Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Dobba]

Listening to Cameron now, he's passing the buck on everything to the next Government.

Makes a change from it being the previous Government I suppose.

 

[Minimalist]

This makes me a little more sad, you seem like a good bloke @rcoobc and want to try and understand, but even you have it wrong.

It is freedom of movement for workers buddy, you can't just move to Spain and sit on your arse claiming social. You must register with the new EU country on arrival and you must find work, otherwise you are not entitled to stay.

You certainly don't get benefits anyway (which is something a lot of people believe).

 

[RedSky]

Makes a change from it being the previous Government I suppose.

Very true.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

You certainly don't get benefits anyway (which is something a lot of people believe).

Nope, not as an EU citizen, asylum seekers get benefits due to International Law (note. Not EU law).

Think I had to be in work in Norway within 2 months, pretty certain it was the same in Sweden and then after two years I was entitled to permanent residency if I met the criteria.

 

[rcoobc]

This makes me a little more sad, you seem like a good bloke @rcoobc and want to try and understand, but even you have it wrong.

It is freedom of movement for workers buddy, you can't just move to Spain and sit on your arse claiming social. You must register with the new EU country on arrival and you must find work, otherwise you are not entitled to stay.

I don't think you are right, but who knows at this point. I'm going to cut the the following paragraph into two; blue and red.

The concept of the free movement of persons has changed in meaning since its inception. The first provisions on the subject, in the 1957 Treaty establishing the European Economic Community (1.1.1, 3.1.3 and 3.1.4), covered the free movement of workers and freedom of establishment, and thus individuals as employees or service providers. The Treaty of Maastricht[1] introduced the notion of EU citizenship[2] to be enjoyed automatically by every national of a Member State. It is this EU citizenship that underpins the right of persons to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States. The Lisbon Treaty confirmed this right, which is also included in the general provisions on the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_2.1.3.html

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I don't think you are right, but who knows at this point. I'm going to cut the the following paragraph into two; blue and red.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_2.1.3.html

I am right, have lived in both Norway & Sweden so I know first hand from migrationsverket and our "thrilling" meetings.

 

[mu77]

he's thinking "spain or portugal this summer hmmm."

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Not a good example because a Nokia 3310 has actual, genuine advantages over the Samsung Galaxy: significantly longer battery life, for one, and you can drop it as many times you want, the biggest danger is that it will fall on your foot and cripple you for life. But I guarantee you will be able to call an ambulance with the phone afterwards. It will be undamaged!

touche.

You're making me want a Nokia 3310 now... which means I FINALLY understand how Leave won!

 

[JPRouve]

I don't think you are right, but who knows at this point. I'm going to cut the the following paragraph into two; blue and red.


http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_2.1.3.html

He is right a directive of 2004 forces every EU citizen to register into the new country and he will be subjected to formalities dictated by the said country. Now a EU citizen becomes permanent resident after 5 years, which can be seen as a problem.

This is what you got, in reality. Basically it only gives a lightened procedure but the countries have the last word.

What is covered?

• No-cost, easy, fast issue of visas
• Easy right to stay for up to 90 days if so desired. EU citizens and their non-EU family can work if desired in this period, or play.
• Easy right to stay longer if the EU citizen is working, is a student, or has medical insurance and is self sufficient
• Permanent residence after 5 years
• Right of facilitated entry if passports have been lost, or if a visa has not been obtained
• Applications can only be turned down in three limited circumstances (public health, public policy, national security), or when a marriage is determined to be fraudulent. Reasons for refusal must be spelled out in detail and there is a right of appeal.
• EU citizens and their non-EU family members can not legally be treated differently than citizens of their EU host countr

 

[rcoobc]

I am right, have lived in both Norway & Sweden so I know first hand from migrationsverket and our "thrilling" meetings.

1.9 In 1990 the EC adopted three Directives which conferred a general right of movement and residence on the retired, students and those with independent means, provided that they had sufficient resources and medical insurance.5 This reflected the gradual change which had been taking place in relation to the link between economic activity and free movement – moving towards the idea of migrants as individuals with rights in their host Member State.

1.10 The Maastricht Treaty (The Treaty on European Union) explicitly introduced the concept of Union citizenship into the EC Treaty in 1992, together with a number of associated rights. This included the right to move and reside freely in Member States subject to limitations and conditions laid down in the Treaties and in EU secondary legislation. It created the European Union and formalised the recognition of the status of ‘citizen of the Union’, with the associated rights and duties, for every national of a Member State. The case of Baumbast effectively confirmed the severance of the absolute link between migration and the need to be economically active.

1.15 The emergence of the concept of an EU citizen in the Maastricht Treaty created a new treaty basis for EU competence on social security. The articles currently covering social security, Article 48 and related articles on the Free Movement of Citizens, remain the subject of some debate. While Article 48 clearly states that workers and the self-employed are in scope, the secondary legislation broadened the scope of the rules, bringing in those ‘who are subject to the legislation of one or more Member States’ as well as their dependents and survivors.11 The scope of Article 48 has also been more recently extended further to be a sufficient legal base for certain agreements covering social security coordination for third country (non EEA) citizens.12

1.17 Free movement rights can be exercised by citizens of the 28 EU Member States, their dependants and (in certain circumstances) other family members. They have also, in large part, been extended to nationals of the EEA who are not members of the EU (Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein) and to Switzerland by virtue of two separate agreements. Union citizens also have the right to exercise free movement rights in these States.

1.18 The free movement of persons is an area of ‘shared competence’. However, this means that where the EU has enacted legislation, the UK does not have competence to act other than in accordance with that legislation. Where EU citizens and family members are clearly exercising Treaty free movement rights, the obligations imposed on the Member States in which they reside are largely set out in the EU’s primary law (the Treaties) and in secondary legislation.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...e/335088/SingleMarketFree_MovementPersons.pdf

It's not a simple thing

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I *think* they are two separate things. At least, that's what I have been telling people for the 10 years.

Free movement of workers is secured in the European Community (wiki)

But as an EU Citizen you also get (wiki)

More info:


So at the moment, I think anyone from the EU can come here without a job offer. With free movement of workers though, they may need a job offer before hand, or at least to have a job offer within x months?

if I'm wrong, someone tell me.

It's some of the leavers attitude, they are taking their jobs. I have no problem with people coming here to work and work hard. Not sure the leavers would be happy with that, even if it means keeping out the ones who just want to claim benefits. I just think some of them don't like foreigners, fullstop. Unless they play for their football team of course, which makes them hypocrites.

 

[rcoobc]

He is right a directive of 2004 forces every EU citizen to register into the new country and he will be subjected to formalities dictated by the said country. Now a EU citizen becomes permanent resident after 5 years, which can be seen as a problem.

Interesting.

Fully happy to admit I don't understand all this

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...e/335088/SingleMarketFree_MovementPersons.pdf

It's not a simple thing

Why are you ignoring my first hand experience for laws you can't quite understand?

Not that I can work out what on Earth all that legal jargon means, but as I say, first hand experience tells me I'm correct.

 

[rcoobc]

Why are you ignoring my first hand experience for laws you can't quite understand?

I'm not, just wondered if it had changed!

So what is the difference between what Norway has and what England/Sweden has?

Do you need a job offer to move to Norway?

 

[Adisa]

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[JPRouve]

Interesting.

Fully happy to admit I don't understand all this

It looks quite complicated.

 

[Ubik]

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I think Gove was.

 

[Minimalist]

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Any chance they're out the back of the building working their way through a pack of Mayfair?

"Faaack. *grumble*.. that invertebrate jelly in there calling our bluff..."

 

[Adisa]

I think Gove was.

They weren't.

 

[Fergies Gum]

They weren't.

Gove was there

 

[RedSky]

Gove was there

He apparently walked off early on according to twitter.

 

[JPRouve]

He apparently walked off early on according to twitter.

Organizing a Comexit.

 

[Adisa]

Cameron indirectly called Boris plans and comments bullshit.

 

[redmeister]

Did the Remain camp obviously mislead people at all?

 

[B20]

Not a good example because a Nokia 3310 has actual, genuine advantages over the Samsung Galaxy: significantly longer battery life, for one, and you can drop it as many times you want, the biggest danger is that it will fall on your foot and cripple you for life. But I guarantee you will be able to call an ambulance with the phone afterwards. It will be undamaged!

Only a myopic and backwards thinking neanderthal would prefer a Nokia 3310 to the newest samsung. Have fun dialling back the clock, redneck.

 

[Mozza]

Camerons PR as policy approach to much of his tenure has come back to bite him hard

The needless hammering of the poor through welfare cuts led to a group of voters with nothing to loose. The 100000 migrant cap was a number plucked from the air because it was a nice round figure. This stupid referendum to win a few UKIP votes

I despair that we voted out but I take a small crumb of comfort in his legacy is being shattered

 

[Badunk]

Just watched the Commons there before the footy kicked off. Cameron was pretty obviously calling the Leavers cnuts and liars and that they're gonna have to deal with the mess they've got us in.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Did the Remain camp obviously mislead people at all?

It's hard to mislead when you're campaign is a completely half arsed after-thought

 

[Untied]

Just a thought…

 

[caid]

From the outside, Camerons stance looks pretty petty.
It leaves the door opened to have the decision overturned i guess ...
but hes far from innocent of creating this mess and he should have had some initial plans to ease the transition.

Having no plan whatsoever on how to deal with a referendum he called going against him is just ...
Could he not have had a few meetings with scottish, northern irish etc heads of state to find out what they'd want to happen if you left.
Yeah kicking Boris Johnson in the nuts is kind of funny but its created a total shitshow and is a bit of a farce already.
Its not exactly reassuring

Just a thought…

Thats numberwang

 

[B20]

From the outside, Camerons stance looks pretty petty.
It leaves the door opened to have the decision overturned i guess ...
but hes far from innocent of creating this mess and he should have had some initial plans to ease the transition.

Having no plan whatsoever on how to deal with a referendum he called going against him is just ...
Could he not have had a few meetings with scottish, northern irish etc heads of state to find out what they'd want to happen if you left.
Yeah kicking Boris Johnson in the nuts is kind of funny but its created a total shitshow and is a bit of a farce already.
Its not exactly reassuring

The lack of leadership is worrisome. No one wants to stand up and say 'let's start acting'. Except for Sturgeon.

 

[sincher]

My wife, who has an Indian mother and a Northern Irish father, and was born in London, and is not religious at all, was just told 'You're a Muslim, you go behind me' by another parent when picking our children up from school

 

[K2K]

When will people learn that chancers like Trump and Johnson will say anything to get what they want?

Its scary to see how such comments are not only accepted but celebrated.

People are now openly racist and proud of it. That's just scary to think

The vile nature of those comments.

 

[B20]

My wife, who has an Indian mother and a Northern Irish father, and was born in London, and is not religious at all, was just told 'You're a Muslim, you go behind me' by another parent when picking our children up from school

feck me. Apartheid dickheads.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

can some one explain why free movement is more important then free trade to the EU?

 

[devilish]

can some one explain why free movement is more important then free trade to the EU?

They are interlinked. You can expect freedom of movement of european money but not of European people

 

[soap]

My wife, who has an Indian mother and a Northern Irish father, and was born in London, and is not religious at all, was just told 'You're a Muslim, you go behind me' by another parent when picking our children up from school

My immediate reaction to the result was that things would start to get nasty as the halfwit Britain Firsters become more bullish.

Hope your wife reported this?

 

[sincher]

My immediate reaction to the result was that things would start to get nasty as the halfwit Britain Firsters become more bullish.

Hope your wife reported this?

Too shocked and taken aback. A small chance this person was trying to be 'funny' as he is a bit of a weirdo. But upsetting nevertheless and I am going to watch him like a hawk.

 

[Ixion]

My wife, who has an Indian mother and a Northern Irish father, and was born in London, and is not religious at all, was just told 'You're a Muslim, you go behind me' by another parent when picking our children up from school

I'm not calling all those who voted leave racists, but this tweet sums up my feelings

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They now feel empowered/justified.

 

[AshfordLad]

Corporations in Germany, France and UK benefit a great deal from cheap movement of labour. So free movement of labour is of utmost importance to the EU.