Yes, because their reasons for leaving/voting would be racially motivated.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
- Start date
I generally assume between a quarter and a third of voters in Western countries are clearly racist.
Ofcourse it’s worth asking. I wanted to clarify that’s what he meant and it was not just a badly worded statement.
Also people could argue that too many Eastern Europeans are migrating to their areas and taking up resources and healthcare places which is the normal complaint one here’s from brexiters
Yes and it's usually from racists who don't live in areas with large migrant populations.
I wish there was an island somewhere to get away from all this. One that had WiFi access of course ...
Based on how people in Europe, America and Australia vote. It's an 'educated' guess but I reckon countries would average around a quarter if they had a clear-cut 'should we send them all back' referendum.
Probably get a rough idea by quantifying the far right and extremist parties around the world and how many votes they get.
It's far more complex than that
The British Asian vote for Brexit contains a few surprises
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/02/20/the-british-asian-vote-for-brexit-contains-a-few-surprises/
Minority ethnic attitudes and the 2016 EU referendum
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/minority-ethnic-attitudes-and-the-2016-eu-referendum/
Yes your right that to say a large part was down anti immigration feeling and racism but it is to simply to label it as just that. Because to do that misses a whole part of how racism, xenophobia work. As well as the way national identities are formed and who gets to form them.
I managed to persuade some of them to focus on the bigger implications of Brexit and even got some of them to change their vote but some of the older generation are so stubborn.
Despite being immigrants themselves, they seemed to lack any empathy for people coming over here to start a new life from poorer parts of Europe.
Even stranger was that news story I remember reading about a Polish immigrant who was voting to leave as he didn't want other EU immigrants to enjoy the same benefits as he had. There's a real case of "having a slice of the cake but not letting anyone else eat it" mentality with these sort of people and I'd bet my house that there is similar crossover with the Baby Boomer Bastards.
Thanks for your candid response. Do they even realise that they’re are voters who want them to leave also?
I'm not sure the difference between them and a racist is particularly relevant.
I'm not even convinced people who say racist shit as a matter of routine are technically racist anymore. I think in some cases they'd perfectly friendly and reasonable if they actually had to deal with foreign people. I suspect they dont though and the current narrative that their lives are a bit crap because of foreigners taking their jobs lead to them putting their frustrations, disappointments and spite towards complaining about other races.
Just thought that story @Paul the Wolf was telling a couple of weeks back about visiting people who voted leave and them praising and really talking up the job some polish guys did on their house and their foreign doctor was interesting. Made me question the racism of racists a bit
And voters that think that leaving the EU will stop Pakistanis/Indians/Bangladeshis coming over.
How on earth can you give the power to do something as huge as exiting the European Union, especially with such vague implications, to people as dumb as this?
I have seen a number of incidents where Eastern Europeans and Ethnic minoritie get stacked physically and verbally with people saying things like “your time is up “and “brexit means f@ck off”And voters that think that leaving the EU will stop Pakistanis/Indians/Bangladeshis coming over.
How on earth can you give the power to do something as huge as exiting the European Union, especially with such vague implications, to people as dumb as this?
Racism is a strange one. It tends to manifest itself in a number of different ways. You'll get people who're mostly okay with Eastern Europeans etc but who are fearful of Muslims. You'll get people who're generally negative about immigrants in general...except the ones they happen to know and who they trust. You'll get people who think these things and vote along these lines, without saying so openly. You'll get people who're racist in groups who experience racism themselves.
On the other hand, you'll get people who're outwardly positive about immigration but who quickly resort to nasty stereotypes/generalisations when discussing immigrants and immigration. You'll get people who are fickle, and who change what they think depending on the general mood at the time.
No one is inherently born racist, but at the same time humans do often find themselves falling to innate prejudices to people they conceive as being 'other' or as a threat. If you're looking for the number of Brexiteers who're full-on KKK 'expel all immigrants' racist, then your number will be incredibly small. If you're looking at Brexiteers whose views on immigration/race are at least partly problematic, but not completely irredeemable, then I imagine your numbers will be a lot higher.
On the other hand, you'll get people who're outwardly positive about immigration but who quickly resort to nasty stereotypes/generalisations when discussing immigrants and immigration. You'll get people who are fickle, and who change what they think depending on the general mood at the time.
No one is inherently born racist, but at the same time humans do often find themselves falling to innate prejudices to people they conceive as being 'other' or as a threat. If you're looking for the number of Brexiteers who're full-on KKK 'expel all immigrants' racist, then your number will be incredibly small. If you're looking at Brexiteers whose views on immigration/race are at least partly problematic, but not completely irredeemable, then I imagine your numbers will be a lot higher.
A year after we went into the EU (without a referendum BTW) we had a three day week as we didn't have enough electricity to run industry for longer. We had blackouts and in general it was very chaotic.
There Will Be Blood
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
I take it at this point we assume our government is intentionally trying to scare the public with the realities of 'no deal' so we're willing to accept whatever dismal but preferable one we might be able to manage?
the idea that most of the people who voted for Brexit are racist is something I've wrestled with myself, it's difficult to stomach as a brit, but it can't be true. But for sure, the number of people who voted due to racism is probably much higher than I'd have ever imagined possible pre-Brexit.
Stockpiling food and medicine is the most sensible and competent thing the government has done for as long as I can remember. Proud of our brave Westminster warriors
The main piece of research done post referendum had issues of sovereignty followed by concerns over immigration that gave people cause to vote leave. Having concerns over immigration also doesnt necessarily make someone racist but no doubt there are many who expressed that view those who are racist.
So from just using that basic piece of research it's clear its not just racist people who voted leave and frankly it does appear a bit thick to suggest so. Unless of course you just think, like Mozza, that everyone surveyed was lying and is in fact just a racist in which point any debate is absolutely futile.
I would hope that this would be a well organised logistical process, but with this government I can't shake the feeling that they will actually just end up storing piss in empty bottles of white lightning cider like some lost alcoholic uncle in a dilapidated ex council flat.
“The government is facing further criticism today as it emerges that a warehouse full of iceberg lettuce stockpiled for a no deal Brexit have in fact rotten”.
Come on, every single one of those who voted immigration concerns have done so for inherently racist views (or anti-muslim views mostly). Whether that makes them racist or not is for everyone to judge themselves. Majority of those voting in sovereignty will still have had immigration as a concern too.
There's some brexiteers who had more nuanced concerns about the EU but they're the minimum. Of course they are, only a very small slice of this country even bothers to take interest in politics or arm themselves with the facts.
Good post.
Fwiw I don't necessarily think not wanting more immigration = anything to do with racism. I'm sure a lot of leave voters voted leave to stop immigration purely because they felt it affected their jobs and prospects, probably the vast majority, really. And it didn't help that the leave campaign were spewing so much Xenophobic nonsense towards them every day.
I believe the racist vote swayed it. As did the vote from those that did it on a whim.
My Dad voted leave because he believed stories about it benefiting industry. At least that's a semi-decent reason to vote for it, although I'm still fuming he couldn't see that it probably won't and that he still refuses to acknowledge how bad it's all going. I say semi-decent because most remainers could see it was going to be a mess because there was no plan and the people that really wanted to leave don't want the best for the people, or the world for that matter.
We will never see a benefit from this if it goes through. Why would we? If, by some miracle, anyone does benefit at some point it'll be rich people/politicians, and we'll be told how good it was for the country.
To think how much money has been spent and will be spent on this alone is incredibly frustrating.
My Dad voted leave because he believed stories about it benefiting industry. At least that's a semi-decent reason to vote for it, although I'm still fuming he couldn't see that it probably won't and that he still refuses to acknowledge how bad it's all going. I say semi-decent because most remainers could see it was going to be a mess because there was no plan and the people that really wanted to leave don't want the best for the people, or the world for that matter.
We will never see a benefit from this if it goes through. Why would we? If, by some miracle, anyone does benefit at some point it'll be rich people/politicians, and we'll be told how good it was for the country.
To think how much money has been spent and will be spent on this alone is incredibly frustrating.
I don't think a majority of the Leave vote consciously voted that way because they dislike foreigners, although a decent proportion definitely did. However I do think for a lot of them there were varying degrees of xenophobia/racism in the back of their minds which made them more willing to accept anti-immigrant economic/social arguments at face value rather than bother questioning them. In the same way, the Johnson/Rees-Mogg vision of an independent Britain prospering in glorious isolation from Europe is easier to swallow if you already have an idea that Britain is innately superior and has noble attributes not possessed by the rest of Europe who are inept/untrustworthy/out to get us.
It's undeniable though that the Leave campaign definitely thought racism was a decent 'in' with voters, in my area they sent a letter to every house specifically scaremongering about the prospect of Turkey joining the EU and '80m Turks having free movement to come to Britain'. Doesn't take a genius to see what they're getting at there.
It's undeniable though that the Leave campaign definitely thought racism was a decent 'in' with voters, in my area they sent a letter to every house specifically scaremongering about the prospect of Turkey joining the EU and '80m Turks having free movement to come to Britain'. Doesn't take a genius to see what they're getting at there.
That reads like fairly conscious xenophobia. I get why people have a hard time saying it but there is no hiding from it and it's not just about skin color and religion.
Exactly. And I'm not even sure preventing immigration was necessarily the main reason for most Leave voters. With the financial crisis, austerity and all the general doom and gloom over the years leading up to the referendum, it will have been very easy to buy into a "MBGA" narrative. They were convinced that best way to secure a prosperous future was to stop the EU leeching off Britain (to prop up failed states like Greece) and somehow roll back time to turn Britain into an independent, economic power-house that could make its own decisions about what is best for British people without all the EU regulations and red tape.
There are so many similarities with the US, in that people project their own primary fears/concerns/prejudices onto the "average" voter when there's really a whole constellation of reasons behind the outcome. If you had to pick the one most common reason it would probably be as simple as wanting a change to the status quo. Of course, the tragedy here is that changing the status quo doesn't mean a change for the better; just a change. And boy are they getting what they voted for!
This doesn't make any sense sorry. Your second sentence contradicts the first.
As for the first sentence - on what are you basing this? Are these your own suspicions or can you provide some sort of research ie a survey of those who voted leave on the basis of being concerned about levels of immigration illustrating that "every single one" of them also holds racist views. Are you saying that people can't be concerned about immigration levels without being inherently racist?
Also - how would you describe the difference between racism and xenophobia?
There's one thing above all else I really don't get about this. Obviously a large portion of leave voters were the older generation. But Britain was in economic ruin after WWII and struggled right up until the 80's until they joined the EEC and prospered again. So surely these people know how bad they had it in contrast to now, no? Or maybe they didn't care about the conditions because as far as they're concerned Britain was at least a "free-state" back then where pesky immigrants weren't welcome.
The point I was getting at is that a decent number of them who voted for xenophobic/racist reasons probably don't think they did, they think they're making a decision based on the NHS or jobs or whatever. I agree with you and I can see Mozza's point of view because I honestly do think that a lot more people in this country are racist/xenophobic (i.e - have prejudices/discriminate against people of other races/cultures etc.) than people are willing to accept, just those prejudices aren't always on the surface in the way most people imagine when they think of 'a racist'.
I think the whole thing would be a lot simpler in a way if they all were card-carrying racists.
I doubt they linked the prosperity of the previous 30+ years to the benefits of EU membership. Probably thought it was Britain's robust economy lifting up the rest of Europe, rather than the other way round. Dunno about racism but nationalism/patriotism definitely played a huge part in the outcome. And, to be fair, when it comes to these sort of emotions racism/xenophobia isn't far behind.
Exactly. The majority of people aren't exactly Nazi style racist but it seems that a majority of people, not only in the UK but also most other European countries, are very mistrusting of people who don't speak their language well, practice a different religion or just look very different to them. It's not even that they hate these people but they are often seen as rude or non-integratable if they don't act and talk like the people the "natives" are more used to. It's ignorance and a lack of tolerance for people who are different to them in some way.
I always have a hard time calling these people racists because I don't think there is anyone really and totally free of prejudice towards people who behave or look different to them. As a bourgeois liberal I always held some prejudice against uneducated, working class and religious people in some way that I still haven't fully grown out of but the key is to remind yourself that it's unfair to judge certain perceived groups of people by how their worst actors behave.
The sad part for me is just that some people are unwilling to realize that human beings are actually prone to these types of generalizations and that you have to be willing to put in mental work to overcome it but I guess it's more convenient to look for arguments that support your feelings than be willing to be challenged on them.
No, I just think that there was enough ill will, call it racist, to get the vote over the line. On that, I think we can all agree that if those voting with racist intentions did not vote then this would not have got over the line right?
Are you sure that decade is correct and it wasn't 1973?
The last line doesn't make sense as Britain has always welcomed immigrants from india to the west indies.
Yeah sorry you're right as it was 73 when they joined but I believe it was the 80's when they started to "boom", no?
My history on Britain is admittedly pretty limited post WW2, all I know really is that their economy was in ruins after and took a long time to recover.
Yeah I've a few friends who live in the UK and they said it's quite incredible/mental/terrifying how many older people they talk to who still see Britain as some wonderful empire that they used to be (not that there was anything wonderful about the British empire)
It appears that, as they are expecting failure, they should abandon the whole thing on the basis that the consequences of no deal are so dire.
I just wish anyone could provide one single benefit of Brexit, because I just can't think of any at all.
I just wish anyone could provide one single benefit of Brexit, because I just can't think of any at all.
Oh yeh I'd agree with that completely. I was taking you up on the assertion that voting leave meant you were either racist, thick or both...
And just to clarify I live in an area that voted over 70% leave (I voted remain btw). Yes there are racists here and there are some people who others might regard as thick but there's also those who are are neither who voted to leave. I know people like this.