[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Apparently tracking back is a cardinal sin and attacking players should never do it. Virtually every manager (including our lord and saviour Guardiola) tells the wide players to track back.

In the 2nd half vs City at OT, City sat back and tried to counter attack. One of Sterling and Sane were always covering their fullback in the defensive phase, while the other was up the pitch. In a turnover the ball was given to KdB ASAP and he would find the player that was up the pitch.

In order to counter attack players must track back to pressure the opponent into mistakes by restricting the space.

Next thing you'll see in this thread is that midfielders shouldnt track runners into the box or else you're a negative manager.

The "he's being asked to do much defensively" narrative is one of the most ridiculous arguments ever used and this doesn't apply only to Martial. When Barcelona reached absolute greatness under Guardiola, Messi was one of the most important players in their high pressing tactics. Even now, he literally works his socks off in order to help such tactics work to perfection. Guardiola himself has described Messi as "the best defensive player in the world". As for wasting energy by going up and down the pitch, what can i say? Apparently, asking a professional athlete to perform like one for 90 minutes seems simply too much these days.

You can argue that there are players who are being relieved of their defensive duties or to put it better, they are treated as the weakest links in the defensive plan by their managers who instruct others to do all the dirty work for them. But these are players like Ronaldo and Hazard who are proven world beaters and have already shown that they can be the spearheads of title-winning squads. In that way, the freedom afforded to them doesn't hinder the overall balance in the dressing room.

The only thing i don't agree with is the comparisons with Nani. The latter had bags of talent and his inconsistency was his problem, this much is true. The difference is that we were a settled side back then with clear-cut roles on the pitch. We knew what was expected of each player and it was easier to criticize them. Right now, we're at a point where both our primary options for making our plays tick (Mata and Mkhitaryan) are struggling to find any kind of form and, lately, the burden of creativity has fallen on the shoulders of Martial and Rashford. It's a bit unfair to place all the blame on them since they're both attacking players (not so much engines of creativity) who are being asked to create chances for another out and out attacking player. And, statistically, they both are doing a very decent job.

 

[VeevaVee]

Entitled to your opinion of course, but I think it's the exact opposite. He of course has bad games, but he gets microanalysed to shit when he does. His stats and contribution from the wing are only behind Salah and Sterling this season. And that's for a Mourinho team that sadly does not play the fluid attacking football that Liverpool and City play.

I just think there is no balance in the comments' section. People go overboard with criticism, or praise sometimes to be fair. He's been having a very good season, but couple of bad games and apparently he's shit now.

His return is good, for sure. What he offers to our play is occasionally great, but a lot of the time ineffective to invisible. Stats aren't the be all and end all.

I know he's young too, and that's fair enough, but he's a first choice United player and if our attack isn't performing well he'll be judged as one like the others in it, for me.

 

[Dobbs]

Problem with him is that he mostly wants the ball at his feet instead of running behind defences more and giving more options for a passing to him.

I don't think this points been made enough.

 

[Ban]

I don't think this points been made enough.

And I don't know why doesn't he change it. I don't think it's the instructions, like stay at your position and don't run. That has been happening under LVG too. Sure, he's really talented and when he has a ball he can do wonders with it sometimes, but often he loses the ball too cause he wants to do everything by himself.

 

[Dobbs]

And I don't know why doesn't he change it. I don't think it's the instructions, like stay at your position and don't run. That has been happening under LVG too. Sure, he's really talented and when he has a ball he can do wonders with it sometimes, but often he loses the ball too cause he wants to do everything by himself.

Check the other thread regarding his stamina. Could be that.

In anycase there's seriously no need to point this out anymore as if nobody has spotted it or remarked on it. It's an observation that's been laboured over and over again. To the point it's now massively exaggerated.

 

[MadMike]

His return is good, for sure. What he offers to our play is occasionally great, but a lot of the time ineffective to invisible. Stats aren't the be all and end all.

I know he's young too, and that's fair enough, but he's a first choice United player and if our attack isn't performing well he'll be judged as one like the others in it, for me.

Did anyone say stats are the be all and all? Why is it the standard response when being confronted with an argument that is also backed up by stats? It irks me to no end.

I've seen Martial be ineffective at games but I've hardly ever see him be invisible. And in my opinion the number of times where he's effective or influential on the pitch far outweighs the times he isn't. But it's ok to disagree of course.

 

[VeevaVee]

Did anyone say stats are the be all and all? Why is it the standard response when being confronted with an argument that is also backed up by stats? It irks me to no end.

I've seen Martial be ineffective at games but I've hardly ever see him be invisible. And in my opinion the number of times where he's effective or influential on the pitch far outweighs the times he isn't. But it's ok to disagree of course.

It irks me that stats are presented that don't prove much too though. Like LVG having a great defence while we actually just kicked it around the halfway line all game so no one could do anything. We know Martial can deliver and sometimes does, sometimes very well, hence some of his stats being good. It doesn't explain what happens game in game out though, and that's a much less impressive Martial imo.

 

[TRA007]

Some people praise him too much, others criticise him too much. Moderation in opinions must be excercised, before this thread becomes unreadable.

 

[Ban]

Check the other thread regarding his stamina. Could be that.

In anycase there's seriously no need to point this out anymore as if nobody has spotted it or remarked on it. It's an observation that's been laboured over and over again. To the point it's now massively exaggerated.

Sorry, havent been in this thread so often to notice that. If anything his talent has been exaggerated too to the point of mass hysteria every time he doesn't start.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

But 14 years ago deco was brilliant under Mourinho! He's a attacking genius of a coach.

I agree. Martial and Rashford just aren't suited to Mourinho's football. Heck the best player in the PL for the last few years was made to constantly track back.

Who's that, mate? And what season?

 

[redIndianDevil]

The "he's being asked to do much defensively" narrative is one of the most ridiculous arguments ever used and this doesn't apply only to Martial. When Barcelona reached absolute greatness under Guardiola, Messi was one of the most important players in their high pressing tactics. Even now, he literally works his socks off in order to help such tactics work to perfection. Guardiola himself has described Messi as "the best defensive player in the world". As for wasting energy by going up and down the pitch, what can i say? Apparently, asking a professional athlete to perform like one for 90 minutes seems simply too much these days.

You can argue that there are players who are being relieved of their defensive duties or to put it better, they are treated as the weakest links in the defensive plan by their managers who instruct others to do all the dirty work for them. But these are players like Ronaldo and Hazard who are proven world beaters and have already shown that they can be the spearheads of title-winning squads. In that way, the freedom afforded to them doesn't hinder the overall balance in the dressing room.

The only thing i don't agree with is the comparisons with Nani. The latter had bags of talent and his inconsistency was his problem, this much is true. The difference is that we were a settled side back then with clear-cut roles on the pitch. We knew what was expected of each player and it was easier to criticize them. Right now, we're at a point where both our primary options for making our plays tick (Mata and Mkhitaryan) are struggling to find any kind of form and, lately, the burden of creativity has fallen on the shoulders of Martial and Rashford. It's a bit unfair to place all the blame on them since they're both attacking players (not so much engines of creativity) who are being asked to create chances for another out and out attacking player. And, statistically, they both are doing a very decent job.

I think you are confusing closing down spaces when the possession is lost with that of tracking back, the former is called pressing, the latter is just tracking back into a position near the fullback and maintaining defensive shape. Like you said Messi is the best player in the world, he doesn't drop deep all the way down to contribute to defence, he presses the opposition midfielder and his entire team close up the passing avenues to win the ball back higher up the pitch. This is what Liverpool call counter-pressing, City have also incorporated this system, hell every possession based attacking team press collectively. Mourinho's team don't press effectively, his system requires players to drop back into position and defend as a unit. The latter will obviously tire out wide players because they have to run up and down the pitch every time possession is turned over, this will obviously tire out guys like Martial, Mata etc whereas workhorses like Valencia, Young look good.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Who's that, mate? And what season?

He means Hazard I think.

 

[Ban]

Apparently tracking back is a cardinal sin and attacking players should never do it. Virtually every manager (including our lord and saviour Guardiola) tells the wide players to track back.

In the 2nd half vs City at OT, City sat back and tried to counter attack. One of Sterling and Sane were always covering their fullback in the defensive phase, while the other was up the pitch. In a turnover the ball was given to KdB ASAP and he would find the player that was up the pitch.

In order to counter attack players must track back to pressure the opponent into mistakes by restricting the space.

Next thing you'll see in this thread is that midfielders shouldnt track runners into the box or else you're a negative manager.

This 1000 times. It's like only Jose wants his forwards to track back and when they do it it takes away a lot from their game supposedly.

They would shine under any manager bar him..

 

[Blind17]

Ok lets just say Martial is as bad as most people are claiming and he doesn't do anything without the ball at his feet, tell me one forward whose been consistently good under Mourinho?

 

[Ban]

Ok lets just say Martial is as bad as most people are claiming and he doesn't do anything without the ball at his feet, tell me one forward whose been consistently good under Mourinho?

You're seriously asking this?

 

[breakout67]

Ok lets just say Martial is as bad as most people are claiming and he doesn't do anything without the ball at his feet, tell me one forward whose been consistently good under Mourinho?

Every single striker that has spearheaded the attack, almost every no.10 that has supported the striker, several wide players that would run up and down the pitch. Every single title winning team he has produced had lethal attacking players in it; many of which had their best form under him.

This man created teams that hold the points record in the two best leagues in the world (La Liga and PL). He knows how to get attackers to shine.

Also, Martial isn't bad, he's just not good enough to be completely alleviated of all responsibilities and be allowed to do whatever he wants.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

I think you are confusing closing down spaces when the possession is lost with that of tracking back, the former is called pressing, the latter is just tracking back into a position near the fullback and maintaining defensive shape. Like you said Messi is the best player in the world, he doesn't drop deep all the way down to contribute to defence, he presses the opposition midfielder and his entire team close up the passing avenues to win the ball back higher up the pitch. This is what Liverpool call counter-pressing, City have also incorporated this system, hell every possession based attacking team press collectively. Mourinho's team don't press effectively, his system requires players to drop back into position and defend as a unit. The latter will obviously tire out wide players because they have to run up and down the pitch every time possession is turned over, this will obviously tire out guys like Martial, Mata etc whereas workhorses like Valencia, Young look good.

I don't think i'm confusing anything. Different styles demand different defensive setups, it just happens that ours asks of the players to drop deep in order to, firstly, increase the chances of collecting the second balls after a clearance and then to create more options for a vertical pass through the lines with the intention of beating the opposition's defensive transition and exploiting the spaces in behind. Do i think that this particular tactic is the best thing to do nowadays in football? No, i don't but that's a discussion for another thread since it has nothing to do with Martial (or Rashford, or Mata, or whoever for that matter).

I grew up as a United fan watching some great players do it all the time: Giggs, Kanchelskis, Beckham are some of them. I loved watching Giggsy coming all the way down to our third of the pitch and then run like a freaking gazelle with or without the ball, all the way up to the attacking third. It was a sight to behold. I remember Beckham doing the same thing on the other side of the pitch. I also remember our beloved club's top goalscorer of all time tracking back Cole right to the corner flag for about 100 minutes in a CL final. If they can do it and also be potent in their attacking duties, so can Martial. During Ferguson's glorious career only two players were given a "free pass" in their defensive duties, Cantona and Ronaldo. And these two possessed both the talent and the personality to be given this freedom on the pitch. No one in this squad deserves such privileges. (And no, i'm not comparing SAF's brand of football with Mourinho's, i'm just saying that for a quarter of a century our primary defensive plan was to defend deep).

And high pressing is very tiring, what makes you think otherwise? Why do you think Klopp's sides usually implode during the second half of their seasons? It's also quite evident that he's toned it down a bit this season. Short but more frequent sprints can be as tiring as long but less frequent ones. Tactically, i'm all in for some pressing tactics but to say that their absence hinders Martial's attacking abilities is strange IMO. And from what i witness on the pitch Martial (and Rash) don't look tired at all to me. They always want the ball and they always look ready and willing to go 1v1 and make something happen.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

He means Hazard I think.

If @PepsiCola was indeed talking about Hazard I find that really odd because Eden had his two best consecutive seasons under José...

In José's first season, Hazard got 17 in all comps, and in José's 2nd, Hazard got 19 in all comps.

In their PL winning season under Conté, Hazard got 17 again - less than under his last full season spent under José.

So really weird to suggest that Mourinho somehow hampered Hazard's output, or restricted his game.

 

[breakout67]

...

Spot on mate. Rooney, Giggs, Beckham all did the hard yards in defense and were lethal in attack. That is the standard we have set as a club. If Martial can't work for the team and still shine as a player then he isnt good enough for the club.

Martial has the potential to do it (he did it in his first season). He has shown glimpses this season, so I hope he can do it.

 

[redIndianDevil]

If @PepsiCola was indeed talking about Hazard I find that really odd because Eden had his two best consecutive seasons under José...

In José's first season, Hazard got 17 in all comps, and in José's 2nd, Hazard got 19 in all comps.

In their PL winning season under Conté, Hazard got 17 again - less than under his last full season spent under José.

So really weird to suggest that Mourinho somehow hampered Hazard's output, or restricted his game.

Stats apart it was quite clear that they both had a public falling apart and it started once Mourinho criticized Hazard for not tracking back. Plus you have forgotten that Hazard also had his worst year under Mourinho.

 

[redIndianDevil]

I don't think i'm confusing anything. Different styles demand different defensive setups, it just happens that ours asks of the players to drop deep in order to, firstly, increase the chances of collecting the second balls after a clearance and then to create more options for a vertical pass through the lines with the intention of beating the opposition's defensive transition and exploiting the spaces in behind. Do i think that this particular tactic is the best thing to do nowadays in football? No, i don't but that's a discussion for another thread since it has nothing to do with Martial (or Rashford, or Mata, or whoever for that matter).

I grew up as a United fan watching some great players do it all the time: Giggs, Kanchelskis, Beckham are some of them. I loved watching Giggsy coming all the way down to our third of the pitch and then run like a freaking gazelle with or without the ball, all the way up to the attacking third. It was a sight to behold. I remember Beckham doing the same thing on the other side of the pitch. I also remember our beloved club's top goalscorer of all time tracking back Cole right to the corner flag for about 100 minutes in a CL final. If they can do it and also be potent in their attacking duties, so can Martial. During Ferguson's glorious career only two players were given a "free pass" in their defensive duties, Cantona and Ronaldo. And these two possessed both the talent and the personality to be given this freedom on the pitch. No one in this squad deserves such privileges. (And no, i'm not comparing SAF's brand of football with Mourinho's, i'm just saying that for a quarter of a century our primary defensive plan was to defend deep).

And high pressing is very tiring, what makes you think otherwise? Why do you think Klopp's sides usually implode during the second half of their seasons? It's also quite evident that he's toned it down a bit this season. Short but more frequent sprints can be as tiring as long but less frequent ones. Tactically, i'm all in for some pressing tactics but to say that their absence hinders Martial's attacking abilities is strange IMO. And from what i witness on the pitch Martial (and Rash) don't look tired at all to me. They always want the ball and they always look ready and willing to go 1v1 and make something happen.

Right now we basically hoof it up after winning the ball, the vertical passes in behind are rarely made under Mourinho.

I'm not saying pressing consumes less energy it requires much more teamwork and energy but when you press high up and win the ball the distance for the attack is much shorter, we can catch their defence off guard, lot less chances of facing a bus. The moment Martial or Rashford start their run towards attack the opposition have a lot of time to get back and reorganize, this makes it difficult for our players because now they have to take in 2 or three players.

Cole tracking back one match is different to playing every match of the season the same way.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Right now we basically hoof it up after winning the ball, the vertical passes in behind are rarely made under Mourinho.

I'm not saying pressing consumes less energy it requires much more teamwork and energy but when you press high up and win the ball the distance for the attack is much shorter, we can catch their defence off guard, lot less chances of facing a bus. The moment Martial or Rashford start their run towards attack the opposition have a lot of time to get back and reorganize, this makes it difficult for our players because now they have to take in 2 or three players.

Cole tracking back one match is different to playing every match of the season the same way.

With the bold part, i can somewhat agree. I still don't believe it's an inherent vice of the counter-attacking tactics in general because when you get them right, you will find the spaces to exploit most times. But in our games, as you mention in your first sentence, we can see that our passing game is often problematic and this hampers the offensive transition plays a lot. Hence my mention that i would like to see some press traps in the middle of the pitch.

Besides that, i think both Martial and Rashford have good numbers to show for their efforts on the pitch. If there's something that makes them look (really) bad in the eyes of some is that lately they're forced to take on more creative responsibilities because Miki and Mata are playing poorly. They're not ready yet for that burden.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Stats apart it was quite clear that they both had a public falling apart and it started once Mourinho criticized Hazard for not tracking back. Plus you have forgotten that Hazard also had his worst year under Mourinho.

That wasn't a whole season and was an anomaly for them both.

And saying 'stats apart' doesn't suddenly disprove those stats, or make them any less relevant.

The fact is that Hazard's best 2 consecutive PL seasons have occurred under José Mourinho - if you're gonna suggest that José had something to do Hazard's shit 3rd season, then you have to say that he had something to do with Hazard's 2 great seasons.

To do anything other than that would make it clear you (or whoever was saying such nonsense) was biased against Mourinho.

And the fact that Hazard's best 2 PL seasons occurred under José, added to the fact that Ronaldo's highest ever scoring season occurred under José obviously puts into serious doubt the claims that José doesn't get the best out of attacking players!

 

[Hed Zitin]

Not like you all haven't seen that type of performance before from him.

He hasn't developed one bit since he's been here. He hasn't improved his game much, if any.

Talented player that his stuck in the same gear.

 

[Blind17]

You're seriously asking this?

I meant for us.

 

[Blind17]

Every single striker that has spearheaded the attack, almost every no.10 that has supported the striker, several wide players that would run up and down the pitch. Every single title winning team he has produced had lethal attacking players in it; many of which had their best form under him.

This man created teams that hold the points record in the two best leagues in the world (La Liga and PL). He knows how to get attackers to shine.

Also, Martial isn't bad, he's just not good enough to be completely alleviated of all responsibilities and be allowed to do whatever he wants.

I didn't say he shouldn't be given any responsibilities, he's a young kid who needs guidance and proper coaching at this stage of his career.
Also Lvg won league at every club he's been, but it didn't help us one bit, did it?

 

[Ephrem]

I think i have said this many times..Martial is not a winger ( same as Rashford ). If Jose play him as a winger he will be always like this. To me he is the best as a wide forward. I think even Jose understand this and that's why he labelled martial as a good attacker and not a winger.

We just can't mess up with this kid. If that some team will buy him and play to his strengths and we will be wondering WTF happened !! His talent as a wide forward or as a striker is just damn good to miss out

 

[Water Melon]

I think you are confusing closing down spaces when the possession is lost with that of tracking back, the former is called pressing, the latter is just tracking back into a position near the fullback and maintaining defensive shape. Like you said Messi is the best player in the world, he doesn't drop deep all the way down to contribute to defence, he presses the opposition midfielder and his entire team close up the passing avenues to win the ball back higher up the pitch. This is what Liverpool call counter-pressing, City have also incorporated this system, hell every possession based attacking team press collectively. Mourinho's team don't press effectively, his system requires players to drop back into position and defend as a unit. The latter will obviously tire out wide players because they have to run up and down the pitch every time possession is turned over, this will obviously tire out guys like Martial, Mata etc whereas workhorses like Valencia, Young look good.

Spot fecking on.

 

[Dobbs]

That wasn't a whole season and was an anomaly for them both.

And saying 'stats apart' doesn't suddenly disprove those stats, or make them any less relevant.

The fact is that Hazard's best 2 consecutive PL seasons have occurred under José Mourinho - if you're gonna suggest that José had something to do Hazard's shit 3rd season, then you have to say that he had something to do with Hazard's 2 great seasons.

To do anything other than that would make it clear you (or whoever was saying such nonsense) was biased against Mourinho.

And the fact that Hazard's best 2 PL seasons occurred under José, added to the fact that Ronaldo's highest ever scoring season occurred under José obviously puts into serious doubt the claims that José doesn't get the best out of attacking players!

Isn't that what you're doing though? Praising Mourinho for Hazards two best season's. But when it's pointed out he also had his worst season under Mourinho you dismiss that as an anomaly. Can't have it both ways.

Agree you can't say Mourinho is incapable of getting the best out of an attacking player. Purely because we've seen he can. I wouldn't involve Ronaldo because he'd be great whoever was in charge but with Lampard, Drogba etc there's evidence.

However as time passes the attacking struggles are starting to outnumber the success. He's got to start showing us he can get the best out of young, attacking talent today. Harking back to years gone by is irrelevant.

 

[Dan_F]

Opposition teams know if you can stop Martial/Rashford from running one on one, it goes a long way to stopping us scoring. Hopefully having Pogba back will help to draw some defenders away from double/triple teaming.

 

[TMDaines]

The tempo of Martial’s game is a bit too slow. Had four or five opportunities in first half to attack the inside left channel with a quick incisive cut inside for the run and shot, but he always wants to get the ball right under his control with a couple of touches for a more controlled dribble. By the time he’s done this, the gap between the full back and centre back has closed and even the midfielder is back on him.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Seems on it today. Reckon he'll score.

 

[kouroux]

He takes too long sometimes to decide what to do.

 

[Footyislife]

I'm one of his biggest fans, but he's been atrocious so far. Positioning and aggressiveness is just so lacking for a winger. He wants to play as a playmaker but with Lingard, Pogba, Matic, and Mata on the field he has to adapt to make runs & cuts of the ball and take players on.

 

[ivaldo]

Hes been decent so far. I'd just like to see him release the ball a bit quicker. There was a few times an early cross was needed but instead he's held onto the ball. So frustrating for the players attacking the box because they can't predict when the cross is actually coming in. A couple of times he could have put Young in on the overlap and dallied too long.

 

[SkeppyRed]

For the talent he’s got, and the amount of the ball he sees, he should be more productive.

 

[Number1]

Not even beat 1 Leicester first half. He's tried but looked to be trying to jog past them.

Where's his pace gone?

Also seems very weak, when he goes shoulder to shoulder with a defender he always falls on his arse.

As SkeppyRed said, for a winger playing for Manchester United he needs to be more productive, apparently he had the same amount of touches first half as Pogba/Matic (unusual for a winger) but never did anything, just played the simple pass and as said, always got dispossessed or fell on his arse when he attempted a run (jog).

 

[diplomat]

Great dribbling and vision so far in the game, but Martial needs to pull the trigger much quicker. His often hesitation leads to losing the ball in a clumsy fall or collision a lot of the times and each time I fear it could actually cause him a serious injury.

 

[Irish Jet]

He's not been atrocious by any stretch. Jesus.

Bit wasteful yes but he's causing them lots of problems.

 

[Yagami]

Bloody hell, should be burying that