Protests following the killing of George Floyd

Sara125 said:
But people defending Churchill themselves in this thread and the Churchill one were the ones saying he’s not as bad as Hitler
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But I'm sure the reason isn't actually empathy with murdered Jews (or non-Jewish Holocaust victims). The reason is deflection of the criticism towards British colonialism and the role the nation and its leaders like Churchill have played in it. Confusing these two motives leads to the "all lives matter" logic against supposedly privileged victims. That really has to be avoided.

Apart from that, I don't think it can be argued that Churchill reached the genocidal levels of Hitler. The problem begins when this is used as an implicit or explicit defense of Churchill - one of the worst and most meaningless defenses imaginable.

Finally, it must also be said that from the perspective of the individual victim, these differences are irrelevant. So this is not meant to establish a hierarchy of victims, but to argue against that fatal logic.
 
Synco said:
But I'm sure the reason isn't actually empathy with murdered Jews (or non-Jewish Holocaust victims). The reason is deflection of the criticism towards British colonialism and the role the nation and its leaders like Churchill have played in it. Confusing these two motives leads to the "all lives matter" logic against supposedly privileged victims. That really has to be avoided.

Apart from that, I don't think it can be argued that Churchill reached the genocidal levels of Hitler. The problem begins when this is used as an implicit or explicit defense of Churchill - one of the worst and most meaningless defenses imaginable.

Finally, it must also be said that from the perspective of the individual victim, these differences are irrelevant. So this is not meant to establish a hierarchy of victims, but to argue against that fatal logic.
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Yeah actually you’re right I see how it comes across
 
Grinner said:
Eh? When was the UK founded? you mean 1700s?
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I was referring to the British Empire. Which was mentioned in the next sentence in that post.

In retrospect maybe would've been more accurate to insert the word modern. And say 'modern' Britain is founded on racism. Meh.
 
Sara125 said:
Yeah actually you’re right I see how it comes across
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Glad I managed to make it plausible somehow. I find it a hugely complicated issue myself.

A few weeks ago, @Cascarino pointed me towards Piers Morgan as a prime example for the nationalist demagogy over Churchill.

This Morgan bit made it rather clear to me how Churchill's WWII role is misused to dismiss criticism against him (and by extension the colonial Empire).
 
One Night Only said:
I deleted it because I thought I'd regret it tbh, as soon as your views don't entirely align with the majority you get "racist" flung at you. It's absolutely disgusting behaviour.
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It's happening left right and center in the thread. Look, some deserve the flak they getting, but others look like they just come in here to fight and criticize any view that isn't there's. It's why I just read and watch videos than engage with any point for long.
Hopefully people can learn to engage civilly and not resort to insults and childish behavior.
 
Victims of police brutality and hate crimes
I think this is a good chance to add the names of others who have been victims of police brutality. Like Breonna Taylor, Tony McDade, Eric Salgado, Nina Pop, Monika Diamond, Dreasjon Reed. Often it is black trans men, and woc who are subjected to the worst of police brutality and hate crimes. It should go without saying that any discussion around police brutality that doesn't address this is bound to fail again. I think it'll be helpful to threadmark and keep track of the sheer amount of stories related to police brutality just in the last few months.
 
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Fluctuation0161 said:
I was referring to the British Empire. Which was mentioned in the next sentence in that post.

In retrospect maybe would've been more accurate to insert the word modern. And say 'modern' Britain is founded on racism. Meh.
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Ok yeah. Well surely colonialism is just capitalist racism. Has there been any example of benevolent colonialism?
 
Sara125 said:
This is a good point. Seems like the genocidal acts of Churchill and King Léopold etc. do not matter or are ‘not as bad’ because their victims were people of colour even though what they did is literally no different to Hitler.
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Jesus fcuking Christ I’ve only read two of your posts and have blocked you already. How old are you? Do you just vomit this shit into a keyboard? Take a break. Go and read a book.
 
Fortitude said:
The surface level racism you refer to is the least of the concerns - tip of the iceberg, you might say - as in a fair and just society those responsible for such actions would be rightly penalised judiciously and become social pariahs, not slapped on the wrist by the powers that be, or tutted at by mates and told to not do it again.
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I don't dispute any part of your comment, I just found this part interesting as I'm not sure what you mean by it. Do you think criminal behaviour should make you an outcast in a society? Or is your view based on the severity of the act, i.e. racism is too heinous of an act to seek reforming at all?
 
entropy said:
I think this is a good chance to add the names of others who have been victims of police brutality. Like Breonna Taylor, Tony McDade, Eric Salgado, Nina Pop, Monika Diamond, Dreasjon Reed. Often it is black trans men, and woc who are subjected to the worst of police brutality. It should go without saying that any discussion around police brutality that doesn't address this is bound to fail again. I think it'll be helpful to threadmark and keep track of the sheer amount of stories related to police brutality just in the last few months.
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First one of those links I clicked on, Nina Pop, gave some info on her (tragic) case and it turns out that it’s got nothing whatsoever to do with police brutality.

Might be a good idea to track the victims of police brutality in this thread but looks like you can’t be trusted to take on the task.

EDIT: Ditto Monika Diamond. You’re obviously so desperate to crowbar in the trans community into a discussion on police brutality you’re willing to make shit up and hope nobody notices. That’s weird.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
First one of those links I clicked on, Nina Pop, gave some info on her (tragic) case and it turns out that it’s got nothing whatsoever to do with police brutality.

Might be a good idea to track the victims of police brutality in this thread but looks like you can’t be trusted to take on the task.
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I think it is important to know her name because she was still a victim of violence. And her case is still not solved. Most of these cases go unsolved especially if they are of trans men or women. Police Brutality and hate crimes against LGBTQ members are more connected than you think.
 
entropy said:
I think it is important to know her name because she was still a victim of violence. And her case is still not solved. Most of these cases go unsolved especially if they are of trans men or women. Police Brutality and hate crimes against LGBTQ members are more connected than you think.
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Whatever, if we’re documenting incidents of police brutality (which you said was your intention) then her name (and Monika Diamond’s) don’t belong on that list.

Unless you’re trying to give the impression that police brutality towards trans people is so rare we should include examples where there wasn’t actually any police brutality?
 
Sara125 said:
:lol: The UK is very much a racist country. The problem with people like you is that you can only see things in extremes so because there are no camps like China (or whatever they have going on over there) or no killing of black men in cold blood like America (even though it does and has happened here just not at the same rate and the same kind of brutality) it means that the UK is not racist? Ask any person of colour, including myself, what we have to deal with. Oh but because people aren’t outright calling us the n word all the time and there is no widespread neo nazi/redneck/white supremacist culture over here it means that we should be lucky and the UK is racism free :rolleyes:

By your logic, can we say that the UK isn’t a cold country because Scandinavian countries are ‘actually cold’?
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What an outrageous statement. What barometer are you using here? What country are you comparing us to or society even in history? By your logic is every single country a racist country in the history of the human race?

Also should we call ourselves a murderous country because thier happens to be murders in the UK every year or for that fact every single country in the world/society theres ever been? And your right maybe the UK is a fascist country too because there happens to be some fascists in this country?

Your very clearly talking in extremes.
 
Gibb11 said:
What an outrageous statement. What barometer are you using here? What country are you comparing us to or society even in history? By your logic is every single country a racist country in the history of the human race?

Also should we call ourselves a murderous country because thier happens to be murders in the UK every year or for that fact every single country in the world/society theres ever been? And your right maybe the UK is a fascist country because there happens to be some fascists in this country too?

Your very clearly talking in extremes.
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It's hardly an outrageous statement, just look at who the prime minister is.
 


Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this.

CrossFit doing damage control after their CEO made a George Floyrd related joke. Reebok have already severed ties apparently.
 
Some compete and utter bollocks being posted in here over the past few pages. The funny thing is they don't actually see the irony in how they are behaving towards others in making their points.

Thread should be closed until everyone calms down.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
First one of those links I clicked on, Nina Pop, gave some info on her (tragic) case and it turns out that it’s got nothing whatsoever to do with police brutality.

Might be a good idea to track the victims of police brutality in this thread but looks like you can’t be trusted to take on the task.

EDIT: Ditto Monika Diamond. You’re obviously so desperate to crowbar in the trans community into a discussion on police brutality you’re willing to make shit up and hope nobody notices. That’s weird.
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Yeah this is becoming a common theme, in here and all over social media. People plucking names and cases out of thin air to try and prove something without doing research. There’s been people on twitter posting about a lad in the U.K. who died after swallowing eighty wraps of coke and it’s been put in the list of ‘police brutality’ related deaths.

It just doesn’t help at all, everyone knows there’s a problem, you can find more than enough cases to make a point but there’s no need to resort to spreading false information and if you’re one of those people who simply reposts everything you see, STOP. Do your own research.
 
nimic said:
It's fair to say that Leopold's Congo adventures put him in the same general category as Hitler.
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If that general category is ‘Despicable people’, then Yes. But that’s not much of a discussion point t.
 
TheReligion said:
Some compete and utter bollocks being posted in here over the past few pages. The funny thing is they don't actually see the irony in how they are behaving towards others in making their points.

Thread should be closed until everyone calms down.
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Instead of closing the thread, people should probably just debate a bit more constructively, especially given that everyone already knows its an emotionally charged subject.
 
Gibb11 said:
What an outrageous statement. What barometer are you using here? What country are you comparing us to or society even in history? By your logic is every single country a racist country in the history of the human race?

Also should we call ourselves a murderous country because thier happens to be murders in the UK every year or for that fact every single country in the world/society theres ever been? And your right maybe the UK is a fascist country too because there happens to be some fascists in this country?

Your very clearly talking in extremes.
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The same systemic and institutional racisms in America exist over here, too, in case you didn’t know. And look no further at the kind of people, their parties and what they stand for that keep being elected into the government. Bare in mind the government are a direct reflection of the people as we vote them in. Need I go on?
 
On another note why is it only racism that there must always be barometers and comparisons for? Why does no one ever say ‘Britain doesn’t produce good footballers because Argentina and Brazil’s products are better’. People just say and acknowledge that Britain produces good footballers full stop.
 
Leroy The Red said:
Yeah this is becoming a common theme, in here and all over social media. People plucking names and cases out of thin air to try and prove something without doing research. There’s been people on twitter posting about a lad in the U.K. who died after swallowing eighty wraps of coke and it’s been put in the list of ‘police brutality’ related deaths.

It just doesn’t help at all, everyone knows there’s a problem, you can find more than enough cases to make a point but there’s no need to resort to spreading false information and if you’re one of those people who simply reposts everything you see, STOP. Do your own research.
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I kind of feel bad for calling that out now. Although in a way my intention was to help. Giving pedants like me a “win” distracts from the point, which is actually a good one.
 
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