Well even the Guardian seem to paint him as a BLM leader, he's clearly heavily involved. Not that I'm particularly bothered, I'm just using him as an example as what the hard core faction of BLM might believe in their world view.
Protests following the killing of George Floyd
- Thread starter Abizzz
- Start date
You don't cite any sources, specifically from a BLM website that lists him or anybody else as a leader, or backs up anything you're saying.
You just continue to say statements without any proof and making references to newspaper articles written to get clicks based off misinformation.
He's involved because he cares about racism, like anybody should be, his views on capitalism or anything else shouldn't get in the way of that & only makes headlines to distract from the main narrative, and you feed right into it. You can't even see it, i'm literally spelling it out for you and you'll still choose to believe BLM is some left-leaning extremist political organisation with lofty ideas about ending capitalism. It's laughable to even write out that statement.
In fact looking at every single post you've made in this thread alone, I can't find a single one where you're not arguing a contrarian view that isn't representative or focused on the issue of BLM. You don't have a single post in here where you share your own original thought, idea, sympathy, support for BLM beyond something along the lines of 'racism is bad, I agree'.
Difficult to have an original view on such a basic principle tbh. You don't seem to agree that BLM is any kind of organisation at all and is purely a collection of individuals fighting racism. My feeling is that when it comes to how BLM want to solve racism their approach is likely too extreme. I don't think (in the UK anyway) any major overhaul is needed of things like the justice system.
I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous take. Yes, there is no-one alive now who directly experienced slavery; but all Black people alive in the US now live in a socio-economic that directly comes from racism, the segregation that followed it, and the lip-service to equity without much actual progress that followed the official end of segregation. Similarly, everyone in the US right now lives in a society that was in many ways built on slavery. The US is now one of the richest countries in the world, and it can thus reasonably be argued that this wealth comes for an important part from how the US as a state used Black people and Indigenous Peoples for their purposes. Consequently, it is extremely reasonable to ask the current US government, as the current representative of the US as a state, to direct a significant portion of that wealth towards making society, communities, and individual lives better for Black people. (I might add there that something similar would apply to Indigenous Peoples: their suppression, eradication, dehumanization, etc. was another factor in US economic growth.)
So no, White people dying in the Civil War does not quite compensate for slavery. (Even ignoring the fact that the North's army also include Black people.)
If you think looting, burning, and destruction have been a daily and dominant occurrence in BLM protests, then you should really reconsider your news sources. There have been massive and continuous protests all across the US, and also in many other countries, since the death of George Floyd. The extent of the rioting has been very small in comparison. So if your sources lead you to believe that BLM is predominantly turned into rioting, then you should try and get your news elsewhere, cause you have been lied to. (As e.g. Fox News absolutely does.)
I'll also go back to comments from @villain, @Adisa, and @JPRouve: there have been protests for decades, yet very little has improved for Black people since segregation officially ended. (I keep saying 'officially', cause far too little actually changed in practice to say that segregation really ended.) @Adisa quoted this "Until we have peace, you won't get justice" line, which I suppose you agree with. But as they pointed out, the point is to get back the peace - and then do nothing, cause 'people obviously aren't that unhappy so why would we bother'? So as @JPRouve keeps asking: what would you do in that circumstance, where peaceful protesting is doing virtually nothing to help you regain your humanity in society? And finally, as @villain, pointed out, MLK understood the violence very well, calling rioting the language of the unheard (in that video that was posting). If you think that's an clear rejection of rioting, then I'm afraid you're simply wrong.
Last edited:
It's not a political organisation which was your first point, and the main 'organising' it does is to raise awareness for protests to take place - once again, I will reiterate, the overwhelming majority of BLM protests are peaceful. There was a stat I posted back in June I think that said of the many thousands of protests which have taken place in the last 7/8 years, over 90-95% (I can't remember exactly) have not resulted in any arrests, injuries or reports of misbehaviour taking place. The protests don't get media attention when they are peaceful, ask yourself why that would be - and who it serves to only cover negative stories about BLM, and who it affects too.
In the UK there's a lot to do, anti-blackness is global. The US is obviously an extreme example, but that's not to say that black people in the UK are anywhere near equality.
Since you like the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/sep/01/young-black-people-jailed-moj-report-david-lammy
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-be-jailed-for-drug-offences-research-reveals
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...brutality-british-problems-black-lives-matter
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...k-evidence-of-everyday-racial-bias-in-britain
Yes, lots to do and there's evidence of conscious racism still today. However I feel like there's a lot of problems with unconscious bias that could be the thing to target. It's touched on in some of your links - longer sentences for BAME people is one. I struggle to believe that the system is actively racist in sentencing, but I can certainly believe underlying prejudice plays a big part.
I'll add another one to the list (US based). One of the most shocking things I've ever read, because I can't believe it's conscious racism which would maybe be easier to deal with...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/17/black-babies-survival-black-doctors-study
yeah, ignorance is strength, freedom is slavery etc.
I agree with unconscious bias being a problem for sure, I personally think unconscious bias is the spark that lights the flame that leads to conscious bias. For example, unconsciously thinking black youths are more dangerous, more likely to use drugs etc leads to more stop & search in black areas, which then creates a stereotype where people are preconceived to think black youths are more associated to crime than other races, this gets fed through the media - so more and more people believe it to be true, those same people will carry those preconceptions when it comes to job interviews & hiring, interacting with black people on the street or in stores etc. It's a loop that continues to spin.
Yes black women are more likely to die in childbirth than white women. This actually stems from slavery - the original ob/gyn practice was invented by using instruments on the black women slaves with no anaesthesia because the belief was that black women didn't feel pain like white women do & they aren't human anyway.
https://www.history.com/news/the-fa...logy-performed-shocking-experiments-on-slaves
So now you have an issue where black people are less likely to be believed about their levels of pain/discomfort when they visit the doctor - and get misdiagnosed, or are more likely to die in their care as a result. Then to compound that fact, as a result of this - you now have generations of black people who simply don't trust doctors and don't get treated - which also leads to further avoidable deaths. Another loop.
This has off-shoots of the Henrietta Lacks story - which was only 50 years ago & the Tuskagee syphilis story - about 90 years ago.
Slavery has so many branches that go beyond just the actual enslavement of black people, its embedded in large parts of society for black people.
Exactly. My grandfather, a child of German immigrants, grew up dirt poor in rural Missouri. After serving in WWII he took a job as a mail clerk at a bank and eventually became a VP at one of the largest banks in the world. My mother was the first person in the family to go to college as a result of this. Do you (not you @Cheimoon, just the proverbial "you") think a POC would have been able to easily have the same career path in 1950-1970 America? Yeah, probably not. Just because "things are better" does not mean they are equal, nor does hypothetical equality under the law mean everyone has equal access to it. I had the opportunity to be where I am today because my mother had opportunity afforded to her by her fathers jump up the economic ladder. POC (African American, latino, Native Americans, etc.) did not have access to that ladder, so is it any surprise they have had to struggle to claw their way up all while those at the top are trying to knock them back down?
That's a great story and perspective - thanks for sharing.
This discussion reminds me of a song by the Canadian band Wintersleep, Beneficiary. Essentially, the song is about how the singer in everything he does is benefitting from how Canadians have treated the Indigenous Peoples that live here. That has been called a genocide, and hence this chorus:
'All my days I wake up, open my eyes
Beneficiary of a genocide
Drive to work all day
Go to sleep at night
Beneficiary of a genocide'
It applies exactly to any White person living in the US today in their relationship to Black people. (And also Indigenous Peoples. And also to me in Canada.)
full lyrics
(Great band btw; although this song isn't quite their best musically and not very representative of their style.)
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
There’s a lot of brilliance to that.
Maybe the ‘we paid for this’ line actually has some legs
There may not be any actual leaders of the movement but each chapter will have people running certain things like the social media and arranging protests. Decisions will also have to be made as to how the donations are spent.
It being decentralised can lead to each chapter protesting for a slightly different set of things, even if the core message remains the same.
A chapter in DC had a list of things they were marching for that were not just based around equality and not everyone is going to agree with everything they wanted. I disagree with your opinion that someone not getting behind them then means they don't support the fight for equality.
I could also understand people having their businesses attacked or looted having an issue with the BLM chapter they are coming across if people are branching off from their protests to do these things.
I’m a mixed race South African. So we understand racism pretty well. Whilst I agree with you about differing views and opinions being good for discussion and debate, I don’t agree with the focus of your points of discussion.
You stated a post above about “progress having been made on racism” like it’s something that we should accept or be proud of. Why should anything other than complete fairness and zero racism be accepted? Even the slightest degree of racism is unacceptable and a cause with fighting/dying for.
Also, the rule of law only applies to those it serves. If it’s those exact rules of law that’s oppressing them and that they’re fighting against, then clearly there’s a contradiction in expecting them to obey those rules and laws? It’s only convenient for those that those rules and laws protect, to want to have everyone abide but those rules and laws, imo.
And the destruction of property is surely a “small” price to pay in the bigger scheme of things and in the attempt in eradicating racism and bringing about real change? Surely to focus on the destruction of property is kind of the wrong thing to really focus on, no? I don’t think anyone here would outright condone violence, looting or damage (innocent people will lose a lot) of property etc. but it’s just “collateral damage” because peaceful protests have not brought about meaningful change.
I don’t post much in this thread but that’s my view on it anyway.
Did the LA riots change much in the US?
Maybe some of our American posters can shed some insight, it's just from the outside it looks like the police brutality never really went away.
Which is why I mentioned those who organise protests, and manage the admin part of any cause. But there’s no centralised voice, mostly volunteers and activists.
Supporting a cause and supporting an individual faction are two different things - protests can often be contextualised to be specific based on the timeline of events that led up to the protest - but ultimately supporting BLM shouldn't just be a 'I think racism is bad', because what does that achieve, and who does that help?
Supporting the cause sounds good, and i'm sure it makes people feel good to know that they agree that people should be treated equally - but it's got to a point where people are restless, so simply doing nothing is not good enough. Like the MLK letter I posted - the moderate white is arguably the biggest block to racial equality.
I think i've made my feelings clear when it comes to the looting - objects & things can be replaced, lives can't & there's almost no societal change that happens peacefully. But also, for the millionth & 1 time over 90% of BLM protests are peaceful - the fact that the media paints it in a very different light is incredibly telling, and I won't feed into that bias, or feel the need to explain it further.
If we are establishing credentials then I am a mixed race minority from a country(I rather not mention) that actively practices racism against minorities and has it enshrined in laws. As a bonus I am also a religious minority so I have the extra flavor of religious and well as racial discrimination. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to being a minority thats officially discriminated.
If you are keen on listening to me explain myself I don't mind starting a dialogue.
It is something to be proud of in the same way that most progress is something to be proud to. I took it as a simple fact. In no way, shape or form should that be construed as "we should sit on our laurels and everything is ok now". I fight racism that prevents people of my color and religion from holding the highest offices and I will continue to do so. Saying that we are halfway up the mountain doesn't mean we are at the top it means we are halfway up the mountain. Progress has been made. Fact.
Do they actually have laws that discriminate against them? Where I come from there are laws saying that certain jobs, opportunities, land, businesses etc are only available to people who have a different skin color than mine. Does the same apply in the US? Bear in mind I know what its like to have real laws that explicitly exclude you on your race and religion and still do to this day and I know there is a difference between official legal racism and racist individuals.
If they choose to fight the system because they believe it is discriminatory against them then I have full respect for that. What I don't have respect for is those that indiscriminately use the protests and an opportunity to burn and loot and steal to enrich themselves. I think this is a perfectly reasonably stand but its a sign of the times where a person who condemns mindless violence is in turn criticized for doing so.
It is a small price to pay when you don't have to pay it sure. Just like saying we need to die for freedom but lets send your children to die not mine.
If you are going to say that peaceful protests have not brought about meaningful change then you must also say that violent protests have failed to do the same because there have been both peaceful and violent protests all this while. Thats why I don't bother to answer those who say peaceful protests have done nothing since the 60s therefore there needs to be violent protests. There have been violence protests as well and in great scale if nothing has changed then you have to say that violent protests are equally useless so why do them? The difference between peaceful and violent protests is that innocent people are harmed and livelihoods are destroyed in violent protests and I condemn this.
I think that racial issues need to be addressed and real equality is the goal of every minority and right thinking person and the fight is ongoing. That does not mean that I can't condemn mindless violence. I hope you see the difference between supporting equal rights and condemning mindless thugs.
Its fair enough I don't think its very different from what I've been saying.
@Mastadon I'm curious as to where you are from? You can pm me if you don’t mind telling me but don’t want to do so on the forum.
I see where you're coming from, I think we obviously just have different views on that issue.
Just for clarification I didn't just mean people who "support" the cause but people who want to get involved. I also wasn't suggesting that protests weren't overwhelming peaceful, I think it sometimes comes across like that because we're sort of narrowing down the conversation.
Rioting/looting I see both sides on. The society we live in puts a lot of value in all this stuff but the inequalities built into it and it's unwillingness to change are what lead to people smashing it up. Plus Americans smash their towns up when they're happy as well.
I think that culture has moved on a lot since the early 90s
Also, phone cameras, the internet and (for better for worse) a profit motive means that police brutality won't ever be brushed under the carpet like it could be previously and the average right minded white person will have a better insight into what the police are really like.
I would say that things changed for the positive mostly on a superficial level. There’s also been a lot of hardening of the same racist ideology.
I believe the riots played some role in getting Nixon re-elected. Also back then nobody/very few condemned mainly korean business owners protecting their property against arson and looting by being heavily armed as the koreans were disproportiantly targeted in Koreatown.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/16/trump-nixon-1968-law-and-order-america
Last edited:
Let me just flip this back on you then. You and those you quoted keep saying nothing has changed since the 60s. There have been multiple violent protests and riots since then so that means violent protests achieved nothing. Since you know that violent protests are completely useless because nothing has changed why would you think that they are useful as a tool of change. The best argument against violent protests is your and others assertion that nothing has changed despite them. Don’t just single out peaceful protests as being useless.
I cant really tell you what to do because I believe a lot of things have changed. You have affirmative action for example to help disadvantaged minorities but I’m not going into that because I can see this being turned into a strawman of me saying that everything is perfect and there is no racism.
I already suggested going on strike as an effective means of protest that damages the economy but that was dismissed as people need to work in order to eat. Not sure how that fits in with rioting and looting maybe people go on paid leave for that.
Last edited:
"Watch the fish Marge..:"
Last edited:
There's a pretty big difference between 'nothing' and 'very little' (they used the latter, so so much for your attempt at a 'gotcha')
Change my words from 'nothing' to 'virtually nothing' then. It makes virtually no difference to the point I'm trying to make does it?
Makes virtually no difference? It literally changes everything. It invalidates the entire point you were trying to make, because you made it dependent on something none of them has said.
Well if you insist on nitpicking and using semantics to detract from the point I’m trying to make, then refer to post 7935. So now you see the use of the word nothing are you satisfied?
Last edited:
Koreatown was targeted because a Korean store owner shot a 15 year old black girl in the back as she was trying to leave the store because the owner believed her to be stealing. Called the girl a witch and claimed she shot her in self defence. Instead the girls body was found with money in her hand.
The jury recommended the store owner get 16 years, however the judge reduced sentencing to 5 years probation and community service, insisting instead that the owner will ‘live with this for the rest of her life’
Once again - no justice, no peace.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Latasha_Harlins
I wonder how many of the owners of the 2,300 Korean-owned stores that were looted or burnt was complicit in this incident.
sounds a little bit Liam Neeson, only with actual victims of the targeting tbh.
You do realise you are stereotyping yourself with all your posts.
I am sure you mean well but you're basically trying to fight racism against one group with more racism against others
If a black person does something bad is it then fair game to take it out on other black people...? isnt that essentially the motto of white supremacists...
Yeah I only came across that earlier on this year, not nice watching someone shot in general nevermind in the back of the head from a very short distance when they're walking away from what was a small scuffle. Was baffled by the 'sentencing' decision on that.
Reading through the wiki page it suggests there were already tensions between the two communities before this.
I wonder how many of the many hundreds of thousands of the black population in LA related to the story of a black person being wrongfully accused of being a thief, being killed, or not getting justice in a system that's supposed to protect & serve them.
"A riot is the language of the unheard" - Martin Luther King
Yes because the store owners would target black customers as thieves, and would follow them around as a result.
Also prospective black business owners, were not given loans in the same neighbourhoods to start their own stores.
You're going to have to be specific here, how am i fighting racism against one group with racism against another?
Some are destined to forever miss the point it seems...
@villain
I don't know how you do it. Holding the views is one thing, and infuriating enough, but people are treating it like a debate. Like it's a game with points to be won.
I don't know how you do it. Holding the views is one thing, and infuriating enough, but people are treating it like a debate. Like it's a game with points to be won.
It's mentally draining for sure, and funnily enough i've held my tongue in the last few weeks - but there are some things which can't continue to go unchecked.