Westminster Politics

sammsky1

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What will happen to Tory conference now Commons is sitting next week?
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ed-as-mps-tell-of-death-threats-politics-live

The Conservative party is expected to clarify later what impact the decision not to have a mini-recess next week will have on its party conference.

James Cleverly, the chairman, has already said it is not going to be cancelled. Political parties make a huge amount of money from their party conferences, because members and lobbyists have to pay to attend (you can see the Tory charges here - pdf) and so it was always going to go ahead, regardless of what the supreme court decided on prorogation.

But the timetable may have to be rearranged. Boris Johnson was due to speak around lunchtime on Wednesday. Now he will be due in the Commons at that point, for PMQs, and so his speech is likely to be moved. For him to boycott the Commons and send, say, Dominic Raab in his place as a PMQs stand-in would be grossly disrespectful to parliament - although, on those grounds, the idea might appeal to Dominic Cummings. Jacob Rees-Mogg, the leader of the Commons, has told MPs he expects Boris Johnson to be in the house on Wednesday (see 2.45pm), but in the current circumstances, that could easily change.

What is also not clear is whether or not the opposition, aka the “rebel alliance”, will try to seize control of the Commons timetable next week to pass more anti-no-deal Brexit legislation.

Yesterday Labour whips offered the government a non-aggression pact, saying that as long as the Commons sat on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, they would be happy to debate non-contentious business (meaning there would be not need for a three-line whip, and most MPs would be able to go to Manchester). The conference is said to be worth £30m to the Manchester economy, and Labour did not want to take the blame for the city losing out. The government whips did not take up the offer, pushed for a recess instead, and lost the vote.

The business now tabled for Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday (see2.13pm) is non-contentious and in normal circumstances there would be no need for a three-line whip. But does the non-aggression offer still hold? Probably not. That offer was made before Boris Johnson spent three hours in the Commons disrespecting the memory of Jo Cox and using language seen as “inciting hatred towards MPs”. (See 10.50am.) As my colleague Rowena Mason reports, opposition parties are meeting now to discuss what they will do next week. There is no reason to think they won’t want to do all they can disrupt next week for the government.

If the opposition does try to use next week to pass emergency legislation to firm up the Benn Act, then the government will want its MPs in London on a three-line whip. If that is the case, the Tory conference can still go ahead, but a lot of fringe events might look a bit empty.
 

Zen86

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The guy is ****ing dangerous and his Trump brand of divisive politics needs to stop. I hope he runs himself and the Tory party into the ground.
 

SteveJ

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The guy is ****ing dangerous and his Trump brand of divisive politics needs to stop.
Opposition party leaders have finished their meeting where they discussed what more might be done to stop a no-deal Brexit on 31 October. Jo Swinson left the talks early to speak to police about a threat made against one of her young children.
 

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I'm not defending anyone specifically and not denying inflammatory language has been used, all I'm saying is that I have seen and heard inflammatory language and behaviour on BOTH sides of the house. I found the behaviour of the government and the opposition benches unacceptable, as I have for the last 3 years. They are all a self serving rabble in my opinion that need sweeping out of Westminster. Extreme right capitalists on one side and Extreme left socialists on the other all shouting each other down with snide and unprofessional narrative.

And that's it, each side has its own narrative and that is what is driving this situation like the centre of the suns core. Constant fission. There should be proper cross party talks to get through this and it should be done in a professional and dignified way to put an end to this.

I've said before, the world can watch our parliament and I am deeply ashamed of both sides.
The behaviour in Parliament is often boorish and emotive and string language has always been used. It can often be ridiculous.

However, what is happening currently, with a PM and executive deliberately using a strategy of divisive rhetoric portraying any who is not with them as treacherous, mining the seam of Second World War language, is unprecedented. He is actively choosing to portray the infrastructure of legislature of this country as being against the people. All this whilst they have prorogued Parliament unlawfully to achieve their aim at all costs and been forced back to the house by the courts.

This is new and incredibly dangerous. It is not normal and a level above the usual Parliamentary nonsense.
 

sammsky1

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2 things will likely happen in the days ahead:

A pro remain or pro 2nd referendum MP will be violently assaulted or worse.

MPs themselves will be involved in physical altercations.
 

Mr Pigeon

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2 things will likely happen in the days ahead:

A pro remain or pro 2nd referendum MP will be violently assaulted or worse.

MPs themselves will be involved in physical altercations.
I'll add another thing to that list; Johnson having the Daily Mail credit any future threats or attacks on an MP as a false flag incident.
 

Abizzz

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Wait, they even lost the vote on conference recess? (I've missed the news thus far today).

Boris couldn't win if his children were voting on their favorite father...
 

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Wait, they even lost the vote on conference recess? (I've missed the news thus far today).

Boris couldn't win if his children were voting on their favorite father...
Imagine he could have used another 20 or so MPs about now...
 

SteveJ

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Ramp-up the rhetoric = manufactured mandate: 'The people are righteously angry, so we MPs had better get Brexit done.'
 

Mr Pigeon

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Wait, they even lost the vote on conference recess? (I've missed the news thus far today).

Boris couldn't win if his children were voting on their favorite father...
But they're still going ahead with the conference and Boris is going to scurry away from Wednesdays PMQs to talk at it.

The parallels with Trump are astonishing. Big bully who hides from questions in order to give a rousing speech in front of sycophants.
 

Volumiza

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However, what is happening currently, with a PM and executive deliberately using a strategy of divisive rhetoric portraying any who is not with them as treacherous, mining the seam of Second World War language, is unprecedented. He is actively choosing to portray the infrastructure of legislature of this country as being against the people. All this whilst they have prorogued Parliament unlawfully to achieve their aim at all costs and been forced back to the house by the courts.

This is new and incredibly dangerous. It is not normal and a level above the usual Parliamentary nonsense.
I agree with most of your post matey, I really do but there is the other side of the argument that there are people, and they’re not all racist murderers, that feel Boris is fighting FOR them. Those people that voted for Brexit are seeing a genuine democratic victory being blocked by remain parties / MP’s. That behaviour is also considered divisive.

So as I said earlier, there are two narratives being ardently fought out with increasingly volatile language and behaviour. There has got to be some eventual compromise over this issue somewhere.
 

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The strategy being used is a result of the strategies employed by those looking to scupper Brexit. It has come to this high stakes game because there has been no compromise between leave and remain voting MP's.
Are there many really trying to scupper Brexit?

Seems to me like most MP’s are just trying to prevent us crashing out with no deal.
 

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I do think it was particularly tasteless for those grieving a mother, MP and friend to say the best way to honour her memory is to deliver the thing she and her family campaigned against. I think it was a very tasteless way of referring to the memory of a murdered MP, murdered by someone who said “Britain first”, of the far right tendency, which you could argue is being whipped up by this sort of language.
 

sammsky1

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I'll add another thing to that list; Johnson having the Daily Mail credit any future threats or attacks on an MP as a false flag incident.
I used to marvel at the fact that 95% of British MPs were virtually anonymous and could go about their lives relatively normally; footballers had far more intrusion into their personal lives than back bench MPs of the day. And compare that to say Asian democracies like India or Thailand where MPs live behind security and privilege.

The abuse MPs get now is unprecedented and real. BJ and his Brexiters have destroyed this normality in UK, perhaps forever. What’s next: will all MPs now require police protection? It will have long lasting effects on how MPs can interact and remain connected to their constituents.
 

Volumiza

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Are there many really trying to scupper Brexit?

Seems to me like most MP’s are just trying to prevent us crashing out with no deal.
I think there are dude yeah. Some, the Lib Dem’s now are open about this although I think remain are almost as split on the issue as the leave camp.

This needs some maturity now from both sides, it is clearly at boiling point and needs to be resolved but both sides seem more hell bent on digging their heels in than ever.
 

sammsky1

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I think there are dude yeah. Some, the Lib Dem’s now are open about this although I think remain are almost as split on the issue as the leave camp.

This needs some maturity now from both sides, it is clearly at boiling point and needs to be resolved but both sides seem more hell bent on digging their heels in than ever.
I dont see what the issue is in trying to scupper Brexit. 16.1m also voted against it. And if there was a 2nd referendum, REMAIN would win by a country mile.

Everyone know this, hence why the LEAVE camp are so scared of a people’s vote or 2nd referendum. There is ‘no will of the people’: it’s been debunked as complete horseshit.

And I’m delighted so many MPs have the morality to stick by their convictions and not flip flop like tories simply cos they want to stay in power. The maturity required by all is to admit that opinions can change and be open to that.
 

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I dont see what the issue is in trying to scupper Brexit. 16.1m also voted against it. And if there was a 2nd referendum, REMAIN would win by a country mile.

Everyone know this, hence why the LEAVE camp are so scared of a people’s vote or 2nd referendum. There is ‘no will of the people’: it’s been debunked as complete horseshit.

And I’m delighted so many MPs have the morality to stick by their convictions and not flip flop like tories simply cos they want to stay in power. The maturity required by all is to admit that opinions can change and be open to that.
What a load of utter shite. Jesus

Reading things like this make a tiny bit of me hope for the biggest throbbing red white and blue brexit imaginable. Astonishing arrogance and narcissism
 

Abizzz

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But they're still going ahead with the conference and Boris is going to scurry away from Wednesdays PMQs to talk at it.
A parliament without tories might be the way forward to be honest...
The parallels with Trump are astonishing. Big bully who hides from questions in order to give a rousing speech in front of sycophants.
That's an insult to Trump. Trump managed to be on the ticket when an election was held and won that election. Boris is a late loser.


Couldn't parliament theoretically vote to remove all police protections for PM / Ministers if he keeps going like this? (or at least remove the funding for it).
 

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Excellent post. The majority on all sides are behaving totally childishly. And these are the folk we elected to run the country. When they act and behave in such an adversarial manner how the heck can anyone complain when the electorate mimic their behaviour. We might certainly get the politicians we deserve but if anyone claims that these folk are more intelligent than the electorate they purport to represent then my firm belief is that they must be a sandwich short of a picnic.
If you dislike the childish behaviour then I assume you prefer Corbyn? He has been one of the least childish and most mature voice in parliament for some time now. Not resorting to petty insults, trying to raise valid points for discussion etc. He is certainly one of the least adversarial.
 

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The more I think about it, the more I believe the so-called Remain Alliance need to call for a VONC sooner rather than later.
 

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I wonder what the Tory boys in here will be trying to defend next week. I can't even figure out if they know they're just regurgitating lines they hear in the media.

One minute they'll argue there's no need for a GE then Boris pushes for one and suddenly anyone who doesn't want one is frustrating brexit.

The thing is i bet they don't like Trump and will claim to be nothing like Trump supporters.
 

Volumiza

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I dont see what the issue is in trying to scupper Brexit. 16.1m also voted against it. And if there was a 2nd referendum, REMAIN would win by a country mile.

Everyone know this, hence why the LEAVE camp are so scared of a people’s vote or 2nd referendum. There is ‘no will of the people’: it’s been debunked as complete horseshit.

And I’m delighted so many MPs have the morality to stick by their convictions and not flip flop like tories simply cos they want to stay in power. The maturity required by all is to admit that opinions can change and be open to that.
The issue with scuppering brexit is it is scuppering democracy I’m afraid, and if the shoe were on the other foot and remain won, would you be tolerating the scuppering of your democratic victory? I probably know the answer to that.

And how are you so certain that leave wouldn’t win again? The will of the people was already displayed in 2016.

And on the 2nd referendum, does anyone seriously think that would solve anything? What if remain won? Would that automatically mean it is over? What if leave win again? Would remain accept it? Again, I know the answer to both of those already.

And as for opinions changing, I doubt many, if any, have changed opinions, only got more entrenched in them.

It is now time for leave and remain to work this out. It is fine for an MP to stick to their morals and convictions but what if those morals are at odds with the constituents that voted for them?

It’s called democracy Sammsky and it’s a beautiful thing but you are not always on the winning side and I’ve always been able to accept that. If this changes and our elected officials can ignore the democratic choices they wish to, our country will suffer massively in the future.
 
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Abizzz

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:lol: It’s a good job I haven’t got much on today, it’s been a busy day on this thread.

How is it nonsense Abizzz?
By definition democracies can change their mind on anything they decide. In a democratic way. Which is the brexiteers nightmare, because they just want their way and are embarrassing themselves and their country to get it.
 

Volumiza

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By definition democracies can change their mind on anything they decide. In a democratic way. Which is the brexiteers nightmare, because they just want their way and are embarrassing themselves and their country to get it.
That’s very true matey but the country haven’t changed their minds at this point, politicians are doing for them. And as I said, what if remain won a 2nd referendum? Would that end it? It would be an absolute nightmare.
 

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The issue with scuppering brexit is it is scuppering democracy I’m afraid
Is a second referendum undemocratic? Whatever your views on the merits of it are, it is hard to argue that allowing the people to have a confirmatory vote would be undemocratic. Certainly, you cannot rationally argue that it is less democratic than Johnson, voted in by about 0.01% of the population and now the figurehead of a party that was not elected on a No-Deal platform, trying to drag the country out without a deal.
 

Abizzz

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That’s very true matey but the country haven’t changed their minds at this point, politicians are doing for them. And as I said, what if remain won a 2nd referendum? Would that end it? It would be an absolute nightmare.
Unlike the dream we are currently going through...

I'm just saying scuppering brexit has nothing to do with scuppering democracy and anyone who says so either has no understanding of democracy or is deliberately doing it a disservice.
 

Volumiza

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I'm just saying scuppering brexit has nothing to do with scuppering democracy and anyone who says so either has no understanding of democracy or is deliberately doing it a disservice.
So a winning majority voted and the losing minority are scuppering it. What is democratic about that?
 

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No dude, but where does it end?
So your point about "scuppering Brexit" being undemocratic has no basis then, unless you disagreed with anything that I said. If MPs were trying to cancel Brexit and revoke Article 50 without a mandate then that would certainly constitute scuppering Brexit, but preventing an undemocratic leader from crashing out via undemocratic means can hardly be called undemocratic itself.
 

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So your point about "scuppering Brexit" being undemocratic has no basis then, unless you disagreed with anything that I said. If MPs were trying to cancel Brexit and revoke Article 50 without a mandate then that would certainly constitute scuppering Brexit, but preventing an undemocratic leader from crashing out via undemocratic means can hardly be called undemocratic itself.
As it happens I didn’t disagree with your post. But what will a confirmatory vote confirm? More than like the same split as before. Then what?

And I don’t think it will be long before there are moves to revoke article 50.

And as distasteful as I find Boris, you can’t claim he’s being undemocratic if he’s trying to go to a snap election.
 

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Not read up so don't know if this has been covered but the Brexit party broadcast has just been aired in my region


Got a feeling that is going to win quite a few votes. Annoying that Farage has made 'clean break Brexit' a thing.
 

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What a load of utter shite. Jesus

Reading things like this make a tiny bit of me hope for the biggest throbbing red white and blue brexit imaginable. Astonishing arrogance and narcissism
Well, people aways seem to forget all the people who didn't bother to vote. We have to assume that most of those folk weren't interested enough in the proposed change to go out and vote. People who want a change to the status quo will always vote for it, if given the opportunity. 28% of eligible voters didn't vote. That's a lot of people.

In addition, there are many young people who have become eligible to vote since 2016, and many older ones who've died. I think if there was a second referendum, we'd see a very different result.
 

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Agreed, easy.




I can, I think Boris Johnsons behaviour throughout his political career has been deplorable, but that is a claim I will lie at the feet of many MP's, Prime Minister or not. Easy matey.



Yes, he is but I will also level that accusation at Jeremy Corbyn.



I don't agree with that fundamentally, yes he is being very aggressive but I also think the opposition sides are being very aggressive too. Sorry dude, just the way I'm seeing it.



The strategy being used is a result of the strategies employed by those looking to scupper Brexit. It has come to this high stakes game because there has been no compromise between leave and remain voting MP's.



I do the right thing multiple times per day Rams.
Hear hear. Although I still don’t see why it’s necessary to mention Corbyn. Now I’m definitely not a Corbynista, but I can’t recall Corbyn using inflammatory remarks (as leader of the opposition at least) in the Commons. In fact in the debate last night Corbyn was calling on all politicians on all sides to tone down their language.
As for the Brexit strategy, the UK is a parliamentary democracy. People vote for MP’s to govern on their behalf. We even have had a GE after the referendum. So it’s the MP’s duty to scrutinize policies, like it or not. And if the majority of the House of Commons is against Brexit then so be it. Or would you rather live under a dictatorship?!
 

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So a winning majority voted and the losing minority are scuppering it. What is democratic about that?
That isn't happening. The winning majority is incapable of delivering on it's win. Brexiteers are in power and they are failing to deliver what they promised.

And yet they are blaming their own failure on those who are against their objective. They are clowns.
 

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As it happens I didn’t disagree with your post. But what will a confirmatory vote confirm? More than like the same split as before. Then what?

And I don’t think it will be long before there are moves to revoke article 50.

And as distasteful as I find Boris, you can’t claim he’s being undemocratic if he’s trying to go to a snap election.
A confirmatory vote will confirm the public's decision. The first time they voted on whether to Leave or not. The second time they will be asked if they want the terms that have been negotiated following the first result or if they instead now believe that Remaining is better. The difference is if it is to Leave then the deal is in place, that is voted through and that forms the basis of the UK's relations with the EU for the next decade at least. If it's Remain then we revoke A50 and that forms the basis of our relations with the EU.

And yes, you can claim Johnson is being undemocratic because he tried to prorogue parliament for five weeks and he has already made clear his intention to ignore legislation passed by our democratically elected representatives. The opposition are not stupid enough to fall for his offer of an election until it is clear that No Deal is off the table, at least until/unless it has a democratic mandate.
 

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The reporter on North West tonight absolutely ripped Johnson go pieces in a way I haven't seen anyone else to.

At one point he was speechless as she brought up countless examples of him being caught lying.

Was brilliant to watch
 

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Hear hear. Although I still don’t see why it’s necessary to mention Corbyn. Now I’m definitely not a Corbynista, but I can’t recall Corbyn using inflammatory remarks (as leader of the opposition at least) in the Commons. In fact in the debate last night Corbyn was calling on all politicians on all sides to tone down their language.
As for the Brexit strategy, the UK is a parliamentary democracy. People vote for MP’s to govern on their behalf. We even have had a GE after the referendum. So it’s the MP’s duty to scrutinize policies, like it or not. And if the majority of the House of Commons is against Brexit then so be it. Or would you rather live under a dictatorship?!
I mentioned Corbyn only to highlight how there is not one single leader, Boris, Corbyn, Swinson that I would think suitable for office. Currently as a true centrist (and I know I get called out for that) I stand watching the shit flying everywhere and it’s so depressing.

As for parliamentary democracy, of course I get it but Brexit is a strange beast that was put to the people in a referendum. Those MPs are acting at odds with direct instruction from a majority (however slim) of voters so it is very easy for Boris to play the ‘fighting for the people’ card. Parliament has to try and come together somehow.
 

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Well, people aways seem to forget all the people who didn't bother to vote. We have to assume that most of those folk weren't interested enough in the proposed change to go out and vote. People who want a change to the status quo will always vote for it, if given the opportunity. 28% of eligible voters didn't vote. That's a lot of people.

In addition, there are many young people who have become eligible to vote since 2016, and many older ones who've died. I think if there was a second referendum, we'd see a very different result.
Everyone was very confident of a remain victory 3 years ago. There are far too many unknowns to predict anything with certainty.

3 years of brexiters being branded thick racists and the polls haven’t moved much at all. And who exactly is going to front the remain campaign?