Lets hope we can draw a line under this now and just get on with it, but I doubt it, Sky for one will bring it up for the rest of the season and no doubt into next.
F1 2022 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
- Start date
Cost cap is dead.
13 financial errors by RedBull listed in link below.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/r...lty-the-13-errors-listed-by-the-fia/10391662/
13 financial errors by RedBull listed in link below.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/r...lty-the-13-errors-listed-by-the-fia/10391662/
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People still mention how unfair it was that Russia/ Qatar were awarded the World Cup, because FIFA rewarded cheating for years.
A slap on the wrist for an offending team and an apology by a governing body rarely leads to a topic just disappearing and everyone moving on, especially when it culminates in significant benefits for one team. No matter how much that team would like it to.
I imagine we'll continue to hear about it whilst RB are winning and continue to benefit more from rulebreaking/ FIA decisions.
It's completely bizarre how they are allowed to spend the maximum amount in future years, despite overspending this year. Surely once guilty, the overspend should be deducted from future financial years.
A 10% reduction for every 500k overspend (if the team has made a stupid mistake like unclaimed tax credits) is surely not enough, whether it's Mercedes, RB or Ferrari. It should be this PLUS a reduction in their budget cap for future years, so they aren't allowed to overspend in any three year period.
I dont disagree. It will be interesting to see what the other team bosses have to say. I think the paddock will say the penalty isnt sufficient.
Marseille get stripped of european cup
Juventus get relegated
Lance armstrong loses all his titles
Ben johnson loses olympic gold.
RedBull? Laugh their heads off as their cheating goes unpunished in a sporting context.
Actually 10% would be the gap between 1st in the constructors and 3rd, so it is a significant reduction I would say. Wolff this year has commented how the reduced WT time has affected them
Fun and games. Classic F1.
Everyone against RB saying even £500K is massive in performance whilst RB would say it was little and not relevant to performance.
Now the punishment has come out, teams will claim it isn't worth anything whilst RB will say it's a massive hit to performance.
Everyone against RB saying even £500K is massive in performance whilst RB would say it was little and not relevant to performance.
Now the punishment has come out, teams will claim it isn't worth anything whilst RB will say it's a massive hit to performance.
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They will be down to 60% next year as they have finished first in the constructors, doubt it will make a massive difference on the track though.
Nah... They will just move their catering into the wind tunnel and use some unusually shaped plates that they then donate to the red bull museum
Isn't £600k enough to gain one tenth of a second per lap?
In that context £1.8M buys the championship.
Good punishment from the FIA, let's focus on the racing now
Have to wonder how RB managed to bodge up the tax stuff so badly. FIA accepting that had they not overpaid in tax they would only be £400k over budget. How do you forget a £1.4m tax credit.
10% wind tunnel time, i.e. 63% instead of 70%. The FIA will have understood RBR's reasons for breaching, then?
It’s a tiny amount to them to be fair.
In a company like Red Bulls minds it’s probably much easier to just overpay the tax and claim it back down the road, only the timing here has obviously caused big confusion on the cost cap. It’s good to see a reasonable punishment and transparency around the issues, and I’m really glad that everyone can move on from this now.
Amateur stuff from the RB accountants, some of the 13 elements of this minor breach could have been easily clarified in the some 12-24 months prior with the FIA's team.
The FIA penalty feels about right, when the context of tax credit comes into play. The 10% reduction impacts CFD as well as wind tunnel so I'd say it's significant on top of the reduction they have as world champions this year, some 12% less time than Ferrari and 17% less time than Mercedes for 2023. Would of preferred the £7m to come off the budget rather than a financial penalty, as teams like Red Bull have deep pockets that £7m wouldn't touch the sides with.
The FIA penalty feels about right, when the context of tax credit comes into play. The 10% reduction impacts CFD as well as wind tunnel so I'd say it's significant on top of the reduction they have as world champions this year, some 12% less time than Ferrari and 17% less time than Mercedes for 2023. Would of preferred the £7m to come off the budget rather than a financial penalty, as teams like Red Bull have deep pockets that £7m wouldn't touch the sides with.
Ferrari engines already shutting down and it's only been 30 minutes of FP1.
I dont think Ferrari power are going to enjoy Mexico too much.
I dont think Ferrari power are going to enjoy Mexico too much.
Certainly agree with you regarding RB accounting being inadequate.
The fine seems quite small given we are talking about the current F1 leading team.
How significant the wind tunnel test reduction is, we will have to wait and see.
Has justice been done. Not for me.
I do think on top of the reduction and fine, their cost cap should be adjusted for next year by taking off the amount they overspent at the very least. Think they've got off lightly really.
Horners argument however that the overspend was on catering etc and didn't come from the car is total bs. Had they rightly included the costs of catering, sick pay & whatever else, they would have had to adjust the amount they then spent on the car to reach that cap, and therefore spend less.
Horners argument however that the overspend was on catering etc and didn't come from the car is total bs. Had they rightly included the costs of catering, sick pay & whatever else, they would have had to adjust the amount they then spent on the car to reach that cap, and therefore spend less.
Taking into account that tax credits were a fair proportion of the overrun the wind tunnel / CFD punishment seems proportionate enough to me.
What doesn't make sense is the fine as it's essentially meaningless to RB and just goes into FIA profits as far as I can tell. They may as well fine everybody in the future if they actually profit from it - at least promise it to charity or something.
What doesn't make sense is the fine as it's essentially meaningless to RB and just goes into FIA profits as far as I can tell. They may as well fine everybody in the future if they actually profit from it - at least promise it to charity or something.
But it didn't go unpunished, in any context, and surely you understand that not all cheating is the same?
You might just as well argue that City should be stripped of their 21/22 PL title the next time Mahrez cheats by taking a dive because Juve lost their titles when they cheated.
To be fair, there could feasibly be a similarity to those cases. Intravenous drops of red bull to keep engineers going through the night.
Charles has smashed up his gearbox and rear axle. Late night for Ferrari.
So does this recent news mean Lewis was robbed even harder than we first thought?
Definitely. But in the end he still wasn't robbed.
Well, considering there are 3 non Red Bull drivers between Max and Hamilton, it's hard to understand how you can make this all about Hamilton.
Yes
Team Radio: "De Vries behind on out lap"
Carlos Sainz:" Who, What. Debris??"
Carlos Sainz:" Who, What. Debris??"
The overspend was in 2021.
That was funny. Accents and foreign names don't always mixTeam Radio: "De Vries behind on out lap"
Carlos Sainz:" Who, What. Debris??"
The confusion in Carlos' voice was hilariousImagine how much they would have been over if they actually had to race at SPA and replace some parts.
Joke of a judgement but nothing else was expected.
Joke of a judgement but nothing else was expected.
I'm not caught up. Did Mercedes run their new front wing yesterday?
From what I read it was during year 2021 for development of 2022. car, but correct me if I am wrong?
That would be the same for all teams.
Don’t be silly, only Red Bull would have taken any wear there. Mercedes are impervious to degradation in Belgium, everyone knows that
I wasn’t completely listening but it seems they were running it - but with the illegal parts removed.
2021 budget affects 2021 car and beyond. Nobody is starting development from scratch annually.
Just to be clear. You are referring to Spa last year when the so called race was stopped after 2 laps.
That being the case, why would only RB have taken wear there.
I’m not at all, I thought the original posters point was ludicrous, my response was very sarcastic.
Understood.
Maybe the original poster will give us an explanation then.
Red Bull team principal Christian Horner says the team "begrudgingly accept" the FIA's decision to fine them and place restrictions on their car development time following a breach of the 2021 Formula 1 cost cap.
The FIA announced on Friday that Red Bull's 'minor' breach of the $145m limit in Max Verstappen's maiden title-winning campaign had resulted in a $7m fine and a 10 per cent reduction in their wind tunnel time over the next 12 months.
Red Bull reached an 'accepted breach agreement' (ABA) with the FIA on Wednesday, in which the team had to admit their wrongdoing, having come in $2.2m over the cap after inaccurately excluding or adjusting a number of costs. The FIA acknowledged if a tax credit had been correctly applied Red Bull would have only been $0.5m over, resulting in a breach of 0.37 per cent.
"We could have been looking at a 12-month period to have this situation closed," said Horner, describing what may have happened if Red Bull had chosen not to accept the ABA.
"The amount of speculation, commenting and sniping that has been going on in the paddock, we felt that it was in everybody's interest - our interest, the FIA's interest, in F1's interest - to say, 'we close the book', and we close the book here and today.
"We accept the penalties, begrudgingly, but we accept them."
Red Bull were already set to have less time in their wind tunnel - where F1 teams test and perfect aerodynamics on their car - than their rivals due to winning this year's constructors' championship, which they wrapped up last weekend in the USA to follow up Verstappen's second drivers' title.
With their penalty, Red Bull are set to have 25 runs in their wind tunnel next season instead of 28. Ferrari, by reference, will have 30 runs if they finish second in the championship, and Mercedes 32 should they end up third as expected. The constructor in last place has 46 runs.
"The more draconian part is the sporting penalty, which is a 10 per cent reduction in our ability to utilise our wind tunnel and aerodynamic tools," Horner said.
"I've heard people reporting today that it's an insignificant amount. Let me tell you now, that is an enormous amount. That represents anywhere between a quarter and half a second of a lap.
"That 10 per cent will have an impact on our ability to perform on track."
Amid 'cheating' accusations from McLaren boss Zak Brown and fierce criticism from other rivals, Red Bull have protested their innocence throughout, and Horner rejected suggestions that his team owes anyone an apology.
"I think that we're probably due an apology from some of our rivals for some of the claims that they've made," he said.
"We make no apology for the way that we've performed, the way that we've acted. We do take on the chin that there are lessons to be learned, and potentially mistakes have been made in our submission, which with the benefit of hindsight and 20-20 vision, everybody can be a specialist. But there was no intent, there was nothing dishonest, and there was certainly no cheating involved, which has been alleged in certain corners. So I don't feel that we need to apologise.
"We've taken our pounding in public, we've taken a very public pounding through the accusations that have been made by other teams. We've had our drivers booed at circuits, and the reputational damage that's been made by allegations has been significant. The time is now for that to stop and move on."
Horner, who said he is confident Red Bull will be under the cost cap for the 2022 season, admitted the team will have to work "incredibly hard" to overcome the sporting penalty over the next two years.
"It's a handicap," he said. "We are going to have to work incredibly hard. It gives an advantage to our competitors, which is why they were pushing so hard for a draconian penalty.
"We've taken our pounding in public, we've taken a very public pounding through the accusations that have been made by other teams. We've had our drivers booed at circuits, and the reputational damage that's been made by allegations has been significant. The time is now for that to stop and move on."
Horner, who said he is confident Red Bull will be under the cost cap for the 2022 season, admitted the team will have to work "incredibly hard" to overcome the sporting penalty over the next two years.
"It's a handicap," he said. "We are going to have to work incredibly hard. It gives an advantage to our competitors, which is why they were pushing so hard for a draconian penalty.
The FIA announced on Friday that Red Bull's 'minor' breach of the $145m limit in Max Verstappen's maiden title-winning campaign had resulted in a $7m fine and a 10 per cent reduction in their wind tunnel time over the next 12 months.
Red Bull reached an 'accepted breach agreement' (ABA) with the FIA on Wednesday, in which the team had to admit their wrongdoing, having come in $2.2m over the cap after inaccurately excluding or adjusting a number of costs. The FIA acknowledged if a tax credit had been correctly applied Red Bull would have only been $0.5m over, resulting in a breach of 0.37 per cent.
"We could have been looking at a 12-month period to have this situation closed," said Horner, describing what may have happened if Red Bull had chosen not to accept the ABA.
"The amount of speculation, commenting and sniping that has been going on in the paddock, we felt that it was in everybody's interest - our interest, the FIA's interest, in F1's interest - to say, 'we close the book', and we close the book here and today.
"We accept the penalties, begrudgingly, but we accept them."
Red Bull were already set to have less time in their wind tunnel - where F1 teams test and perfect aerodynamics on their car - than their rivals due to winning this year's constructors' championship, which they wrapped up last weekend in the USA to follow up Verstappen's second drivers' title.
With their penalty, Red Bull are set to have 25 runs in their wind tunnel next season instead of 28. Ferrari, by reference, will have 30 runs if they finish second in the championship, and Mercedes 32 should they end up third as expected. The constructor in last place has 46 runs.
"The more draconian part is the sporting penalty, which is a 10 per cent reduction in our ability to utilise our wind tunnel and aerodynamic tools," Horner said.
"I've heard people reporting today that it's an insignificant amount. Let me tell you now, that is an enormous amount. That represents anywhere between a quarter and half a second of a lap.
"That 10 per cent will have an impact on our ability to perform on track."
Amid 'cheating' accusations from McLaren boss Zak Brown and fierce criticism from other rivals, Red Bull have protested their innocence throughout, and Horner rejected suggestions that his team owes anyone an apology.
"I think that we're probably due an apology from some of our rivals for some of the claims that they've made," he said.
"We make no apology for the way that we've performed, the way that we've acted. We do take on the chin that there are lessons to be learned, and potentially mistakes have been made in our submission, which with the benefit of hindsight and 20-20 vision, everybody can be a specialist. But there was no intent, there was nothing dishonest, and there was certainly no cheating involved, which has been alleged in certain corners. So I don't feel that we need to apologise.
"We've taken our pounding in public, we've taken a very public pounding through the accusations that have been made by other teams. We've had our drivers booed at circuits, and the reputational damage that's been made by allegations has been significant. The time is now for that to stop and move on."
Horner, who said he is confident Red Bull will be under the cost cap for the 2022 season, admitted the team will have to work "incredibly hard" to overcome the sporting penalty over the next two years.
"It's a handicap," he said. "We are going to have to work incredibly hard. It gives an advantage to our competitors, which is why they were pushing so hard for a draconian penalty.
"We've taken our pounding in public, we've taken a very public pounding through the accusations that have been made by other teams. We've had our drivers booed at circuits, and the reputational damage that's been made by allegations has been significant. The time is now for that to stop and move on."
Horner, who said he is confident Red Bull will be under the cost cap for the 2022 season, admitted the team will have to work "incredibly hard" to overcome the sporting penalty over the next two years.
"It's a handicap," he said. "We are going to have to work incredibly hard. It gives an advantage to our competitors, which is why they were pushing so hard for a draconian penalty.