SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Classical Mechanic

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In all honesty I'd guess a lot of it is just people trying to reassure themselves that their own leaders are doing things better at a point when it can often be difficult to tell.

Plus countries like the UK and US carried pre-existing narratives into the crisis that were fairly widespread in other countries. In the US' case it was that President was inept, in the UK's case it was the anti-expert British exceptionalism angle that comes from years of the Brexit debate. Those narratives heighten external criticism once the UK and US appear to be struggling more than other countries.
The UK followed its experts. There’s been a few foreign posters in the past few pages alone, Norway and Portugal IIRC that said their governments binned of their own experts advice by locking down early.
 

Prometheus

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Yep, you’d think the way some of these guys are talking that these countries were under a complete dictatorship and had no access to social media, telephones or internet.
Also appears to be a failure to account for the fact the exposure in these places will be far less (at this point in time) than places like Italy, England and Spain for obvious reasons.
The smaller and more isolated towns in general are seeing far less cases but for some reason the theory is that in these same places in Africa there are thousands of 80 year olds laying dead unaccounted for.
Thank you.

In this tragedy I'm noticing a lot of Western incredulity.

- East Asian countries must be doctoring numbers - because they've done far better than Western countries.
- Why hasn't it hit African countries as much? French researchers even suggesting let's test it on Africans to find out.
- It must already be ripping through in the developing world - because no-one would notice thousand of deaths/infections.
 

Mr Pigeon

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In the space of 45 minutes walking with the dog leash in one hand and the baby buggy in the other I;

- had to take a detour twice because a bumbling old fool and his cnut wife were coming the opposite direction and wouldn't cross the road in their motorized scooters, so I had to.

- had to tell a group of junkies who were standing outside their pals front gate shouting over about some cnut called "Tam" who "wouldnae dae feck all like that" to move out of the fecking way and make space. Not sure what it is he wouldn't do but I imagine it's related to the strong smell of piss coming from the Pimp Daddy of the pack.

- got a demand for my name and address by a copper in a patrol car because I wouldn't tell him why I was out except, whilst gesticulating to the baby in the buggy and a dog on a leash, saying "I think it's pretty self evident, officer". Asked him if I was being charged with anything that would require such information, which made him promptly drive off.

- stepped in my own dog's shite.

Overall a 9/10 experience.
 

Josep Dowling

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Be more challenging to the narrative put out by the government.

Nurses are wearing bin bags, I've had to drive 90 miles every other week to screwfix to get disposable FFP3 masks . This isn't because we are wasting PPE, we don't have any. Visors are being sought by ourselves, gowns are being bought on ebay/elsewhere. Yet we are being told today that NHS staff are dying from community transmission and misusing/overusing PPE. That's scandalous.

Currently the Resus council who give medics and NHS staff certification are saying that we need higher forms of PPE due to CPR being aersol generating but public health england guidance disagrees and trusts are siding with PHE despite the evidence and science provided from the internal liaison committee on resuscitation
https://www.resus.org.uk/media/stat...-resuscitation/statement-on-phe-ppe-guidance/

COVID patients on ward have a high risk of needing CPR but doctors are being told to resuscitate them ignoring the guidance from the very organisation who certify us for that procedure and potentially risk getting infection themselves. That's one of many many points of contention. Doctors are currently muzzled from talking about this openly due to threats from managers.

Doctors have been bombarding media channels regarding this scandal and trying to get the media to provide the counter narrative that will let people get a better picture of what's happening on the ground rather than the current situation where the government gets to spew their propaganda unchallenged.
Thanks for the information. I know it’s a horrendous situation for medical staff and I just hope given time eventually there will be enough supplies available to make sure they are kept safe. My mums a recently retired midwife and she’s talking about going back into hospital. I just don’t want her to go and risk her own life.
 

Ekkie Thump

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The article also says "The IHME modelling forecasts that by 4 August the UK will see a total of 66,314 deaths – an average taken from a large estimate range of between 14,572 and 219,211 deaths, indicating the uncertainties around it." So by their own figures, it could be the bottom end which would (already) be under some other European countries. But that doesn't stop a clickbait headline in the midst of a pandemic. Irresponsible

I get media (and people) have political slants but now's not the time for this type of headline. The story is fine (ish)
As far as I can work out the IHME modelling is hot garbage. As of 10th April (2 days more of data!) they've already revised the UK best guesstimate down to 37k. Their previous average is already beyond the current model's upper range confidence interval. I'm pretty much of the opinion that you could follow a trend line with your finger and arrive at a figure range as accurate as the one they spit out of their model.
 

SteveJ

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Their official line/spin with regards to PPE is that frontline are not using this “precious resource” appropriately. Unbelievable how due to a servile media that this Tory party will get away scot free despite committing corporate manslaughter
The public also clapped for the Grenfell firefighters yet it didn't take long for those brave fighters to be blamed by the establishment. Anyone who believes that the structure of British society will radically change in the wake of the virus is completely ignorant of our history.
 

0le

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In the space of 45 minutes walking with the dog leash in one hand and the baby buggy in the other I;

- had to take a detour twice because a bumbling old fool and his cnut wife were coming the opposite direction and wouldn't cross the road in their motorized scooters, so I had to.

- had to tell a group of junkies who were standing outside their pals front gate shouting over about some cnut called "Tam" who "wouldnae dae feck all like that" to move out of the fecking way and make space. Not sure what it is he wouldn't do but I imagine it's related to the strong smell of piss coming from the Pimp Daddy of the pack.

- got a demand for my name and address by a copper in a patrol car because I wouldn't tell him why I was out except, whilst gesticulating to the baby in the buggy and a dog on a leash, saying "I think it's pretty self evident, officer". Asked him if I was being charged with anything that would require such information, which made him promptly drive off.

- stepped in my own dog's shite.

Overall a 9/10 experience.
:D What would have made it a 10/10?
 

Oldham

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I'm from Iceland but lived in Sweden for 10 years and I'm absolutely stunned when talking to my friends in Sweden about their handling of the pandamic. They’re actually very pleased with the Swedish actions and response, even though other Nordic countries are doing a lot better so far.

As of now Iceland and Sweden have similar restrictions in place, but the Swedes have implemented them much later (please correct my if wrong):

  • 20 people gathering limit in Iceland, 50 in Sweden
  • 2m distancing
  • No visitors in hospitals
  • No visitors in elderly dwellings
  • Schools for 6-15 years open (as long as other restrictions are met)
And there are other important similarities like good healthcare, wealthy countries, high education level and generally good infrastructures. Still Sweden has 4x the death rate from this so far.

The big difference in the countries response has been timing of the restrictions, for instance no visitors for the elderly dwelling was Iceland first action 6 weeks ago, but Sweden just took that measure a week ago. Now it seems the virus has hit the elderly bad in Stockholm.

Another difference is testing. In Iceland 10% of the population has been tested both suspected cases, people working in the health care and just general population (indication is around 0,5-0,8% is infected). In Sweden 0,5% has been tested according to “worldometers”.

There also seems to be shortage of PPE in the country…

Been watching some Swedish television and newspaper and there seems to be no critic of these lack of actions and that seems to reflect well in the public opinion.

Only real critic I could see was from 2000 Swedes doctors : https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/04/03/swed-a03.html

Very strange situation indeed. But who knows maybe the virus will get us all in the end, so we might as well let it roam freely.
 

Prometheus

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The UK followed its experts. There’s been a few foreign posters in the past few pages alone, Norway and Portugal IIRC that said their governments binned of their own experts advice by locking down early.
The British government has never been known to take scientific advise without diluting it with politics. They have previously fired scientists like David Nutt for giving scientific advise that contradicted or deviated from government policy. Many others resigned for similar reasons (e.g. Sir Simon Fraser Campbell). The government went on to add the following to their principles of scientific advise:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...principles-of-scientific-advice-to-government
  • government and its scientific advisers should not act to undermine mutual trust
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8413531.stm

This was effectively designed so that experts give advise that aligns well with the political goals of the government.

The way their initial outrage created an immediate outcry from experts everywhere, I think it's likely the initial government decision was disproportionately underpinned by economic considerations rather than by the advise of science experts. It was so bad (blank graphs/pseudo-scientific reasoning) that I don't think it was faithfully based on any scientific advise.
 

Dr. Dwayne

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There won't be much support for serious restrictions long-term. The mood of the population is already changing.

There was an interesting article in the Spiegel on this subject yesterday.

Change of mood in the corona crisis

Dangerous annoyance

So far, the Germans have endured the measures for corona containment in a disciplined manner. A weekly psychogram now reveals an alarming change.


Psychologists have a name for a phenomenon that could soon prove to be a major challenge for Germany's crisis management in Corona times: "Disaster Fatigue". It is a term used to describe the weariness in the face of too much bad news; the feeling of annoyance that makes us rebel against an excess of disaster reports.

Cornelia Betsch is a psychologist at the University of Erfurt and has made the explosive diagnosis. Week after week Betsch evaluates the answers of 1000 respondents, on the basis of which she tries to determine the mood of the Germans during the corona crisis. In the first five weeks of the crisis "everything went well", the psychologist states. Now she has sounded the alarm for the first time.

The evaluation of the current survey is worrying: slowly, people's fear of the rampant corona virus is fading. Confidence that the health care system will be able to cope with the number of Covid-19 patients has grown. This is also reflected in a survey by the Civey opinion research institute. According to the survey, 62 percent of Germans are "clearly" or "rather optimistic" that the country will come through the crisis well.

As fear of the virus wanes, people's economic concerns will come to the fore. Acceptance for the state-imposed ban on contact, for the closure of schools and businesses is crumbling. Discontent is growing, especially among the younger generation. They suffer particularly from boredom, loneliness and fear of the future.

At first everything seemed fine

"In Germany, unlike in many other countries, we rely predominantly on voluntary action," says Betsch. "It is particularly important to recognize such signals early on and to react to them."

At the beginning of March, when it was clear that the Corona pandemic would not be stopped, Betsch decided to draw up a psychogram of the population: She wanted to record as precisely as possible the fears and concerns with which the Germans would react to the virus and the government measures to contain it.

In the meantime, COSMO, as the Erfurt psychologists' study developed in cooperation with the Robert Koch Institute is called, has become an important instrument of epidemic policy. Betsch proudly points out that around 40 other countries around the world have taken the Erfurt method as a model to be able to capture moods in the country as quickly as possible.

Initially, COSMO had mainly reassuring things to report: The Germans' risk awareness increased rapidly, they appeared to be well informed, and there was a great deal of understanding for the government measures. Many fears also proved to be unjustified or exaggerated: "For example, we discovered that the much-lamented corona parties hardly exist. Discrimination and exclusion are also rare," says Betsch.

Rebellion or habituation effect?

However, the evaluation of the sixth COSMO week suddenly showed that something was different: instead of 54 percent before, only 45 percent of those surveyed now state that their thoughts are constantly revolving around the corona virus. Whereas 60 percent of the people had been afraid of the disease in the weeks before, this proportion was now only 52 percent. Conversely, the number of those who consider the measures to be excessive has increased.

Is this a sign of genuine rebellion or just a familiarization effect? Is the impression gaining ground that the worst is already over? Or has the public debate on exit strategies raised expectations that the exit restrictions will soon be lifted? The COSMO data do not provide any information on the causes of the change in sentiment. They only show that something is happening.

Dirk Brockmann of Berlin's Humboldt University can confirm this. He evaluates movement data from mobile phones and found that Germans who have been staying at home for three weeks are leaving their homes again. The data is unmistakable evidence of the reawakening of the urge to move.

On behalf of the Robert Koch Institute, Brockmann evaluates mobile phone data provided by Telekom. This allows him to identify the flow of traffic in the country and thus estimate the routes by which the virus is spreading throughout Germany. As a side effect, he was able to see how the pattern of movement changed during the shutdown: The mobility of the Germans dropped abruptly by around 40 percent.

Then came the call from Erfurt. "Mrs Betsch asked: We see a change in our data. Do you see something in yours too?", Brockmann said. At that time, the Berlin researcher had not yet noticed any effect. Only shortly afterwards an irritated employee approached him: "Look," he said. "There's something funny. Mobility is increasing again."

Betsch and Brockmann compared their findings and were fascinated to see how well they matched. "One may mistrust every record for itself," says Brockmann. "But if there are such similar results from two completely different sources, then it probably won't be a coincidence." Betsch now considers it urgent to react to the change of mood in the country. "We must make people aware that we must not gamble away our profits now," she says.

In fact, in the week before Easter there had been calls for relaxation of regulations and supposed signals of an improvement in the situation. Scientific studies seemed to suggest that children are rarely carriers of the virus and that schools may soon be reopened. The cross-sectional study from Heinsberg, which has since become controversial, assumed that at least there, there was an increased infestation and herd immunity of humans. Politicians also debated a possible exit from the lockdown more intensively.

On the other hand, there are urgent warnings from the scientific community that the measures should not be relaxed, but should even be tightened. A study has also simulated how Easter visits to the family could once again accelerate the spread of the pandemic in Germany and undo the containment achieved so far. Betsch also sees this danger: "We have all incurred high costs so far. If we slack off now, it was all in vain.

tl;dr:
- mobility increasing again since last week
- support for restrictions waning
We're so fecking weak we almost deserve to be annihilated by this virus.

Imagine how people handled WWII. Six years of struggle and we can't even manage three weeks without getting tied of it and having trouble coping.

I guess I can take comfort in the fact that no matter what the circumstances people will invariably make me sick, the pathetic fecks.
 

Sarni

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There won't be much support for serious restrictions long-term. The mood of the population is already changing.

There was an interesting article in the Spiegel on this subject yesterday.

Change of mood in the corona crisis

Dangerous annoyance

So far, the Germans have endured the measures for corona containment in a disciplined manner. A weekly psychogram now reveals an alarming change.


Psychologists have a name for a phenomenon that could soon prove to be a major challenge for Germany's crisis management in Corona times: "Disaster Fatigue". It is a term used to describe the weariness in the face of too much bad news; the feeling of annoyance that makes us rebel against an excess of disaster reports.

Cornelia Betsch is a psychologist at the University of Erfurt and has made the explosive diagnosis. Week after week Betsch evaluates the answers of 1000 respondents, on the basis of which she tries to determine the mood of the Germans during the corona crisis. In the first five weeks of the crisis "everything went well", the psychologist states. Now she has sounded the alarm for the first time.

The evaluation of the current survey is worrying: slowly, people's fear of the rampant corona virus is fading. Confidence that the health care system will be able to cope with the number of Covid-19 patients has grown. This is also reflected in a survey by the Civey opinion research institute. According to the survey, 62 percent of Germans are "clearly" or "rather optimistic" that the country will come through the crisis well.

As fear of the virus wanes, people's economic concerns will come to the fore. Acceptance for the state-imposed ban on contact, for the closure of schools and businesses is crumbling. Discontent is growing, especially among the younger generation. They suffer particularly from boredom, loneliness and fear of the future.

At first everything seemed fine

"In Germany, unlike in many other countries, we rely predominantly on voluntary action," says Betsch. "It is particularly important to recognize such signals early on and to react to them."

At the beginning of March, when it was clear that the Corona pandemic would not be stopped, Betsch decided to draw up a psychogram of the population: She wanted to record as precisely as possible the fears and concerns with which the Germans would react to the virus and the government measures to contain it.

In the meantime, COSMO, as the Erfurt psychologists' study developed in cooperation with the Robert Koch Institute is called, has become an important instrument of epidemic policy. Betsch proudly points out that around 40 other countries around the world have taken the Erfurt method as a model to be able to capture moods in the country as quickly as possible.

Initially, COSMO had mainly reassuring things to report: The Germans' risk awareness increased rapidly, they appeared to be well informed, and there was a great deal of understanding for the government measures. Many fears also proved to be unjustified or exaggerated: "For example, we discovered that the much-lamented corona parties hardly exist. Discrimination and exclusion are also rare," says Betsch.

Rebellion or habituation effect?

However, the evaluation of the sixth COSMO week suddenly showed that something was different: instead of 54 percent before, only 45 percent of those surveyed now state that their thoughts are constantly revolving around the corona virus. Whereas 60 percent of the people had been afraid of the disease in the weeks before, this proportion was now only 52 percent. Conversely, the number of those who consider the measures to be excessive has increased.

Is this a sign of genuine rebellion or just a familiarization effect? Is the impression gaining ground that the worst is already over? Or has the public debate on exit strategies raised expectations that the exit restrictions will soon be lifted? The COSMO data do not provide any information on the causes of the change in sentiment. They only show that something is happening.

Dirk Brockmann of Berlin's Humboldt University can confirm this. He evaluates movement data from mobile phones and found that Germans who have been staying at home for three weeks are leaving their homes again. The data is unmistakable evidence of the reawakening of the urge to move.

On behalf of the Robert Koch Institute, Brockmann evaluates mobile phone data provided by Telekom. This allows him to identify the flow of traffic in the country and thus estimate the routes by which the virus is spreading throughout Germany. As a side effect, he was able to see how the pattern of movement changed during the shutdown: The mobility of the Germans dropped abruptly by around 40 percent.

Then came the call from Erfurt. "Mrs Betsch asked: We see a change in our data. Do you see something in yours too?", Brockmann said. At that time, the Berlin researcher had not yet noticed any effect. Only shortly afterwards an irritated employee approached him: "Look," he said. "There's something funny. Mobility is increasing again."

Betsch and Brockmann compared their findings and were fascinated to see how well they matched. "One may mistrust every record for itself," says Brockmann. "But if there are such similar results from two completely different sources, then it probably won't be a coincidence." Betsch now considers it urgent to react to the change of mood in the country. "We must make people aware that we must not gamble away our profits now," she says.

In fact, in the week before Easter there had been calls for relaxation of regulations and supposed signals of an improvement in the situation. Scientific studies seemed to suggest that children are rarely carriers of the virus and that schools may soon be reopened. The cross-sectional study from Heinsberg, which has since become controversial, assumed that at least there, there was an increased infestation and herd immunity of humans. Politicians also debated a possible exit from the lockdown more intensively.

On the other hand, there are urgent warnings from the scientific community that the measures should not be relaxed, but should even be tightened. A study has also simulated how Easter visits to the family could once again accelerate the spread of the pandemic in Germany and undo the containment achieved so far. Betsch also sees this danger: "We have all incurred high costs so far. If we slack off now, it was all in vain.

tl;dr:
- mobility increasing again since last week
- support for restrictions waning
That’s seriously worrying because it’s almost certain that once everything goes back to normal we will have second outbreak, which could be much worse than the first one too. Enforcing second phase of lockdown would then become very difficult and even more necessary. Will governments start using force to keep people at home then? I don’t think they will, not in Europe or US.

I understand annoyance of people who lost jobs and struggle with payments but I know many who work from home with stable income yet still moan about not being able to go like this for long. From my point of view as long as I keep my job I can do this for as long as it’s needed. We are in 2020, there are many things to do at home to entertain yourself and most countries still allow you to go for a walk etc. I spend minimum 2 hours a day walking my dog in secluded areas, read books, play video games, watch Netflix and work 8-10 hours a day while pocketing good income with decreased monthly costs (even loans have gone down significantly as rates were decreased so for example my car payments are now 2% cheaper). Really I think billions around the world have much tougher life even under normal circumstances. As I said, there are millions of people now across Europe who can rightly be concerned about their jobs and sustainability of living their normal life, they have valid reasons for concern. Not being able to go to a pub or watch football isn’t a real concern.
 

redshaw

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Confirmation


Expectedly a lot of people out today. I saw a convoy of about 20 dog walkers on my street.
 

marktan

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Something that has been of interest so far. Hancock and the medical officers have been banging on about the accuracy of the tests since the start. Does anyone know the accuracy of the tests other countries have been running?
Im sure i have read that some tests from china have been in accurate and sent to other countries. Germany are widely regarded as been the best at testing, are their tests all made in house as it were, and what rate of accuracy do they have..?
I've seen the figure 70% accuracy branded about on a couple of sites, but I'm not sure how much data that figures using to get that result. I had a private test done a couple of weeks ago after my flatmate and I came down with bad symptoms, I had to mail the sample and it took them about a week to receive and actually test the sample, by which point who knows what the state of the sample was like.
 

Wibble

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there’s absolutely no way we’re all staying in permanent lockdown for another 12-18 months. It’s just not possible.
What if that is what is needed? I suspect the world needs to lock down significantly for at least 6 months and then to at least some degree until we have a vaccine. Life won't return to normal for up to 3 or 4 years imo.
 

Shane88

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What if that is what is needed? I suspect the world needs to lock down significantly for at least 6 months and then to at least some degree until we have a vaccine. Life won't return to normal for up to 3 or 4 years imo.
It just won't be obeyed. It's bad enough that we're getting summer weather at the beginning of April, not a cloud in the sky here today and I live 5 minutes from the beach. Very few walkers there so far today but try enforcing that throughout months of sunshine in June, July and August.

Not gonna happen.
 

Brwned

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I’ll say it again, this is necessity not a choice. We don’t get to choose whether we want to live as before or not, we just cannot go back to previous life before there is vaccine or effective treatment. Full lockdown will be lifted but there will have to be serious restrictions for the next couple of years at least (even when there’s vaccine it will take months to distribute it to everyone). If we can have life as before in 2022 we will be incredibly lucky.
Here's what you've said:
This recession will be far worse than 2008 if we are in lockdown for 12-18 months (until vaccine). Much worse. Hell, even 6 months of lockdown, which is IMO the absolute minimum, will hit economy much, much harder.
Lockdowns will not stop in the next two months. They likely won’t stop at all until vaccine is there. I know people are still in denial about this but this is how it will likely play out.
We’ve been in lockdown here for 3 weeks. I am expecting slight relaxing of restrictions around June (restaurants will open for limited capacity, you will be allowed to exercise outside and gather with friends with certain limits e.g. 10 people) and then maybe by the end of year something more significant. Things like international travel, concert and sports with live audience I don’t expect to return this year.
It was an extreme position to believe that 6 months of lockdown was the absolute minimum, and new evidence demonstrated that. Then it was an extreme position that lockdowns wouldn't stop in the next two months, and likely wouldn't stop until vaccine is here. New evidence again demonstrated that, just a couple of days after you said it.
The leaders of Norway, Denmark, Czech Republic and Austria have announced plans to relax coronavirus lockdown restrictions.

Schools and day care centres are set to reopen in Denmark on 15 April in what will be the first steps the country is taking to ease its quarantine rules, while Norway will do so five days later.
You don't need to say it again and again. You hold an extreme position, you're not the voice of reason swimming in a tide of denial.
 

Classical Mechanic

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The British government has never been known to take scientific advise without diluting it with politics. They have previously fired scientists like David Nutt for giving scientific advise that contradicted or deviated from government policy. Many others resigned for similar reasons (e.g. Sir Simon Fraser Campbell). The government went on to add the following to their principles of scientific advise:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...principles-of-scientific-advice-to-government
  • government and its scientific advisers should not act to undermine mutual trust
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8413531.stm

This was effectively designed so that experts give advise that aligns well with the political goals of the government.

The way their initial outrage created an immediate outcry from experts everywhere, I think it's likely the initial government decision was disproportionately underpinned by economic considerations rather than by the advise of science experts. It was so bad (blank graphs/pseudo-scientific reasoning) that I don't think it was faithfully based on any scientific advise.
There were plenty of experts in other countries that had a similar view to the experts in the UK. The outrage seemed more directed at the out of context quotes from Boris that we we‘re going to effectively have a giant pox party to deal with the issue.

Thats not to say that the government haven’t made mistakes but I suspect the core reasons as to why some countries have done better than others will be a lot more complex than the narratives going round on here at the moment.

Regarding demographics for instance, the most populous countries in Europe are

1. Germany 84m
2. UK 68m
3. France 65m
4. Italy 60m
5. Spain 47m

The next most populous western/southern nation is Holland with 17m.

Apart from Germany the worst hit nations are the most populous in Europe. The interesting thing about Germany is that they have 16 federal states within the country that have a lot more autonomy than regions in the UK (not sure about the other nations mentioned), so their response more like a series of smaller nations managing smaller populations as opposed to the Westminster ‘blob’ trying to to coordinate a large country (by European standards). England is also the mostly densely populated or crowded country in Europe which could prove to be another natural disadvantage.

Another seeming outlier in the narrative on here is Belgium. I believe they shutdown really early but have one of the worst deaths per million population rate in the world.

These are just ideas from my own observations but my point is that I feel the final picture will be a lot different to what people are estimating it to be be now.
 

do.ob

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We're so fecking weak we almost deserve to be annihilated by this virus.

Imagine how people handled WWII. Six years of sheuggle and we can't even manage three weeks without getting tied of it and having trouble coping.

I guess I can take comfort in the fact that no matter what the circumstances people will invariably make me sick, the pathetic fecks.
I think you have to view those numbers within the context of what's (not) going on in Germany. What people here read and see is (compared to other countries) low death rate and great testing capacity, you have interactive maps where you can check that hospital load around you is still fine (https://interaktiv.morgenpost.de/corona-deutschland-intensiv-betten-monitor-krankenhaus-auslastung/) and reports which claim it could be vastly increased if need be.

It's all very reassuring and I kind of experience the trend suggested by the study myself. I mean I still keep my (social) distance, I don't meet friends and leave it to the experts to tell me when it's appropriate to lift the shutdown, I understand things could escalate fast if it's done too quickly. But the panic, the immediate fear of the virus, has largely disappeared for now.
 
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Ludens the Red

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Thank you.

In this tragedy I'm noticing a lot of Western incredulity.

- East Asian countries must be doctoring numbers - because they've done far better than Western countries.
- Why hasn't it hit African countries as much? French researchers even suggesting let's test it on Africans to find out.
- It must already be ripping through in the developing world - because no-one would notice thousand of deaths/infections.
It’s been rampant in this thread, I’ve ignored it mostly as I don’t think it’s malicious just some ignorance and the sub conscious of some people in here that crave bad news. For example the insistence that’s it’s ripping through Africa and Asia in particular even though absolutely nothing so far suggests it is. Which you’d think would be received as good news as opposed to denial and insisting on the opposite.

In the space of 45 minutes walking with the dog leash in one hand and the baby buggy in the other I;

- had to take a detour twice because a bumbling old fool and his cnut wife were coming the opposite direction and wouldn't cross the road in their motorized scooters, so I had to.

- had to tell a group of junkies who were standing outside their pals front gate shouting over about some cnut called "Tam" who "wouldnae dae feck all like that" to move out of the fecking way and make space. Not sure what it is he wouldn't do but I imagine it's related to the strong smell of piss coming from the Pimp Daddy of the pack.

- got a demand for my name and address by a copper in a patrol car because I wouldn't tell him why I was out except, whilst gesticulating to the baby in the buggy and a dog on a leash, saying "I think it's pretty self evident, officer". Asked him if I was being charged with anything that would require such information, which made him promptly drive off.

- stepped in my own dog's shite.

Overall a 9/10 experience.
In general the British people, especially the Scottish do not cross the road to avoid a pigeon directly ahead on the pavement.
 

Dante

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There were plenty of experts in other countries that had a similar view to the experts in the UK. The outrage seemed more directed at the out of context quotes from Boris that we we‘re going to effectively have a giant pox party to deal with the issue.

Thats not to say that the government haven’t made mistakes but I suspect the core reasons as to why some countries have done better than others will be a lot more complex than the narratives going round on here at the moment.

Regarding demographics for instance, the most populous countries in Europe are

1. Germany 84m
2. UK 68m
3. France 65m
4. Italy 60m
5. Spain 47m

The next most populous western/southern nation is Holland with 17m.

Apart from Germany the worst hit nations are the most populous in Europe. The interesting thing about Germany is that they have 16 federal states within the country that have a lot more autonomy than regions in the UK (not sure about the other nations mentioned), so their response more like a series of smaller nations managing smaller populations as opposed to the Westminster ‘blob’ trying to to coordinate a large country (by European standards). England is also the mostly densely populated or crowded country in Europe which could prove to be another natural disadvantage.

Another seeming outlier in the narrative on here is Belgium. I believe they shutdown really early but have one of the worst deaths per million population rate in the world.

These are just ideas from my own observations but my point is that I feel the final picture will be a lot different to what people are estimating it to be be now.
Did Boris ever actually use the phrase 'herd immunity'? I don't think he did.

I can only find quotes from a couple of the leading scientists advising him. And even then they were only talking about theory rather than strategy.

Indeed, if you look at the plan from 3 March 2020, there was never any hint of going for heard immunity. We've always had a strategy to delay for as long as possible until a vaccine became ready.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-a-guide-to-what-you-can-expect-across-the-uk
 

The Firestarter

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It’s been rampant in this thread, I’ve ignored it mostly as I don’t think it’s malicious just some ignorance and the sub conscious of some people in here that crave bad news. For example the insistence that’s it’s ripping through Africa and Asia in particular even though absolutely nothing so far suggests it is. Which you’d think would be received as good news as opposed to denial and insisting on the opposite.



In general the British people, especially the Scottish do not cross the road to avoid a pigeon directly ahead on the pavement.
He is not a real pigeon .
 
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As far as I can work out the IHME modelling is hot garbage. As of 10th April (2 days more of data!) they've already revised the UK best guesstimate down to 37k. Their previous average is already beyond the current model's upper range confidence interval. I'm pretty much of the opinion that you could follow a trend line with your finger and arrive at a figure range as accurate as the one they spit out of their model.
I probably could ... but I doubt the Guardian would turn my thoughts into a "UK Government is worse in Europe.... again!!!" clickbait headline. Just shit 'journalism'

Politicising stuff (any paper) is tiresome at the best of times... in the middle of a pandemic, it's a bit sick
 

Classical Mechanic

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Did Boris ever actually use the phrase 'herd immunity'? I don't think he did.

I can only find quotes from a couple of the leading scientists advising him. And even then they were only talking about theory rather than strategy.

Indeed, if you look at the plan from 3 March 2020, there was never any hint of going for heard immunity. We've always had a strategy to delay for as long as possible until a vaccine became ready.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-a-guide-to-what-you-can-expect-across-the-uk
It came from this interview

Well it’s a very, very important question, and that’s where a lot of the debate has been and one of the theories is, that perhaps you could take it on the chin, take it all in one go and allow the disease, as it were, to move through the population, without taking as many draconian measures. I think we need to strike a balance, I think it is very important, we’ve got a fantastic NHS, we will give them all the support that they need, we will make sure that they have all preparations, all the kit that they need for us to get through it. But I think it would be better if we take all the measures that we can now to stop the peak of the disease being as difficult for the NHS as it might be, I think there are things that we may be able to do.

I think it was poor communication from him overall though.
 

C'est Moi Cantona

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I'd love to know how a lockdown for 6 months, or even 12-18 months would work in practice, I'm not saying this isn't what is ideal to really keep the thing at bay, but they'd literally be nothing left to come out to, and the Covid deaths would be minuscule very quickly, or the lockdown wouldn't be working anyway, which would rapidly make it impossible to sustain to most people.

We need to get through this first wave on this full lockdown, and then be set for the second one, but fully armed this time, testing, tracing, criminal records for those who are non compliment, better public understanding, hospitals armed to the teeth, and hopefully some sort of new treatments, which will hopefully be enough to stop what we're seeing now happening again on this scale before the vaccine turns up.
 

Dante

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It came from this interview

Well it’s a very, very important question, and that’s where a lot of the debate has been and one of the theories is, that perhaps you could take it on the chin, take it all in one go and allow the disease, as it were, to move through the population, without taking as many draconian measures. I think we need to strike a balance, I think it is very important, we’ve got a fantastic NHS, we will give them all the support that they need, we will make sure that they have all preparations, all the kit that they need for us to get through it. But I think it would be better if we take all the measures that we can now to stop the peak of the disease being as difficult for the NHS as it might be, I think there are things that we may be able to do.

I think it was poor communication from him overall though.
So he basically mentioned that herd immunity was one of the options that existed, but then argued against it.
 

Sarni

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Here's what you've said:

It was an extreme position to believe that 6 months of lockdown was the absolute minimum, and new evidence demonstrated that. Then it was an extreme position that lockdowns wouldn't stop in the next two months, and likely wouldn't stop until vaccine is here. New evidence again demonstrated that, just a couple of days after you said it.

You don't need to say it again and again. You hold an extreme position, you're not the voice of reason swimming in a tide of denial.
Relaxing restrictions is not equivalent of ending lockdown. Full lockdown cannot last more than 2-3 months but partial lockdown has to stay much longer. Things like mass gatherings will not be allowed for a long time after full lockdown ends, for sure.
 

Sarni

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I'd love to know how a lockdown for 6 months, or even 12-18 months would work in practice, I'm not saying this isn't what is ideal to really keep the thing at bay, but they'd literally be nothing left to come out to, and the Covid deaths would be minuscule very quickly, or the lockdown wouldn't be working anyway, which would rapidly make it impossible to sustain to most people.

We need to get through this first wave on this full lockdown, and then be set for the second one, but fully armed this time, testing, tracing, criminal records for those who are non compliment, better public understanding, hospitals armed to the teeth, and hopefully some sort of new treatments, which will hopefully be enough to stop what we're seeing now happening again on this scale before the vaccine turns up.
Most countries aren’t really equipped to do mass testing or efficient social tracing. I guess what will happen in Poland is that we will have tighter restriction in place after Easter and then gradually lift them in the upcoming months. We will open some services early May to allow them to make money again, e.g. barbers, hairdressers, beauty parlors. Then in June I’d expect restaurants and bars to reopen with limited capacity (50% of full capacity or less). Shopping malls have to reopen in May as we cannot afford to keep them closed but there have to be limits to how many people can be inside as well. If it is steady at that point and we don’t see a spike then this would continue until the end of year IMO, and at one point it may be safe to lift capacity restrictions and allow mass gatherings again but it will be a long while.

From my office work point of view I don’t think I will come back to the office this year. Maybe I’ll do one day in the office per week when it’s allowed but definitely I won’t go back to being there 5 times a week. To be fair as I’m now seeing how efficient work from home can be with a good setup I’m not sure I will ever go back to 5 days in the office per week.
 

Alabaster Codify7

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Relaxing restrictions is not equivalent of ending lockdown. Full lockdown cannot last more than 2-3 months but partial lockdown has to stay much longer. Things like mass gatherings will not be allowed for a long time after full lockdown ends, for sure.
Totally agree but by late June, mass gatherings aside, I think a lot of extreme negative outlook posters are going to be stunned at just 'how normal' things are.
 

Sarni

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Totally agree but by late June, mass gatherings aside, I think a lot of extreme negative outlook posters are going to be stunned at just 'how normal' things are.
Not sure if it’ll be June or later but sometime around Summer I’d guess we will be able to go out almost everywhere. Limited capacity, travel restrictions and ban on mass gatherings will continue though so not everything will be as normal and it will be noticeable.
 

C'est Moi Cantona

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Most countries aren’t really equipped to do mass testing or efficient social tracing. I guess what will happen in Poland is that we will have tighter restriction in place after Easter and then gradually lift them in the upcoming months. We will open some services early May to allow them to make money again, e.g. barbers, hairdressers, beauty parlors. Then in June I’d expect restaurants and bars to reopen with limited capacity (50% of full capacity or less). Shopping malls have to reopen in May as we cannot afford to keep them closed but there have to be limits to how many people can be inside as well. If it is steady at that point and we don’t see a spike then this would continue until the end of year IMO, and at one point it may be safe to lift capacity restrictions and allow mass gatherings again but it will be a long while.

From my office work point of view I don’t think I will come back to the office this year. Maybe I’ll do one day in the office per week when it’s allowed but definitely I won’t go back to being there 5 times a week. To be fair as I’m now seeing how efficient work from home can be with a good setup I’m not sure I will ever go back to 5 days in the office per week.
I don't disagree with how most countries will emerge from this, it can work with testing as the backbone to it, and I think people will accept this scenario very readily. Staggered school timing, reduced week, set classes, etc, that has been mentioned seems like a good idea to get this back up and running as well.

And the last paragraph seems like a positive that might come from this, people been first forced to do it, but then finding a different ways to do things is actually better, and will ultimately benefit the world.