain?'

The reply was: 'I know but we might get in a situation where we get to the shop and they've run out of coconut milk'

Just about sums up the middle class remain hysteria.

Not making any comment on whether food shortages are likely, but stockpiling food wouldn’t theoretically matter where it came from. If there were sudden shortages of imported goods, there would be a massive increase in demand on domestically produced food, which could easily lead to shortages there too. Given that food has a long production time, that could be a serious issue.

 

[MadMike]

Yes . The problem is that the impression I get is that the Uk parliament expect to have some kind of trade deal at the moment the UK leaves. If they truly want Brexit, sign the WA and discuss the rest afterwards.

The "problem" with signing the WA, and the reason hard Brexiteers don't want it, is that the only future deal it can lead to is a soft CU+SM type of exit. Because in the WA is clearly outlined the UK and EU's commitment to no border in Ireland. If the GFA wasn't already compelling enough.

That means the possible future options are:
a) Great Britain is out-out but the backstop becomes permanent (NI is in the SM, sovereignty issues ensue)
b) UK agrees a deal with SM access
c) We get stuck in the WA state indefinitely until future technological solution solves the problem.

I think a) is clearly undesirable and c) is really just the same as b) just not ratified as permanent and with no exit mechanisms. So for those that want simply an FTA with the EU and full sovereignty, it's not acceptable.

Obviously these people haven't explained to us what they plan to do with the Irish border, but you know. Details.

 

[Smores]

This was always the case. Unless the Uk are going to cancel Brexit they've still got to have the withdrawal agreement and these matters have to be resolved at some point.

Well it wouldn't be a withdrawal agreement after we've already left but yeah i take your point. Same shit different name

Basically just saying they'll need to be a hard border under no deal before we talk, which i guess we did already know

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The "problem" with signing the WA, and the reason hard Brexiteers don't want it, is that the only future deal it can lead to is a soft CU+SM type of exit. Because in the WA is clearly outlined the UK and EU's commitment to no border in Ireland. If the GFA wasn't already compelling enough.

That means the possible future options are:
a) Great Britain is out-out but the backstop becomes permanent (NI is in the SM, sovereignty issues ensue)
b) UK agrees a deal with SM access
c) We get stuck in the WA state indefinitely until future technological solution solves the problem.

I think a) is clearly undesirable and c) is really just the same as b) just not ratified as permanent and with no exit mechanisms. So for those that want simply an FTA with the EU and full sovereignty, it's not acceptable.

Obviously these people haven't explained to us what they plan to do with the Irish border, but you know. Details.

Agreed but there is only one solution to the Irish border without breaking the GFA and that is Northern Ireland being part of the CU and SM. Someone had better make up their mind what they want, which is essentially what the EU is saying.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Well it wouldn't be a withdrawal agreement after we've already left but yeah i take your point. Same shit different name

Basically just saying they'll need to be a hard border under no deal before we talk, which i guess we did already know

Yes but the Uk have to sort out the border with or without a deal and with or without a FTA.

 

[dogrob]

I don't think remainers have to justify anything. We were happy with the status quo, we wanted it to continue, we liked being part of Europe with all the benefits that confers. Personally, I see no negatives at all to being a member of the EU.

I was 17 when we had the last referendum, and although I was just too young to vote I was involved in doorstep canvassing on behalf of the "yes" campaign. I've been European for my whole adult life and now I'm at retirement age, it's being taken away from me.

I'm extremely upset about losing my European citizen status, losing my right to vote for MEPs, losing the freedom to easily travel to and live within European countries. I can't think of another domestic political issue that's had such an impact on the way I feel, and I've been voting for 42 years now.

Well said @Penna I have just sent off papers that will allow me to live and work in Germany which I have been doing for the last 28 years, the best thing it is going to cost me money to do this I talked today to a guy who used to work for the same company that I do he is a truck driver who has decided to get German Nationality because he often has to drive to Holland and he told me what you have to pay to become German.

25€ for the Naturalisation Test.
140€ for the language test which you have to do regardless of whether you speak fluent German or not.
255€ for the Naturalisation

Which is a grand total of 420€ and getting a permanent residence permit probably around a 100€ despite the fact that I had a permanent residence permit for EWG states that I got in 1996 until the changes due to the EU. In all honesty both the EU and the UK should have from the start discussed and created reciprocal agreements so that EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in Europe could get either naturalisation or permanent residence with as little fuss and cost as possible and being honest I trust neither to do right by people like us as we are pawns.

Just now I am firmly in the camp on Friday that the EU tells the UK your out go away and sink into obscurity as I am sick, tired and so fed up of this whole farce and will finally know one way or another where I stand, if I wish to visit the UK will I require a visa to travel through Holland etc. etc.

Another thing that has annoyed me is that I never had a vote because I have lived outside of the UK for over 15 years, as long as I possess a British Passport I am a British citizen and as such should have a say.

 

[Stanley Road]

What a fecking idiot!

"I am going to go out of business if I don't get seasonal workers from Europe. I voted not to be able to get seasonal workers from Europe."

This is the level of intellect we have to deal with. Can you explain why seasonal workers will no longer be allowed in from eu?

 

[Cheesy]

This is the level of intellect we have to deal with. Can you explain why seasonal workers will no longer be allowed in from eu?

Is one of the central goals of Brexit not the reduction of EU immigration? If so there will be less migrant workers available if Brexiteers get their wish. Obviously.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

This is the level of intellect we have to deal with. Can you explain why seasonal workers will no longer be allowed in from eu?

He said he was going to get them from Russia or Ukraine.
Hang on a minute, I thought all these foreigners were stealing British jobs.

 

[horsechoker]

Is one of the central goals of Brexit not the reduction of EU immigration? If so there will be less migrant workers available if Brexiteers get their wish. Obviously.

They want foreigners for work but they want them not to be foreign, not to live in Britain, not be near them, not use any resources.

 

[Maticmaker]

Can someone help me out here, for 'Sainthood' to be conveyed on someone doesn't there have to be proof of a miracle being worked in their name?

Well I suspect Theresa May is about to revoke A50 and blame the hapless Jeremy because he won't sign her deal, hence deliver the miracle required to confirm her sainthood status for Remainers.

In one stroke May will become the Joan of Arc of Remainers; unfortunately for her she will be metaphorically 'burnt at the stake' (removed from office and probably the party) by Tories, who will hence forth refer to her as the Wicked Witch of the West.

There will then follow a GE, which with the interference from the Brexit party (i.e. hoovering up enraged leavers votes) and in so doing undermining the Tories to such an extent that Corbyn will win. Jeremy will then have the unenviable job of trying to implement his wonderful election manifesto but without any money, because there will be a mass exodus of capital and its owners from these shores; hence unable to tax the very rich to fund his plans Jeremy will have to tax the middle income earners and indeed all who haven't enough personal wealth to escape a Marxist (if it moves tax it) Government.

Meanwhile back in the Counties/Shires the Tories are undergoing a 'slash and burn' self-purging and are planning rebirth as a one nation party, devoted to constantly panning from the side-lines everything to do with the EU, thereby reclaiming Farage's Brexit followers to the Tory cause of a true hard-line Brexit, their slogan will be "Boris is at the Wheel".

 

[Silva]

Can someone help me out here, for 'Sainthood' to be conveyed on someone doesn't there have to be proof of a miracle being worked in their name?

Well I suspect Theresa May is about to revoke A50 and blame the hapless Jeremy because he won't sign her deal, hence deliver the miracle required to confirm her sainthood status for Remainers.

In one stroke May will become the Joan of Arc of Remainers; unfortunately for her she will be metaphorically 'burnt at the stake' (removed from office and probably the party) by Tories, who will hence forth refer to her as the Wicked Witch of the West.

There will then follow a GE, which with the interference from the Brexit party (i.e. hoovering up enraged leavers votes) and in so doing undermining the Tories to such an extent that Corbyn will win. Jeremy will then have the unenviable job of trying to implement his wonderful election manifesto but without any money, because there will be a mass exodus of capital and its owners from these shores; hence unable to tax the very rich to fund his plans Jeremy will have to tax the middle income earners and indeed all who haven't enough personal wealth to escape a Marxist (if it moves tax it) Government.

Meanwhile back in the Counties/Shires the Tories are undergoing a 'slash and burn' self-purging and are planning rebirth as a one nation party, devoted to constantly panning from the side-lines everything to do with the EU, thereby reclaiming Farage's Brexit followers to the Tory cause of a true hard-line Brexit, their slogan will be "Boris is at the Wheel".

this isn't the stupid fiction thread, it's the stupid thread

 

[horsechoker]

Can someone help me out here, for 'Sainthood' to be conveyed on someone doesn't there have to be proof of a miracle being worked in their name?

Well I suspect Theresa May is about to revoke A50 and blame the hapless Jeremy because he won't sign her deal, hence deliver the miracle required to confirm her sainthood status for Remainers.

In one stroke May will become the Joan of Arc of Remainers; unfortunately for her she will be metaphorically 'burnt at the stake' (removed from office and probably the party) by Tories, who will hence forth refer to her as the Wicked Witch of the West.

There will then follow a GE, which with the interference from the Brexit party (i.e. hoovering up enraged leavers votes) and in so doing undermining the Tories to such an extent that Corbyn will win. Jeremy will then have the unenviable job of trying to implement his wonderful election manifesto but without any money, because there will be a mass exodus of capital and its owners from these shores; hence unable to tax the very rich to fund his plans Jeremy will have to tax the middle income earners and indeed all who haven't enough personal wealth to escape a Marxist (if it moves tax it) Government.

Meanwhile back in the Counties/Shires the Tories are undergoing a 'slash and burn' self-purging and are planning rebirth as a one nation party, devoted to constantly panning from the side-lines everything to do with the EU, thereby reclaiming Farage's Brexit followers to the Tory cause of a true hard-line Brexit, their slogan will be "Boris is at the Wheel".

It will be the greatest heel turn in professional wrestling politics.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

It's like being on a revolving football pitch with Brexit, every time a Brexit argument is debunked the goalposts move and eventually end up back where we started. And around we go, again and again and...

 

[MadMike]

This is the level of intellect we have to deal with. Can you explain why seasonal workers will no longer be allowed in from eu?

Did you miss the part where the EU workers simply stopped coming once their rights and futures were no longer guaranteed? The damage to him is already done.

I find the same in my industry, IT.

 

[Silva]

 

[VeevaVee]

I realise we're hard-core remainers. I know many people are bored with it all, but I really think it'll kick off again when we actually leave. Some people are already losing their jobs.

Already essentially missed out on a new job in the public sector. Basically told I had it, only for it to be delayed until the end of summer. Little birdy who works there told me they're waiting to see what post-Brexit budget is like.

 

[Penna]

Already essentially missed out on a new job in the public sector. Basically told I had it, only for it to be delayed until the end of summer. Little birdy who works there told me they're waiting to see what post-Brexit budget is like.

I'm sorry, that's a shame for you. I hope you still get it.

 

[VeevaVee]

I'm sorry, that's a shame for you. I hope you still get it.

Thanks I'm looking elsewhere though. Possibly a blessing in disguise as I don't really wanna be in the public sector anymore, but more money while I keep looking would've been nice!

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, has released a more detailed statement on this evening’s Brexit talks with the government, in which he reiterates that Labour wants to see the prime minister adopt its five key points in order to reach a cross-party deal:

Today, I held a meeting of our shadow cabinet to discuss the Brexit talks with the government. The exchanges with the government have been serious but our shadow cabinet expressed frustration that the prime minister has not yet moved off her red lines so we can reach a compromise.

The key issues that we must see real movement on to secure an agreement are a customs union with the EU, alignment with the single market and full dynamic alignment of workers’ rights, environmental protections and consumer standards.


So in summary, May hasn't moved and Corbyn hasn't moved. Not one thing has changed.

Please, EU, we really are close to a solution, just a little more time and we'll really not just kick the can down the road.

 

[Cheesy]

If we do (somehow) end up involved in the elections, it'll be interesting to see what stance pro-Brexit types take on it. Will they advocate a boycott, because we're obviously meant to be leaving, or will they try to win some seats anyway, not wanting to lose any EU influence we have until we're officially out?