SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

golden_blunder

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This isn't really the same thing to be fair. Convincing a significant number of people they should actually leave their house and go to work isn't really the same as trying to convince them not to vote tory. People voted for Brexit and Boris because they wanted to. No one wants to be stuck in their home for the rest of time, but I have intelligent friends who seem to be behaving as if the air outside is poisoness and anyone who leaves their home is endangering the future of the human race.

A majority of people still don't even seem to understand that lockdown is designed to control the peak of the virus, not get rid of it. You only have to go on any social media platform or read some posts in this thread to see that. People seem to think if we all stay indoors long enough it will just go away, which is just a factual impossibility.

The little differences between a tiny percentage of people going back to work or allowing people out to sunbathe and meet each other actually make a very tiny difference to anything...and I suspect the science is going to make that irrefutable before too long and all these harsher lock down measures are going to seem pointless. The biggest factor where we fecked up with our lockdown was waiting too long to do it. We could have done it 2 weeks earlier with meaures closer to what we have from this week and probably saved a lot of lives.



Yeah it doesn't make much sense to me either as things like chicken pox seem to go around schools very easily...but apparently with a pandemic in general opening or closing schools makes little difference, and with this one in particular kids are much less likely to become infected.

Also every time I've been out running or due to work, to be fair there are kids and teenagers just out playing and mixing with each other anyway. If them being in a school is a problem I don't understand why so many parents are fine with letting them play or hang around together, or think this is somehow any different.

It's definitely not going to be as straight forward as the government seem to want it to be though. I mean for example my boss's kid is meant to be going back to school next month, but his wife is pregnant and on the vulnerable list, so unless they just tell everyone it's ok not to isolate within the next 2-3 weeks, they can't exactly let their kid go back to school and be around hundreds of others, plus have to drop them off and pick them up each day...and I don't see how we're at a stage yet where they can tell people on the at risk list to just go out and about all they want.

To be honest though Geebs I've not seen anything remotely scientific or convincing that tells you any of the harsher lockdown measures have that much impact. The whole thing seems quite bizarre to me still. There's not much consistency to anything. Not letting people near each other outside but then bottle necking them into supermarkets.
I can see where you’re coming from. I know it’s unprecedented blah blah but there seems to be a lot of disjointed thinking, particularly in the U.K. government. A lack of common sense. It’s no wonder people are confused by what helps and what doesn’t or have become bored and do their own thing anyway.

ultimately though I do believe short term lockdowns stop the death count from being higher. The trick is when to open up again.

I suspect it’s going to be a game of open-close tennis with the virus until it dies out. Disruption for portions of the next 18 months at least.
 

noodlehair

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Fresh out of my weekly webinar from Irish College of Physicians.

They had a Swiss epidemiologist/economist comparing outcomes in various countries. One factor that nobody has mentioned in this thread (I think?) is number of care home beds per capita. The higher this figure the higher the mortality. Obviously, median age is related to this but there were relatively elderly countries that had a tradition of not using care homes (e.g. Portugal) with excellent outcomes and younger countries with extensive care home use that did badly (e.g. Belgium)

He also mentioned a growing body of evidence that the more extreme lockdowns don’t have a big enough effect on mortality vs “soft lockdowns” to justify the economic hit. But, unfortunately, countries with soft lockdowns (e.g. Sweden) will still take a huge hit, economically, because they rely on exports which will be fecked by all the other countries economies going South.

As someone who’s always been very pro lockdown this has given me a lot of food for thought...

@Arruda
@Regulus Arcturus Black
@11101
@africanspur
Keep saying this but I'm sure the primary factor behind the stricter and less strict lockdowns is the healthcare system in each country and whether the people in charge there think it will cope.

Sweden has a very good healthcare system so it being over run was never really a major factor for them. For us if we'd taken their approach, we'd have risked running out of spare beds, doctors, nurses etc. In Italy this literally is what happened. In places with no real healthcare system (e.g. India) people were just told not to go out at all.

America is the anomaly for me. I don't really understand their healthcare system but from what I've always presumed about it, any majorly populated area there that gets caught up in this is just going to be severely overun to the point they probably aren't even counting/finding out about half the deaths...and yet their president is basically anti lockdown. There does need to be a balance but if your healthcare system doesn't cope the economy will just collapse around it anyway.

The bit about Sweden's economy is interesting, though I'm guessing it'll still be slightly less fecked as their hospitality sector wont have taken nearly as big of a hit.
 

Zexstream

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Operators say summer holidays will still be possible in 2020, but with strict social distancing measures in place.


 

horsechoker

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Operators say summer holidays will still be possible in 2020, but with strict social distancing measures in place.


Not much point of going unless you have a private villa and don't want to interact with anyone or anything.

Plus

 

noodlehair

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I can see where you’re coming from. I know it’s unprecedented blah blah but there seems to be a lot of disjointed thinking, particularly in the U.K. government. A lack of common sense. It’s no wonder people are confused by what helps and what doesn’t or have become bored and do their own thing anyway.

ultimately though I do believe short term lockdowns stop the death count from being higher. The trick is when to open up again.

I suspect it’s going to be a game of open-close tennis with the virus until it dies out. Disruption for portions of the next 18 months at least.
Our government hasn't been very good at producing the science to back up any of their strategy. When they have produced figures some of them have just been completely made up, and they haven't been clear about what the point in lockdown is either. So many people still seem to think we wont go out again until there's some kind of all clear. There's not a chance that has ever been the plan because it's literally impossible.

Lockdowns do help but it would have worked a lot better if we were actually testing or recording anything properly prior to the past week and a half, and not just apparently making it up as we go along. We managed to stop the NHS being overun fso from that point of view it was a success, but I'm sure a lot of people were infected who could have avoided being if we'd had a clear strategy and acted on it sooner.

It's going to be really tricky getting people back out and back to work now as they just wont believe it's the right time to do it, regardless of whether it is or not.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Keep saying this but I'm sure the primary factor behind the stricter and less strict lockdowns is the healthcare system in each country and whether the people in charge there think it will cope.

Sweden has a very good healthcare system so it being over run was never really a major factor for them. For us if we'd taken their approach, we'd have risked running out of spare beds, doctors, nurses etc. In Italy this literally is what happened. In places with no real healthcare system (e.g. India) people were just told not to go out at all.

America is the anomaly for me. I don't really understand their healthcare system but from what I've always presumed about it, any majorly populated area there that gets caught up in this is just going to be severely overun to the point they probably aren't even counting/finding out about half the deaths...and yet their president is basically anti lockdown. There does need to be a balance but if your healthcare system doesn't cope the economy will just collapse around it anyway.

The bit about Sweden's economy is interesting, though I'm guessing it'll still be slightly less fecked as their hospitality sector wont have taken nearly as big of a hit.
Re the second paragraph, the healthcare system in Northern Italy (where their epidemic began) is one of the wealthiest, most well funded in Europe. Their ICU beds per capita is miles ahead of Sweden. And the UK (obvs!) So it’s a bit more complicated than that, unfortunately.
 

cyberman

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Really encouraging data from Ireland.
We in Donegal had 2 days in row with no new cases a few days ago and thats with an open border to the north. Granted we had police and Guards patrolling said border but if we are doing well then theres no excuse for counties outside of Dublin. Especially with the weather we had and the Derry folk actually staying away from our beaches when asked.
Maybe it wont stop a second wave but, as a country, we really are trying.
 

11101

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Fresh out of my weekly webinar from Irish College of Physicians.

They had a Swiss epidemiologist/economist comparing outcomes in various countries. One factor that nobody has mentioned in this thread (I think?) is number of care home beds per capita. The higher this figure the higher the mortality. Obviously, median age is related to this but there were relatively elderly countries that had a tradition of not using care homes (e.g. Portugal) with excellent outcomes and younger countries with extensive care home use that did badly (e.g. Belgium)

He also mentioned a growing body of evidence that the more extreme lockdowns don’t have a big enough effect on mortality vs “soft lockdowns” to justify the economic hit. But, unfortunately, countries with soft lockdowns (e.g. Sweden) will still take a huge hit, economically, because they rely on exports which will be fecked by all the other countries economies going South.

As someone who’s always been very pro lockdown this has given me a lot of food for thought...

@Arruda
@Regulus Arcturus Black
@11101
@africanspur
I think hes probably got a point in normal circumstances, but lockdowns are the only option when the virus is running free and you have no idea how prevalent it is. Once you know how it behaves and where it really is I'd agree lockdowns arent totally necessary - but that's still on the assumption that you value the economy on a par with human lives.
 

horsechoker

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Bit of light relief for Irish people. Matt Damon has been stranded in Dalkey during lockdown and was finally tracked down by one of our radio stations for an interview. What an incredibly nice bloke.
Matt Damon in a random European location by chance? You'd have to be bourne yesterday to think this is a coincidence
 

DVG7

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Bit of light relief for Irish people. Matt Damon has been stranded in Dalkey during lockdown and was finally tracked down by one of our radio stations for an interview. What an incredibly nice bloke.
this is brilliant. I think a lot of people speak highly of him, definitely one of the nicer celebs.
 

Sarni

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Pretty much everything except gyms and night clubs will be open in Poland starting monday.

Some gastronomy restrictions like 1 person per 4 sqm and 2 meter distance between tables....but seating both indoors and outdoors allowed starting monday.

Feeling like a 5 year old about to get his candy. What a glorious week ahead. Gonna dine out every single night, you never know if/when this could be reversed. Really curious if most population is as eager as excited as I am, or if people are still hesitant to go to bars/restaurants.

From the mood in the city I suspect the latter. Last weekend, it was 23 degrees and full everywhere and less than 30% of people were complying with the mandatory mask wearing law anyways...but time will tell.
I will wait a bit before I’m back in restaurants but no issues at all about going outside. To be fair I’ve actually enjoyed this time at home, I obviously like the fact we can go out again but I probably won’t return to the same frequency of going out for a while. Happy to be able to get a haircut in a week though, been 3 and a half months since I last cut my hair so there’s a bit of a mess on my head right now. I’ll carry on working from home at least until July and then do 1 day per week over Summer. I will probably never go back to office for 5 days a week - maybe 3 maximum.

From what I’ve seen around Kraków most people wear masks here though, personally I wear it when I’m around people but not when I’m walking by myself as I have a bit of difficulties breathing. I do respect others though and won’t put people at risk needlessly. The movement of idiots who think virus doesn’t exist is getting some traction though so I imagine we will eventually be hit a bit harder. Let’s see.
 

Lj82

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Were you ever allowed outside of your room? If not, how did you cope with cabin fever and lack of movement and exercise?
No not at all. We had to stay in the room throughout. It wasn't difficult for me personally. My family was with me and the difficult part was entertaining my toddler.

I did some static exercise to stretch my limbs.

I think mentally, we felt relieved to be finally back in Singapore where we trust the healthcare system and also closer to family. Our last week in the USA was quite stressful. We didn't plan to leave in such a haste, but the airlines were cancelling flights and we ended up taking the last flight out of SFO to SG. Basically only had 3 days to pack and sell our stuff. So mentally we felt good and we didn't mind the restrictions at all. 14 days passed pretty quickly.
 

Flamingo Purple

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Just seen bbc news article. This may never go away? Is this really accurate? This virus may never be cured and no one is immune to it? This is surely the end of society as we know it if this is true.
 

Wibble

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As someone from the Gulf I can tell you Bahrain numbers are likely not real. They are doing worse than us (Kuwait) because the initial arrival of the virus into both countries were religious worshippers coming back from Iran (back when the virus was ravaging Iran) and Bahrain have way more people who regularly attend those ceremonies. Earlier in the pandemic there were videos going viral of them not having enough hospital beds to house cases. You can probably trust the numbers of all Gulf countries except Bahrain and KSA.
I used to live in UAE and you couldn't trust government reporting of anything relating to migrant workers from Pakistan/India/Philippines. A dry dock door burst when I was there. A friend who worked in the hospital counted over 120 bodies but the reports that came out only stated a fraction of that - 13 initially and eventually that number dribbled up to 29. The newspapers printed what they were told to print when something occurred that they wanted to suppress.
 

Sky1981

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Just seen bbc news article. This may never go away? Is this really accurate? This virus may never be cured and no one is immune to it? This is surely the end of society as we know it if this is true.
Wont worry too much about article and studies. There's studies saying otherwise. There's articles saying all sort of things. Most of them are just that, studies. Could be right but could also be pure assumption.

This could always goes both way. Who knows in 3 months someone somewhere found the cure and the world moves on like before.
 

FireballXL5

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Bit of light relief for Irish people. Matt Damon has been stranded in Dalkey during lockdown and was finally tracked down by one of our radio stations for an interview. What an incredibly nice bloke.
We used to spend our summer holidays in Dalkey when we were kids. Props to Matt, very likeable guy.
 
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Just seen bbc news article. This may never go away? Is this really accurate? This virus may never be cured and no one is immune to it? This is surely the end of society as we know it if this is true.
It’s not the end of society man, there has always been a risk that much like the flu, this will be with us forever.
The first hit in that case was always likely to be the worst.
 

africanspur

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Just seen bbc news article. This may never go away? Is this really accurate? This virus may never be cured and no one is immune to it? This is surely the end of society as we know it if this is true.
To be honest, that has always been my 'most likely scenario', that we wouldn't develop a vaccine, certainly not one within any short time frame.

We haven't got one against HIV, we haven't got one against hepatitis C. But life goes on and we find other ways to mediate their effect.

I would be surprised if the majority of people who've had it aren't 'immune' to it, at least for some period of time.

People have also been focusing on the bombshell scenario that the virus may mutate into something more deadly.....and not taking into account that it may well go the way of H1N1 (pdm09) which initially killed hundreds of thousands in 2009 and has since become a seasonal flu.

Society as we know it is probably changed forever now but this current reality (lockdown) is neither sustainable long term nor what our new reality will look like imo. For one thing, almost all governments will be far more prepared with various PH measures for any subsequent rise in cases. But I think we're probably still a while off a typical pre Covid-19 weekend sadly.


*Edited to remove Ebola from list of diseases we don't have vaccines against.
 
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Cardboard elk

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H1N1 is also the same as Spanish Flu, albeit mutated into the less deadly strain in the swine Flu of 2009.

WHO also said that the covid-19 virus may never leave us, this is pure speculation at this time though, a vaccine might be highly effective for all we know.

Edit : Today we treat pneumonia infections from viruses with anitbiotics. Future viruses may/will become more and more deadly due to the populations increasing resistance to antibiotics. many believe the high deaths in for example Italy is due to the high use of antibiotics there, thereof the high resistance already existing in the population.
 
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11101

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To be honest, that has always been my 'most likely scenario', that we wouldn't develop a vaccine, certainly not one within any short time frame.

We haven't gotten one against Ebola, we haven't got one against HIV, we haven't got one against hepatitis C. But life goes on and we find other ways to mediate their effect.

I would be surprised if the majority of people who've had it aren't 'immune' to it, at least for some period of time.

People have also been focusing on the bombshell scenario that the virus may mutate into something more deadly.....and not taking into account that it may well go the way of H1N1 (pdm09) which initially killed hundreds of thousands in 2009 and has since become a seasonal flu.

Society as we know it is probably changed forever now but this current reality (lockdown) is neither sustainable long term nor what our new reality will look like imo. For one thing, almost all governments will be far more prepared with various PH measures for any subsequent rise in cases. But I think we're probably still a while off a typical pre Covid-19 weekend sadly.
I've seen a few people say this but what about this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RVSV-ZEBOV_vaccine
 

Wibble

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To be honest, that has always been my 'most likely scenario', that we wouldn't develop a vaccine, certainly not one within any short time frame.

We haven't gotten one against Ebola, we haven't got one against HIV, we haven't got one against hepatitis C. But life goes on and we find other ways to mediate their effect.

I would be surprised if the majority of people who've had it aren't 'immune' to it, at least for some period of time.

People have also been focusing on the bombshell scenario that the virus may mutate into something more deadly.....and not taking into account that it may well go the way of H1N1 (pdm09) which initially killed hundreds of thousands in 2009 and has since become a seasonal flu.

Society as we know it is probably changed forever now but this current reality (lockdown) is neither sustainable long term nor what our new reality will look like imo. For one thing, almost all governments will be far more prepared with various PH measures for any subsequent rise in cases. But I think we're probably still a while off a typical pre Covid-19 weekend sadly.
There seems to be some optimistic news in fairly informed circles that a vaccine may be nearer that we thought.
https://www.afr.com/life-and-luxury...el-prize-and-i-don-t-give-a-s-20200506-p54qhb

It isn't a given but I'd be surprised if the majority of people who have had it aren't wholey or partially immune for a year or three as an immune response is usual and the virus is mutating slowly, as is normal with rna viruses.

As you say viruses normally slowly mutate to be less deadly, as killing your host reduces their evolutionary fitness.
 

Arruda

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Fresh out of my weekly webinar from Irish College of Physicians.

They had a Swiss epidemiologist/economist comparing outcomes in various countries. One factor that nobody has mentioned in this thread (I think?) is number of care home beds per capita. The higher this figure the higher the mortality. Obviously, median age is related to this but there were relatively elderly countries that had a tradition of not using care homes (e.g. Portugal) with excellent outcomes and younger countries with extensive care home use that did badly (e.g. Belgium)

He also mentioned a growing body of evidence that the more extreme lockdowns don’t have a big enough effect on mortality vs “soft lockdowns” to justify the economic hit. But, unfortunately, countries with soft lockdowns (e.g. Sweden) will still take a huge hit, economically, because they rely on exports which will be fecked by all the other countries economies going South.

As someone who’s always been very pro lockdown this has given me a lot of food for thought...

@Arruda
@Regulus Arcturus Black
@11101
@africanspur
I wasn't aware we were in some low number of care homes list, but it makes sense. It has been a matter of discussion how hard it is to get in one (huge waiting lists) and it's something that we'll need to invest a lot in the future. Even private expensive nursing homes are lacking, let alone social or state-owned ones.

Seems a bit of a random tangent to me though, that may explain some mortality numbers but not that much. In Portugal, around 40% of the victims were from nursing homes, that seems quite high to me. Unless countries with a higher number of nursing homes have a significant higher percentage of victims from there it's a theory that falls a bit to the ground. I just looked at the numbers from Sweden and they don't seem to differ that much, percentage wise.

Also, at least from the phenomenon I'm watching here, the number of lockdown skeptics will keep increasing. I pay no heed to them, most of them are just using hindsight. Softer lockdowns were used with some degrees of success in more peripheral countries and they might have worked for everyone all around if everyone had acted earlier. I think Portugal's success comes from a mix of those two, we're a peripheral country (still a lot more central than Sweden, mind - using passengers traffic as the metric) and we acted quite early. Our population also adhered very well, and we were all home before it was an imposed measure anyway. Our lockdown was not as legally binding as I've seen in other countries, but it was smooth, we didn't saw supermarket races likes in the UK and US. Acting early is more importante than acting strongly.

I also think soft lockdowns will be the norm from now on, i.e., somethings we will have to stop doing completely (bars, churches, discos, music festivals, large sports events), but the rest can be done if people are careful. I don't believe this would be enough as a first measure though, because they came too late and it's hard to teach people this middle ground so quickly.

We now understand a lot better how the vírus transmits. My region is excelent for that, as are other smaller semi-closed territories. Basically every one we diagnosed (and we've almost extinguished the thing) can be attributed to a close contact or came from the outside. Co-workers, co-living, friends in parties, and close/long social gatherings will cause aout 95% of transmissions it seems. The few we don't know how they got it (just 3 or 4) included an airport security guard (very exposed on his work, before precautions were imposed) and an homeless guy, who contacted loads of people. Still, with imperfect confinement, the disease was controlled and almost erradicated. So I can only imagine if we "want to live with it" it's quite possible with softer lockdowns, now that we're equipped for it and people are ready to accept some restrictions, like more distance and masks in close environments. I don't believe soft lockdowns were a real alternative though. And, by many prelimionary accounts, Economies seem to be proportionatelly more fecked were they ignored the problem (i.e., USA and Brazil won't benefit at all from letting the diesase break through, as the chaos it causes might be a lot worse, in GDP lost, than controlled lockdown). I'm very curious to see how this economics thing will pan out comparatively by the end of the year. My guess is that protecting your citizens pays not only in lives but in the economy too.
 
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africanspur

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I've seen a few people say this but what about this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RVSV-ZEBOV_vaccine
You're right, that vaccine has now been approved and seems to have been used to very good effect in the outbreak in the DRC in 2019. Last I'd read on it was in early 2019 when the trial evidence was still a bit flawed and not particularly conclusive imo.

The latest paper seems very good though from just skim reading over it now.

Only emphasises how quickly things move in medicine if you're no longer paying attention to certain areas! I'll go back and edit the post to remove confusion. :)
 

Pogue Mahone

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I wasn't aware we were in some low number of care homes list, but it makes sense. It has been a matter of discussion how hard it is to get in one (huge waiting lists) and it's something that we'll need to invest a lot in the future. Even private expensive nursing homes are lacking, let alone social or state-owned ones.

Seems a bit of a random tangent to me though, that may explain some mortality numbers but not that much. In Portugal, around 40% of the victims were from nursing homes, that seems quite high to me. Unless countries with a higher number of nursing homes have a significant higher percentage of victims from there it's a theory that falls a bit to the ground. I just looked at the numbers from Sweden and they don't seem to differ that much, percentage wise.

Also, at least from the phenomenon I'm watching here, the number of lockdown skeptics will keep increasing. I pay no heed to them, most of them are just using hindsight. Softer lockdowns were used with some degrees of success in more peripheral countries and they might have worked for everyone all around if everyone had acted earlier. I think Portugal's success comes from a mix of those two, we're a peripheral country (still a lot more central than Sweden, mind - using passengers traffic as the metric) and we acted quite early. Our population also adhered very well, and we were all home before it was an imposed measure anyway. Our lockdown was not as legally binding as I've seen in other countries, but it was smooth, we didn't saw supermarket races likes in the UK and US. Acting early is more importante than acting strongly.

I also think soft lockdowns will be the norm from now on, i.e., somethings we will have to stop doing completely (bars, churches, discos, music festivals, large sports events), but the rest can be done if people are careful. I don't believe this would be enough as a first measure though, because they came too late and it's hard to teach people this middle ground so quickly.

We now understand a lot better how the vírus transmits. My region is excelent for that, as are other smaller semi-closed territories. Basically every one we diagnosed (and we've almost extinguished the thing) can be attributed to a close contact or came from the outside. Co-workers, co-living, friends in parties, and close/long social gatherings will cause aout 95% of transmissions it seems. The few we don't know how they got it (just 3 or 4) included an airport security guard (very exposed on his work, before precautions were imposed) and an homeless guy, who contacted loads of people. Still, with imperfect confinement, the disease was controlled and almost erradicated. So I can only imagine if we "want to live with it" it's quite possible with softer lockdowns, now that we're equipped for it and people are ready to accept some restrictions, like more distance and masks in close environments. I don't believe soft lockdowns were a real alternative though. And, by many prelimionary accounts, Economies seem to be proportionatelly more fecked were they ignored the problem (i.e., USA and Brazil won't benefit at all from letting the diesase break through, as the chaos it causes might be a lot worse, in GDP lost, than controlled lockdown). I'm very curious to see how this economics thing will pan out comparatively by the end of the year. My guess is that protecting your citizens pays not only in lives but in the economy too.
Just on the nursing homes thing. I think nursing homes were similarly badly hit everywhere. The difference is the % of the elderly population living in them. Countries with the worst mortality per capita tend to have a much bigger proportion of their older citizens living on top of each other in care homes. I had always assumed that the higher the mean age of a population the worse the outcomes. But hadn’t thought that there might also be differences in where the elderly live that drives differring outcomes between countries. Seems obvious but hadn’t occurred to me.

To be clear, that’s not the ONLY reason for inter-country variation. But an important one.
 
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Pogue Mahone

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You're right, that vaccine has now been approved and seems to have been used to very good effect in the outbreak in the DRC in 2019. Last I'd read on it was in early 2019 when the trial evidence was still a bit flawed and not particularly conclusive imo.

The latest paper seems very good though from just skim reading over it now.

Only emphasises how quickly things move in medicine if you're no longer paying attention to certain areas! I'll go back and edit the post to remove confusion. :)
I’ve heard a few R&D gonks say recently that our ability to develop vaccines has taken a massive leap forward in the last 5 years. So the optimism about a vaccine for sars-cov2 is probably justified. If this epidemic happened 5 or 10 years ago we’d have been in much deeper shit.
 

africanspur

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Just on the nursing homes thing. I think nursing homes were similarly badly hit everywhere. The difference is the % of the elderly population living in them. Countries with the worst mortality per capita tend to have a much bigger proportion of their older citizens living on top of each other in care homes than countries with lower mortality. I had always assumed that the higher the mean age of a population the worse the outcomes. But hadn’t thought that there might also be differences in where the elderly live that drives differring outcomes between countries. Seems obvious but hadn’t occurred to me.
This is actually a very good point. I remember lots of people thinking that Italy and Spain were so harshly affected because a larger proportion of their population was old and living in multi-generational households.

Turns out that putting all of your old people in one place and giving them and their carers no protection is actually worse....
 

11101

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You're right, that vaccine has now been approved and seems to have been used to very good effect in the outbreak in the DRC in 2019. Last I'd read on it was in early 2019 when the trial evidence was still a bit flawed and not particularly conclusive imo.

The latest paper seems very good though from just skim reading over it now.

Only emphasises how quickly things move in medicine if you're no longer paying attention to certain areas! I'll go back and edit the post to remove confusion. :)
No worries, i just remember reading about the outbreak and them scrambling to get that approved and manufactured. There's a long list of side effects but none of them compare to what the virus can do.

Ebola has always fascinated me as it looks like the one disease that really does/did have the potential to wipe out millions.
 

2cents

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I’ve heard a few R&D gonks say recently that our ability to develop vaccines has taken a massive leap forward in the last 5 years. So the optimism about a vaccine for sars-cov2 is probably justified. If this epidemic happened 5 or 10 years ago we’d have been in much deeper shit.
Tell it to Emma:

 

Pogue Mahone

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This is actually a very good point. I remember lots of people thinking that Italy and Spain were so harshly affected because a larger proportion of their population was old and living in multi-generational households.

Turns out that putting all of your old people in one place and giving them and their carers no protection is actually worse....
Exactly. It’s interesting to think how much lower the mortality would look like now if governments around the world had got ahead of the curve by prioritising care homes for PPE and really aggressive testing and isolation of staff. Instead we’re seeing the same pattern repeated again and again.

On the plus side, they’ll be better prepared for wave 2. So mortality probably will be a hell of a lot lower.
 

Penna

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This is actually a very good point. I remember lots of people thinking that Italy and Spain were so harshly affected because a larger proportion of their population was old and living in multi-generational households.

Turns out that putting all of your old people in one place and giving them and their carers no protection is actually worse....
And it also ignores the immeasurable benefits of being with your family, who love you and will protect you. I saw my 96-year-old next-door neighbour on her balcony the other day, the first time I've seen her in 2 months. She lives in the same house as her son, his wife and their son, but has her own separate entrance. Normally she walks to the shop on a daily basis, but she has people to do that for her now so she has no worries. She can completely isolate without any detriment.

In care homes you're just one of many and carers may be kind, but it's not the same.
 

Pogue Mahone

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And it also ignores the immeasurable benefits of being with your family, who love you and will protect you. I saw my 96-year-old next-door neighbour on her balcony the other day, the first time I've seen her in 2 months. She lives in the same house as her son, his wife and their son, but has her own separate entrance. Normally she walks to the shop on a daily basis, but she has people to do that for her now so she has no worries. She can completely isolate without any detriment.

In care homes you're just one of many and carers may be kind, but it's not the same.
I had always thought what you describe was the norm in Italy so was surprised to see that care home residents per capita was actually quite high. Is it particularly hight in the North? (hence sod’s law the epidemic hit there first)
 

RedRover

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Just seen bbc news article. This may never go away? Is this really accurate? This virus may never be cured and no one is immune to it? This is surely the end of society as we know it if this is true.
I've seen that article. Whilst its arguable the BBC are just reporting the WHO's comments it doesn't do much for people's mental health.

We may not come up with a vaccine but treatments will most likely improve over time as we know more about it. It may also mutate favourably, which (to the limited extent I understand this) is common with viruses of this type. There are lots of viruses we don't have a vaccine for and we live normal lives.

The implication of these articles seems to be that we'll have to have a "new normal", indefinitely. I personally don't believe that will be the case in the long term. The Virus is not as deadly as we feared it would be. It is not particularly dangerous for the vast majority of the population. If you make those comments some suggest you're heartless or cruel but it is a fact.

The idea that people will exist without socialising with friends, attending live sport, concerts, bars and restaurants is madness. Even the suggestion that the older generations will accept being "shielded" - i.e. locked up and unable to spend their retirement years (which they have worked hard to be able to enjoy) without going on holiday or spending time with family and friends is a nonsense. People will just not accept it, long term.

People do those things above because that's what it means to live. Humans are social animals and eventually we'll accept the risk and get on with it, as we do every day when the vast majority of people in western society.
 

Penna

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I had always thought what you describe was the norm in Italy so was surprised to see that care home residents per capita was actually quite high. Is it particularly hight in the North? (hence sod’s law the epidemic hit there first)
I don't know, Pogue. I know we have a large care home in our small village, but the threshold for taking people seems to be low - the local newsagent moved in after his wife died, but he seemed quite capable of looking after himself (he'd been looking after his wife for years). You also see other residents wandering in and out, so they're not in need of constant care.