I adviced him on a specific point about color skin. Now if you think that not saying "Hey mister black man" to someone is being politically correct then you may have a problem.
Racism incident in PSG v Istanbul match
- Thread starter Theafonis
- Start date
Of course you can say ’that black dude’ or ’that white man’. It’s nothing racist about that. Demba Ba totally overreacted and is from now on a snowflake.
Read what I said above and compare it with your response.You can call a man by his colorBy all means do it all the time then
Just a reminder (because i think it hasn't been mentioned here) that Pierre Webo played for Nacional (in Uruguay), twenty years ago. He spent more than half his career playing for Spanish speaking sides (Osasuna, Leganes, Mallorca, ...) and is fluent in Spanish. He knows what "negro" (or negru in Romanian) means or how it's used.
This clearly isn't about words having other meanings in certain languages.
This clearly isn't about words having other meanings in certain languages.
I did and I took the piss out of it.
This is the thing, isn't it? I've explained to you why your whataboutism is not only irrelevant, but detrimental to a cause you're pretending you care about, and I've also explained to you that we see it all the time in these debates.
Your only response is to double down. You have no interest in introspection, or in considering why you might be getting the responses from me or others that you are.
So really, what's the point? I have absolutely no reason to believe that you're arguing in good faith, but if you genuinely want to try and rationalise what you've been posting as somehow constructive or interesting then bully for you. It's just a waste of anyone's time to engage with you as if you do care, because you've made it abundantly clear that you don't.
But on the very small off chance you don't realise what you're doing, how about you Google the words whataboutism and racism and read any of the thousands of articles out there discussing how what you're doing is a problem.
I don't address anyone from far, I just go near them and say, hello. Even if they are 20 meters away from me. I am that polite.
And political correctness wasn't for just that quote, it is for your whole reaction in the thread.
And yes, to answer your original question, yes people go, "hey you mister", and if they don't listen, hey you "whatever their unique physical attribute is". If its a white among black, than hey you, hey you white guy, vice versa if black, if one with opticals among non optical, tall guy among short guys or vice versa. Is that a polite manner of addressing someone? Probably not if it offends that addressed person, but neither is the intention of that person malicious.
What whole reaction? I barely reacted to what the referee said outside of calling it awkward and rude.
And no you wouldn't say "hey mister black/white man", no one normal does that. You would go near them if they didn't hear you, as you initially suggested. What the other poster wrote was outlandish and you know it, it has nothing to do with political correctness or racism, it's just not something that people do.
Some people are so perpetually offended and incensed by the mere existence of trans people that they have to bring their issue up in any situation, even in discussions about racism.
Pretty weird.
... Wow.
It has been referred to quite often, mostly in the shortened version you quote, which alters its meaning. In that altered version there's simply no room for interpretation, so people just agreed it's racist and should be looked at by UEFA, and the comments got buried under new ones.
In its full version the statement reads different, and a discussion has briefly taken place. But since then everyone has posted/quoted the shortened version again.
There actually was a discriminatory statement from the Basaksehir bench towards the 4th official minutes earlier ("We are playing very clean ... This is not Romania ... We come from Turkey ... We are not like that."), which can be heard in a long video posted in this thread. But it was not what triggered the red card incident.
The weirdest thing about the incident is the fact that referees didn't expel more people and sooner, I don't know what Webo did or said but I would be surprised if it was worse than the other things we can hear in the various videos.
The fact you consider referee rude, is what am talking about. Two guys are talking between themselves, and one guy says "that black guy", how on earth is that rude or awkward. Only problem is language barrier, because the word sounds similar to the n word in English.
And above is obviously what has been reported till now, because non of us know what exactly happened off the camera. Even the things on camera isn't clear, unless people know Turkish and Romanian, except Ba's words.
And yes it is something people do all the time.
That is how the world works.
If someone is different than the perceived normal, they are addressed that way. Yes it should not be that way, but it is what it is because not everyone is concerned about feeling of others.
See my thought on this situation is, firstly whatever committee set up to investigate this, should investigate it without any bias and outside influence, without getting carried away with ongoing politics.
Secondly, people viewing this as win over racism or statement against racism is not true. Nobody can sure can claim, the referee was being racist, but every media article and website is calling it racist incident or win against racism. When the fact is, it is not yet established what happened is racist.
At most if they want to punish the referee than punish him, ban him for 10 matches or more, but don't put it in racism bracket. Put it in unprofessional bracket, and make it mandate for referees to address by the names of every staff members including players, which wouldn't be tough. And if not names, than numbers, and if staff don't have number, assign them the numbers, so this kind of situation doesn't arise again.
I am offended by the fact you think I am offended by mere existence of trans people.
They weren't between themselves which is the reason why it's rude and awkward, the fourth referee was next to Webo. The fact that you don't get that is baffling but your previous posts kind of give it sense.
And I don't see it as a win against racism and I haven't talked about racism either.
Giving advice in the nicest friendly way to people who are so used to saying those things that they don't think there's anything wrong with it at all, won't work.
They'll just brush it off and forget about it. At worse, they will even label you (who gave that advice) as sensitive. "You're too sensitive, chill a bit. Relax, don't be a sensitive person". It's insulting and doesn't help. Never met those kind of people? The ego ones will get offended and insult back "Who the feck are you boy? Don't you know who I am?! You're not even that good." or the mockings "Yeah yeah, whatever."
Point is giving advices in the nicest way doesn't work like 99% of the time.
So what Demba Ba is right, making a big deal out of it. He did give advice in emotional way because only then people listen, but the official is defending himself and don't want to listen - those are a possible sign he's being defensive and don't know what wrongs he's doing. I'm not an expert of course. Just my two cents.
They'll just brush it off and forget about it. At worse, they will even label you (who gave that advice) as sensitive. "You're too sensitive, chill a bit. Relax, don't be a sensitive person". It's insulting and doesn't help. Never met those kind of people? The ego ones will get offended and insult back "Who the feck are you boy? Don't you know who I am?! You're not even that good." or the mockings "Yeah yeah, whatever."
Point is giving advices in the nicest way doesn't work like 99% of the time.
So what Demba Ba is right, making a big deal out of it. He did give advice in emotional way because only then people listen, but the official is defending himself and don't want to listen - those are a possible sign he's being defensive and don't know what wrongs he's doing. I'm not an expert of course. Just my two cents.
They were talking between themselves in the phone. Doesn't matter where Webo was situated.
Precisely. Spotting and naming the difference in appearance is nothing wrong and does not imply inequality but diversity.
For anyone with common sense it does matter.
The comment on Anglo-phonic view of the world was targeted more towards people on this board (and the English-speaking twitter crowd) that translate everything to English verbatim and then pronounce a comment as racist or not based on a translation and based on English language nuances, sensitivities and history. It wasn't targeted at the actual incident itself.
The incident was a combination of the ref being insensitive and a misunderstanding due to foreign languages being used during a heated argument. I think Demba Ba was entirely right to question what was being said as the 4th ref pointed towards the Webo and said "ala negru" in what was a very heated exchange already. It was very evident from his reaction and words seconds into the exchange ("Why he say negro. You can't say negro") that he thought he was being called the n-word.
Incident starts at 1:30...
Would he have reacted same way if that conversation was in English and the ref said "the black guy". Maybe, we won't know. My guess is it wouldn't be the same level of reaction at least.
Some sensitivity training for the ref for sure but like I said, I think the source of the incident is a misunderstanding during a tense exchange.
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Only in Spanish speaking countries
I didn't say that it was racist. I said that you don't call me "mister black man", as weird as it may be I'm more than my skin color, my personality and my individuality isn't my skin color, if you don't know my name you can talk to me and ask but don't think that calling me "Hey mister black man" will be received positively.
Depends. Context matters.
"Romelu Lukaku is black, Harry Kane is white." -> Nothing wrong.
"Hey you, yeah you black one. Go pick up that garbage." -> Problem
Referee in a CL match (so in a professional context) calling an assistant coach "the black one over there" -> Problem
Not if its a means of identification to someone else and they don't know their names. Being called black shouldn't be taboo. Obviously if you are right there and they call you "the black guy" when it would be easier to go up to you and ask your name then that's just plain rude
Do we know exactly when he said it? I was imagining it was when the ref was talking to him and they were looking at the bench but I’ve realised I’ve assumed that based on a still.
Interested to know if the last two examples are a problem if you replace the word black with the word white?
Questions like these deliberately strip hundreds of years worth of context required to understand the connotations.
In answer to your question, how often do you hear people opting to refer to a white person by the colour of their skin? Would you find it unusual if they did?
You have your answer. It would have taken the assistant a matter of moments to find out Demba Ba’s name or number. Instead, he didn’t think it worth the time or effort and defined him by the colour of his skin.
The main referee was still on the field and moving towards the bench while the fourth referee was in Istanbul's technical area, meters away from Webo.
Great thread to add people to my ignore list
It was one of the coaches at the centre of this, not Demba Ba, so he wouldn't have been identifiable by number and I'm not sure the match officials are going to know the names of every single member of staff on the bench. Regardless of that though, I am fully aware of the historical connotations and why this is a sensitive issue but what I'm trying to get at is if this all in the name of "equality" then do the rules apply to all races, or just one? Also, yes, I have heard white people being referred to as white, I don't think this is a rare thing, especially if in a place where white people are the minority. The post I was referring to had an example of "Hey you, yeah you black one. Go pick up that garbage.", I would see this as rude and aggressive first and foremost before getting into any racial element but whether the reaction would be the same to a white person being spoken to this way as if it were a black person I don't know.
I agree with your point but it was Pierre Webó the assistant manager that the official directed his comments at. It was Demba Ba who heard it and protested it.
Cheers - i don’t know if that makes much difference to my thoughts to be honest! I tend to agree with you that it might be a bit rude to be describing someone’s physical characteristics when they are standing in earshot but probably he thought, as he was speaking in Romanian, it wouldn’t be understood? It still doesn’t seem unreasonable to me that he’d want to identify the person he wanted sent off using physical characteristics. It was then the use of the word “negru” which kicked things off?
Edit - I’m out of posts for the day but just to say (in response to JP below) that I wasn’t disagreeing - I agree with your view of it.
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I agree it's not unreasonable, that's why I merely described it as awkward and rude. I don't see it at the end of world and don't have a particular problem with the referees, the UEFA should have a talk with them about tact and that's about it.
Anyone with common sense, knows this is as far being rude or awkward.
There were plenty things you could address him by. His name, or, more noticeably, his fecking shirt number. It's no difficult.
Demba Ba's point was valid. If it was a white guy, the linesman would never say "that white man over there". He'd identify him in some way.
Accept it for what it is. I'm glad we're pointing things like this out so they stop happening.
Demba Ba's point was valid. If it was a white guy, the linesman would never say "that white man over there". He'd identify him in some way.
Accept it for what it is. I'm glad we're pointing things like this out so they stop happening.
Being a lovely chap and a social person will do wonders for your social life.
It was the assistant coach, no shirt number and not famous so dont think he knew his name.
Not saying pointing to him and saying the black guy was a correct thing to do, mind.
If he is the one black guy in eyesight and everyone else is white, it shouldn't be a problem!
This is going be a bit of a ramble, not even sure where I'm going with this or making a point at all.
He may have said "that white man over there" if there was just one white men amongst a group of non-white man. Probably not though, and I think that's because the official himself was white. If it was non-white official , coming from a majority non-white country pointing at the only white man I think there's quite a high chance that would be said.
I think that's because people will often simply notice who is different to them, or different from the majority if they live in a country where people are generally one race or ethnicity. Certain people will stand out. Now that itself is going into the territory of "othering" I suppose, which as I understand means to categorise people into your group and outsiders. Othering is seen as bad as if you can you do that then you can go from there to my group = good, outside group = bad. Now you don't necessarily have to go there but I think that's seen as the big danger when it comes that sort of thing as far as I understand. You could acknowledge or notice difference without acting that way but it's that fear that drives colour-blindness theories I believe.
Mind you, for anyone to have an identity at all to do with race or ethnicity must by some logic mean they are othering others too. Society doesn't seem to tell a black person not to think of themselves as black, a white person as white etc. currently. In fact it seems that the opposite is true a lot of the time, that we're all supposed to be hyper-aware of our skin colour at all times and those around us. To be aware of such a thing obviously means you need to be able to define what group you are in and by extension those who aren't must be outside it. Basic logic.
I don't know, just random thoughts.
You’re glad but you don’t even know what happened, days after the incident and people are still coming in here saying about numbers and shit.
how about instantly jumping on someone, find out what happened first