@ Pogue: I think they were just a perfect match, like a man finding his soulmate even if there are more beautiful birds out there
Rooney
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So he's in bad form for us?
If you really need proof he's a complete forward, which is bizarre, watch him for England in the qualifiers. Up there with the most complete forwards around. Goals, dictating play, beating men...had it all.
His performances were excellent at the start of the season. I remember very lively outings against Wigan and Tottenham to name two. Usually, he'd get an injury and we could blame his habitual autumnal slumber on that, but what's the reason for his slump in form this time? I've never had a baby so I wouldn't like to speculate how much/little that takes out of you - but that's the only reason I can see for what's happened to his game.
I keep harping back to that Sunderland draw at OT when he was absolutely hopeless. He's played like he couldn't trap a bag of cement and every time he's attempted a killer ball, it seems as though it's been overhit or intercepted. These are the foundations of the game - he needs to get back to basics.
The most worrying thing is that he never looks like striking up a link with Berbatov. Something has to give there...
I think so anyway....Berbatov is getting alot of grief at the moment which is somewhat unfair. He's one of a few players capable of the sublime at our club right now. Ive always held the belief that if Saha wasnt a sick note i dont think Berba would have been a target for us in the first place.
Paul Merson isn't usually the most insightful pundit, but he was very good in his observation of the Rooney-Berbatov pairing yesterday.
It's all about how close two strikers play with each other. Keane and Berbatov were always close, always available for the one-two. He said that this suited Berbatov's game. He says that Rooney is too pre-occupied with going all over the pitch and thus hasn't struck up the same affinity with Berbatov, who has been left increasingly isolated and frustrated. There is some mileage in that.
I'm obviously not enunciating my point very well. To clarify, never have I said that Rooney is a limited player (in terms of natural ability and potential). What I have constantly complained about is the fact that he is falling way short of the performances that we would expect. And that is what we deal in: form, not potential. Whilst he's producing stinker after stinker, he's no where near being the "complete forward". The only thing that has kept him from a raft of criticism is the fact that he has a healthy goal tally.
On England - I agree, in the last year his form for them has been outstanding. Probably better than anything he's done in a United shirt. Problem is, I'm not an England fan.
It's one of those mysteries that I've went over in my head time and time again. I thought Rooney'd become a more creative version of Robbie Keane. Neither were great finishers or particularly pacey but made up for it with excellent movement. Keane's adept at dropping deep and helping the play flow, but he was never as creative a passer as Rooney. They're both hardworkers.
The surrounding players weren't even that different - a pacey, direct winger on one side(Valencia, Ronaldo, Lennon) and a quietly creative winger on the other side(Giggs, Malbranque).
Better manager. Better midfielders providing for them.
Haven't a clue why but it is a shame. I was so sure that Rooney of 07/08 was Robbie Keane an excellent creative pass. His movement that season was the best in our team and better than ever before or since.
But you would often talk up Berbatov's achievements for Bulgaria as if it was some standing point for United?
And I'm not sure if Rooney has been kept from a raft of criticism either. Certainly from this thread alone he's been denigrated to someone who is just a headless chicken who scores the odd goal this season.
It's pointless and stupid to judge a player on poor form.
Rooney's inconsistent, he's taken longer to get rid of that aspect of his game than many of us expected but then a lot of attacking players don't get rid of that aspect of their game until their late twenties.
Take away that and you've got a player who has every chance of being called world class, and deserving to.
Keane has more positional discipline than Rooney?
Again, it's back to the notion that Rooney can effect a game in the left back position. He can't link with Berbatov from the half way line. Rooney needs to get closer to Berbatov, who cuts an increasingly isolated figure and you can see from his body language that he's getting frustrated by the whole thing.
Berbatov isn't the sort of player who can pick a ball up and make slaloming runs past a host of players. He's not going to pick the ball up 30 yards out and have a pop at goal. For him to thrive, he needs the support players to get close to him and make runs beyond him. If you play to his strengths, then he can be the pivot of the team. At the moment, it's incidental that he's on the pitch. It's not all his fault.
same here
I've quoted Berbatov's scoring exploits for Bulgaria as an example of the fact that he is capable of making a very strong impression on the scoresheet. But whether he does well for Bulgaria is as much of an irrelevance to me as Rooney for England.
He has scored goals more prolifically this season (though the pens have undeniably helped). But his general form has been very patchy indeed. We expect more than goals from Rooney and in the absence of any other talismanic figure, we expect a greater all round contribution.
Poor form that in fairness has lasted for months now.
I'm not denying that he's got masses of potential. But at the end of the day, he's our best player - he, more than anyone, needs to do more.
It should probably be noted that Spurs as a whole play differently from us and teams approach them differently. They tended to play a lot more on the counter attack and therefore Berbatov and Keane would get more space.
That's not always going to happen at United when teams decide to pack 11 men behind the ball.
I could be wrong in this but I've never been a big fan of the Rooney-Berbatov partnership before it happened because I've always felt it lacked pace. And pace is often the deciding factor in the big matches. Rooney has lost the blistering pace he had a few years ago and Berbatov isn't superfast either. It was evident when Berbatov wasn't being used for the big matches last season how important Ronaldo was up front.
Exactly what I thought.
I saw Rooney developing into a massive upgrade on Robbie Keane. There's not a massive difference in the way they play the game. Either I was under-estimating Keane or over-estimating Rooney. Probably a bit of both.
Mind you, having said all that. Keane did his best work with Berbatov when he was in his prime as a footballer. Rooney is still yong and lernin'.
Course we expect more from Rooney. He's our best player! The only one capable in the team of turning up against the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal. I thought he started the season brilliantly, picked up a calf injury and for some reason has been horrible since he was out for those couple of weeks. In fairness it would be a good time to drop him right now for about 2 matches but the problem is we rely on him for goals. Even if the ratio is 8 in 17 minus penalties. It's still better than anyone else at the club.
Or perhaps you were over-estimating Berbatov and the influence he would have here when he was no longer top dog.
Not sure about that. Berbatov and Keane were quite capable of pinning back PL minnows and putting them to the sword. Spurs were usually around about the UEFA slots. They weren't a relegation candidate being battered by every side they faced.
I would also wonder how they exploited these wide open spaces bearing in mind that Keane, the quicker of the two, is still a lot slower than Rooney.
What do you mean by that?
What's that got to do with his partnership with Rooney?
Indeed. He's our best and most capable player (when on form). So when he's woefully short of his best, it's natural that he'll be the one that is questioned.
I wouldn't drop him, purely because he is capable of pulling something out of the bag. I do think we need to help him by playing him in a consistent combination - that means picking one out of Berbatov and Owen and giving them a sustained run in the side. Injuries to the backline or not, disruption in the midfield or not, we're not giving ourselves a chance to build up a striking link.
Suppose the major difference between his partnership with Keane than with Rooney is that at Spurs he was clearly the better player. He wouldn't have been dropped after a bad run of form either and if he were to have a bad game he wouldn't be lambasted at all corners.
At United it's a lot different, a bad game followed by another bad game, he finds himself on the bench. Doesn't help him when he isn't considered the best striker at the club and therefore not the top dog. He's under a lot more pressure at United and it's different to when he was at Spurs.
Gotcha. Yeah, that's almost certainly a factor.
It's not the only reason. There's got to be more to it than that.
You see a completely different Rooney to me. I see a Rooney stuck up the pitch, disciplined, leading that line and nothing like the one that was chasing left backs regularly. He's constantly the furthest player forward, and it's not his fault Berbatov's not close enough to him. He should be.
Think you're being overly critical of Rooney and not critical enough of Berbatov, almost purely because you believe that Berbatov's previously been criticised too much and Rooney's not criticised enough - something you've mentioned over and over again.
In fairness, virtually every player that comes to United finds themselves in that position. I.e. a former big fish all of a sudden entering a massive pond with even bigger fishes! That's not the problem here.
There is a fundamental lack of link-up between Rooney and Berbatov when they play? Why? I don't think the constant rotation helps matters personally.
No no no. Earlier in the thread, I have alluded to the fact that I'm happy that SAF has stuck him as centre forward because as you say, it will make him constantly occupy more dangerous positions. I totally agree with you that he has shown more discipline. My gripe is that I don't think that it's his natural position. The problem is, if we play him in the hole, he lacks the discipline to actually be a truly effective no 10 because he roams too much. So in effect, playing him as the line leader is the lesser of two ills so to speak.
As for Berbatov, my views on him are clear. We're not using him well. He's not on everybody else's wavelength. For me, Berbatov should be the fixed point in attack and it's up to everyone to work off him. That's his strength and that's how we'll get the best out of him.
I'd like to see Berbatov and Rooney swap positions with each other. Problem is that I don't think Rooney has the discipline to play the no 10 role. As a result, we've got two strikers who are playing in sub-optimal positions.
It really is.
It was a problem for Veron, Tevez, Nani, and many at this club, of course it's not the only factor that makes those players no real successes that this club but it's certainly one of them.
He's had no problem showing it for England. No. 10's aren't ever particularly disciplined. The idea of the role is to give them freedom to express themselves in any attacking position. Rooney's thrived off of that for England and there's been none of this chasing back the left back like his earlier days.
In which case, I don't see why we don't swap the two of the around and give them a run together. Berbatov should be the point of the attack.
Rooney is quite capable of playing at number 10, goes without saying.
Worth noting that he played no better for England than he did for United in the last few internationals. His form for England this season has been as over-rated by the English media as his form for United. It's a gross over-simplification to imply he's ben consistently great for England and his only problem has been finding the right partner at United.
He was awful in the last few England games I watched, summed up by his diving and kicking out at the defender when he won England the penalty that never was. He does the same shit for United when he's playing badly.
He just happened to be playing his best football for club and country at the same time, at the beginning of this season. It's been downhill since then, on both fronts.
Let's just say he didn't turn out to be the player I'd thought he'd be... not even close... some say this version means he's a better 'alround player', to me he seems like a castrated Superman, who sometimes, just SOMETIMES, returns to his former glory by getting Spiderman to stick that thing on him again...
... I feel the same way about him 
you know when you compare what he was to what he isBut tbh Rooney could just be one of those players who gets better with age (or there is the other side that hes burnt out but i doubt it), right now his biggest problem is consistancy he has all the talent in the world but its a bit hit and miss right now - similar to Nani but on a smaller scale
I reckon he needs to be benched for a few games to give him a kick up the arse. Having said that, it's not like berbatov or owen are doing any better. Rooney has been so inconsistant these few seasons, it can't be overlooked anymore.
Nah, over the course of the qualifiers Rooney was consistently England's best player, wouldn't say it was just at the start of this season.
There were only two games out of 10 that he didn't get a goal or assist, both against Ukraine oddly. And even then he was England's best player away against Ukraine and he won MOTM in the home game.
2 goals and 1 assist against Belarus. 1 assist against Andorra. 2 goals against Kazahkstan. 1 goal and 2 assists against Croatia. 1 goal against Kazahkstan. 2 goals against Andorra(yet taken off at half time). 1 goal and 1 assist against Croatia.
That's consistent brilliance and up there as one of the top three performers in International football.
We need a donkey up front, someone give Heskey a ring.
We need a donkey that'll score the odd goal!
John Carew then.
We need a donkey upfront who can score goals and is not Carew... Basically im getting to 'we need Villa/Fabiano'
It's the first time I've ever heard David Villa be called a "donkey"
31 in 84 for Villa btw.
Well he and Fabiano are people that lead the line and im guessing thats what we need - someone to do the donkeys work while Rooney sits behind
David Villa, at this moment in time, is far superior to Rooney. If we had Villa in our side, it'd be Rooney that would be doing the donkey work.