[yfoFC]

@Ranchero

I thought I would post here since it's more relevant. I agree with you that Rashford has seemingly gotten back in to some vital form - arguably exploding to the next level up in his career.

You also said that you worried about Martial being a bit like Nani & I couldn't agree more. However - I don't necessarily think it's his fault.

Was Rashford any better than Nani at LW or RW? I don't think so - we could be calling Rashford the next Nani here if he continued his 1 in 3 good games on the wing for us.

In my opinion - Martial outdone Rashford on the wing & is arguably our LW because he is the best player we have to play in that position.

However, I don't think that LW gets the best out of him - especially to the point where he is closer to the touchline (most of the last games he played) in comparison to games where he plays as a player who plays as an inverted forward that is closer to the box than the touchline (the game against Cardiff we saw martial play as an inverted forward - allowing him to come centrally more often, initiating & scoring the wonderful team goal against them).
Look at his position


In my opinion - we need to stop playing with wingers. Wingers do absolutely nothing for Rashford apart from widening the defensive line & only gets players like Martial & Lingard out wider than they need to be.

Consider Greenwood - who is a left footed forward - supposedly resembling RVP in the way he plays. We could just slot him at RW & call it a day - however would that get the best out of him being so wide & closer to the touchline in comparison to the goal? Is he going to be a creator for us or a finisher for us?

Martial's finishing & short pass abilities are underrated - whilst his dribbling capabilities are overrated in my opinion. We put him out on the left wing asking him to beat the RB he faces with every run. After he does that then we want him to keep going & take on the next CB that lies behind the their RB. Martial doesn't do this well in my opinion - ends up losing the ball more often than not. Even if he doesn't he isn't a good crosser - so ends up making a short pass or taking a shot.

Mane at Liverpool is a great example. The lad would struggle here playing as a LW on the touchline trying to beat his man before trying to become some creator for the CF. Instead - him & Salah are the forwards at Liverpool with Firminh0 being the creator - which allows them to drift as wide as they need to on the counter yet have the ability to be central as possible when a chance is created.

We need to play with 2 inverted forwards who play just wide off the centre.

Either

Martial - Rashford
Lingard

Or,
my fave & hope for the future -

Rashford - Greenwood
Martial


In my opinion - Rashford is a great striker - but can bring a level of clinical efficiency to his game if he plays just left off the centre (not a winger but as a forward) - like the goal he just scored against Brighton.



Again his position is in the box but just to the left allowing him to use his right foot in a deadly way - similar to what mane does at Liverpool. We should let him rinse & repeat that move & then have Greenwood one day emulate exactly that but with his left foot playing just right off centre.

Whilst the centre of defence has to deal with those 2 coming in from angles - let Martial drop deep centrally to receive the ball ( he tends to do this even when he plays as a winger) - this allows him to directly take on an overworked centre of defence or if blocked - can make a short pass in to our forwards who can take shots from angles.

That's in my opinion - how we get Martial from Nani to Henry, how we get Greenwood to RVP & Rashford to a more strikers version of C. Ronaldo at LF.

The width needs to be a fullbacks job in the modern game & we need to adapt to this quickly to get the best out of our players.

Great analysis.

Though it hits all the right notes, I feel it is too radical a change for our team in its present moment and pin it as a great change for the future like you noted.

For now, I'd love to see the team continue to thrive as we are doing currently with Martial and Rashford upping their stats even more. During pre-season, this new play can then be introduced.

 

[staniswin]

He hasn't put in a good performance since Bournemouth if we want to be fair. I think it's time to start Sanchez over him this weekend.

 

[royboy16]

I always thought when he is being subbed under Ole that Lukakus number is held up as his replacement and not Sanchez?

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

Anyone that thinks he's been crap is looking for the wrong things.

We tell this yoot we believe in him, he'll smash it.

Marti is absolute class. We tend to replace him at the final segment of games because the team is knackered and we need defensive stability while forcing the opponent to think of our attacks. Hence Rashford moves to the wing cos of his tireless running.

 

[Cassidy]

Actually think he has been playing well...

 

[Luminous Lizard]

He’s been in good form, just missing that little bit of luck at the minute.

Could easily have come away from some of the games with the odd goal or assist to his name. If he keeps it up the luck will turn.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

Great analysis.

Though it hits all the right notes, I feel it is too radical a change for our team in its present moment and pin it as a great change for the future like you noted.

For now, I'd love to see the team continue to thrive as we are doing currently with Martial and Rashford upping their stats even more. During pre-season, this new play can then be introduced.

I agree - it's way too much of a change to suddenly restart our whole attack midway through the season. Will need a pre-season at the very least.

However - I wouldn't put it far from happening under ole next year. The game against Spurs he played Lingard as a false nine with Martial & Rashford playing on either side. If he is open to that idea - I don't see why he couldn't test out martial as a false nine with Rashford on the left of him at LF & Greenwood potentially on the RF.

Our attack can't be fixed until we get our RF or RW sorted. Considering we have Greenwood & Chong already - I don't necessarily see a reason to splash the cash - just a way of fitting everyone useful together.

 

[Baxter]

He hasn't put in a good performance since Bournemouth if we want to be fair. I think it's time to start Sanchez over him this weekend.

He’s been fine, just hasn’t scored. This is opposed to Sanchez who has put in so many good performances you could count them on one hand, at best. That with the fact he’s just back from injury, again, means I’d hope he’s on the bench at most.

 

[Majima]

He hasn't put in a good performance since Bournemouth if we want to be fair. I think it's time to start Sanchez over him this weekend.

This post is sooo

Martial is playing perfectly fine, just a bit unlucky that things haven't come off for him recently. He's still creating chances for others and posing a big threat, freeing up lots of space for our other attackers to thrive in. (Like Rashford has recently)

Martial & Rashford are our key young attackers. They are our future. Mourinho is gone. It's time to get behind both.

Besides, i would argue that Sanchez and Martial aren't even competing for the same position any more.

Sanchez' legs have gone a bit. He's wasted wide on the wing. He needs to be playing closer to goal where his pace does not matter as much and he can use his creative brain. He's always been more effective closer to goal anyway.

So he should be playing either Matas spot or Lingards spot for me.

An underperforming mercenary shouldn't be allowed to interfere with the development of our young talent.

 

[Frank Grimes]

This post is sooo

Martial is playing perfectly fine, just a bit unlucky that things haven't come off for him recently. He's still creating chances for others and posing a big threat, freeing up lots of space for our other attackers to thrive in. (Like Rashford has recently)

Martial & Rashford are our key young attackers. They are our future. Mourinho is gone. It's time to get behind both.

Besides, i would argue that Sanchez and Martial aren't even competing for the same position any more.

Sanchez' legs have gone a bit. He's wasted wide on the wing. He needs to be playing closer to goal where his pace does not matter as much and he can use his creative brain. He's always been more effective closer to goal anyway.

So he should be playing either Matas spot or Lingards spot for me.

An underperforming mercenary shouldn't be allowed to interfere with the development of our young talent.

This post got worse the longer it went on.

 

[meamth]

This post got worse the longer it went on.

What? He made a lot of sense, please elaborate.

That's why its a discussion, not just leaving your opinion and fly off somewhere.

 

[Rafeeq RSA]

Martial needs to start , he was very unlucky not score the weekend, give him chance. Sanchez needs to earn his place and doubt he is fit to start games

 

[Frank Grimes]

What? He made a lot of sense, please elaborate.

That's why its a discussion, not just leaving your opinion and fly off somewhere.

Ok if you must have it broken down for you.

He starts off ok.

Then he goes on to say that Sanchez legs have gone and he needs to be playing closer to the goal. One wold assume he meant striker by this but no he says Mata and Lingard's positions are his competition. Lingard drops deep and moves all over (hardly a role for a player who's legs have gone) and Mata plays on the opposite flank to Martial, hardly closer to the goal.

Finally he goes on to call Sanchez a mercenary, a completely unneccessary dig at a player who has admittedly struggled but no more than most under Mourinho's tenure(Martial included). Basically everything he said painted Martial in the best light possible whilst being completely disrespectful to Sanchez.

Personally I don't care who plays as long as United keep improving and I'd be delighted to see both do better in the coming months.

 

[Raven]

Ok if you must have it broken down for you.

He starts off ok.

Then he goes on to say that Sanchez legs have gone and he needs to be playing closer to the goal. One wold assume he meant striker by this but no he says Mata and Lingard's positions are his competition. Lingard drops deep and moves all over (hardly a role for a player who's legs have gone) and Mata plays on the opposite flank to Martial, hardly closer to the goal.

Finally he goes on to call Sanchez a mercenary, a completely unneccessary dig at a player who has admittedly struggled but no more than most under Mourinho's tenure(Martial included). Basically everything he said painted Martial in the best light possible whilst being completely disrespectful to Sanchez.

Personally I don't care who plays as long as United keep improving and I'd be delighted to see both do better in the coming months.

For me, it's pretty simple, Martial is a better player than Sanchez, so he should play.

 

[Frank Grimes]

For me it's pretty simple, Martial is a better player than Sanchez, so he should play.

He is playing but if he doesn't do the business Sanchez deserves a chance to show his mettle under a new manager too. Also not entirely convinced Martial is better than Sanchez.

 

[Santoryo]

He is playing but if he doesn't do the business Sanchez deserves a chance to show his mettle under a new manager too. Also not entirely convinced Martial is better than Sanchez.

But he is doing the business for us

 

[Frank Grimes]

But he is doing the business for us

Has been ok. Would start him v Burnley for sure.

 

[Canagel]

He is playing but if he doesn't do the business Sanchez deserves a chance to show his mettle under a new manager too. Also not entirely convinced Martial is better than Sanchez.

Why does Sanchez have to play at Martials expense? Theyre not in direct competition. Only in Jose mind since he forced Sanchez to the left but that's in the past. Martial has since proven he's the best we have in the position. Sanchez either in middle or on the right.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

He is playing but if he doesn't do the business Sanchez deserves a chance to show his mettle under a new manager too. Also not entirely convinced Martial is better than Sanchez.

Has been ok. Would start him v Burnley for sure.

He's been playing well. just doesn't have the rub of the green atm.

Opposed to Sanchez, who has done sweet feckal.

 

[Frank Grimes]

You think he he has done better than ok? 1 assist and 0 goals in home games versus Bournemouth and Brighton and away to Newcastle and Spurs fits the description of ok.

 

[Frank Grimes]

It seems impossible to give an objective critique of Martial without getting a lot of peoples backs up. Even saying he is doing ok is taken as criticism, weird.

 

[Rish Sawhney]

You think he he has done better than ok? 1 assist and 0 goals in home games versus Bournemouth and Brighton and away to Newcastle and Spurs fits the description of ok.

Football is about more than goals and assist stats. He doesn't seem to be a Ronaldo/Messi style goal per game or even goal in 2 games player. He's more creative and has created lots of good opportunities that either he's missed or his teammates have missed. Especially in the beginning of the 2nd half in the Spurs and Brighton games.

 

[Frank Grimes]

Football is about more than goals and assist stats. He doesn't seem to be a Ronaldo/Messi style goal per game or even goal in 2 games player. He's more creative and has created lots of good opportunities that either he's missed or his teammates have missed. Especially in the beginning of the 2nd half in the Spurs and Brighton games.

I agree, that's why I said he's done ok. I don't think hes been anything better than that.

 

[Jib]

He hasn't put in a good performance since Bournemouth if we want to be fair. I think it's time to start Sanchez over him this weekend.

Deluded

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

Lukaku & Sanchez are good players - however they just don't fit with Rashford & Lingard the way Martial does.

The last 3 play on the same wavelength & it would be foolish to break that up unless we feel like we need to.

Even if Martial performances have just been 'okay' - there's no need to break a fluid attack; arguably the most fluid one we have had for some time.

It's the same reason I back Lingard currently - we are having good performances & results; with minimal reason to change what it has given us so far.

 

[Jib]

This post is sooo

Martial is playing perfectly fine, just a bit unlucky that things haven't come off for him recently. He's still creating chances for others and posing a big threat, freeing up lots of space for our other attackers to thrive in. (Like Rashford has recently)

Martial & Rashford are our key young attackers. They are our future. Mourinho is gone. It's time to get behind both.

Besides, i would argue that Sanchez and Martial aren't even competing for the same position any more.

Sanchez' legs have gone a bit. He's wasted wide on the wing. He needs to be playing closer to goal where his pace does not matter as much and he can use his creative brain. He's always been more effective closer to goal anyway.

So he should be playing either Matas spot or Lingards spot for me.

An underperforming mercenary shouldn't be allowed to interfere with the development of our young talent.

This

 

[Frank Grimes]

Lukaku & Sanchez are good players - however they just don't fit with Rashford & Lingard the way Martial does.

The last 3 play on the same wavelength & it would be foolish to break that up unless we feel like we need to.

Even if Martial performances have just been 'okay' - there's no need to break a fluid attack; arguably the most fluid one we have had for some time.

It's the same reason I back Lingard currently - we are having good performances & results; with minimal reason to change what it has given us so far.

Definitely think Sanchez still has a lot to offer. I supported United back in the day when we had Sharpe, Giggs and Kanchelskis vying for 2 spots. There is plenty of opportunity for everyone to shine.

To be fair to Sanchez he deserves a chance to see how he performs under Solskjaer' system too.

 

[Jib]

Lukaku & Sanchez are good players - however they just don't fit with Rashford & Lingard the way Martial does.

The last 3 play on the same wavelength & it would be foolish to break that up unless we feel like we need to.

Even if Martial performances have just been 'okay' - there's no need to break a fluid attack; arguably the most fluid one we have had for some time.

It's the same reason I back Lingard currently - we are having good performances & results; with minimal reason to change what it has given us so far.

More important, they don't fit with Pogba.
And this new formation is very good.
Absolutely no reason to bench Martial for Sanchez or Rashford for Lukaku.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

You think he he has done better than ok? 1 assist and 0 goals in home games versus Bournemouth and Brighton and away to Newcastle and Spurs fits the description of ok.

Better than average. Teams commit 2-3 defenders to mark him out the game = more space for others.

Even when the he doesn't statistically provide, it's clear to the naked eye what he does.

Extremely decent imo.

If we had a right winger you'd see innit.

 

[Frank Grimes]

Better than average. Teams commit 2-3 defenders to mark him out the game = more space for others.

Even when the he doesn't statistically provide, it's clear to the naked eye what he does.

Extremely decent imo.

Extremely decent if you wish but we're splitting hairs.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

Extremely decent if you wish but we're splitting hairs.

fair do's

 

[Berbaclass]

Ogden says Sevilla want him

Tweet

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[Majima]

Ok if you must have it broken down for you.

He starts off ok.

Then he goes on to say that Sanchez legs have gone and he needs to be playing closer to the goal. One wold assume he meant striker by this but no he says Mata and Lingard's positions are his competition. Lingard drops deep and moves all over (hardly a role for a player who's legs have gone) and Mata plays on the opposite flank to Martial, hardly closer to the goal.

Finally he goes on to call Sanchez a mercenary, a completely unneccessary dig at a player who has admittedly struggled but no more than most under Mourinho's tenure(Martial included). Basically everything he said painted Martial in the best light possible whilst being completely disrespectful to Sanchez.

Personally I don't care who plays as long as United keep improving and I'd be delighted to see both do better in the coming months.

Sanchez does not suit the LW role anymore. To get the best out of him we need him to be as close to goal as possible. In an ideal world, he would play CF but he's not going to play striker anytime soon is he, so that's not even worth discussing.

That's why i said he can fight for Mata's/Lingard's position. That position on the right is the one where we are looking for an upgrade.

It makes sense does it not to try Sanchez over there, not on the LW or CF positions where we are doing fine. Lingard for all his movement and running does not offer a reliable goal threat for us. Of course it's possible for Sanchez to take over his position if he regains his form.

I like Sanchez. I was over the moon thinking he was coming here to play on the right. But, it is what it is. He is a mercenary who best case scenario is not going to be here for more than 2 years so yes, as good as he can be, shouldn't interfere with Martial/Rashford's development.

 

[Raven]

He is playing but if he doesn't do the business Sanchez deserves a chance to show his mettle under a new manager too. Also not entirely convinced Martial is better than Sanchez.

He has been good since Ole arrived, hasn't been setting the world alight, but he's been good. This is the man who carried us during the hard times. On top of that, Martial has been far and away the better player for at least the last season and a half, I don't see how anyone could argue any differently, but I'd be happy to entertain a discussion on it.

 

[Santoryo]

Has been ok. Would start him v Burnley for sure.

I would also start Sanchez against Arsenal, though that doesn't mean they can't both play together.

What I don't agree with which I've seen mentioned a bit is this idea that Martial should lose his place because he's not doing the business or underperforming. I mean I'd be all for dropping underperdorming players but Martial hasn't been an underperformer under Ole despite him not hitting the height people are expecting from him.

He certainly can play at a level higher than he's shown the past few games but he's still has shown enough to keep his place and can only get better from the base performances he's delivered. He's performed well enough and has so far been an important cog in the way we're currently attacking which is something people also need to consider. With time he'll explode again and people will get to see the sort of performances they're expecting from him(regular goalscorer or assist provider). But even now he hasn't played bad, he's been good for the most part, just hasn't been as productive(goals and assists) as he normally is.

 

[Majima]

I would also start Sanchez against Arsenal, though that doesn't mean they can't both play together.

What I don't agree with which I've seen mentioned a bit is this idea that Martial should lose his place because he's not doing the business or underperforming. I mean I'd be all for dropping underperdorming players but Martial hasn't been an underperformer under Ole despite him not hitting the height people are expecting from him.

He certainly can play at a level higher than he's shown the past few games but he's still has shown enough to keep his place and can only get better from the base performances he's delivered. He's performed well enough and has so far been an important cog in the way we're currently attacking which is something people also need to consider. With time he'll explode again and people will get to see the sort of performances they're expecting from him(regular goalscorer or assist provider). But even now he hasn't played bad, he's been good for the most part, just hasn't been as productive(goals and assists) as he normally is.

Exactly. People start saying stuff like he's not scoring/assisting = not contributing anything. Which is completely wrong. Martial can play games and even without scoring/assisting be productive. He is regularly double/triple marked by the opposition. That is him contributing by itself.

Martial makes the joint highest key passes per game for us along with Pogba. He is more than just a goalscorer. He is a creator as well as a deadly finisher.

 

[Frank Grimes]

I disagree about Martial not scoring or assisting doesn't matter. Martial is one of these players that drifts in and out of games, he's not an all action player and often (not always) if he is not scoring or assisting his effectiveness can be minimal.

Also this idea that Martial is double or triple marked is not accurate imo( not sure where that came from), we're not talking about Lionel Messi here.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

Also this idea that Martial is double or triple marked is not accurate imo( not sure where that came from), we're not talking about Lionel Messi here.

Really? How could that be true if everybody and their pet's know we are lopsided to the left in attack. How does that materialise exactly in terms of opposition defensive structures?

 

[Frank Grimes]

He has been good since Ole arrived, hasn't been setting the world alight, but he's been good. This is the man who carried us during the hard times. On top of that, Martial has been far and away the better player for at least the last season and a half, I don't see how anyone could argue any differently, but I'd be happy to entertain a discussion on it.

Sanchez hasn't played under Solskjaer. Poor guy has been injured bar that one game which escapes me now. Sanchez has done a hell of a lot more in career than Martial, now he can shine under Solskjaer (not necessarily in place of Martial). Just hate the way a lot of people give Sanchez unnecessary stick just because he may threaten Martial's position.

 

[Frank Grimes]

Really? How could that be true if everybody and their pet's know we are lopsided to the left in attack. How does that materialise exactly in terms of opposition defensive structures?

Because United's right side is poor that doesn't suggest that Martial is triple marked. What a silly assertion.