Mockney
Not the only poster to be named Poster of the Year
Corbyn’s played an absolute blinder here, tbf.
Yeah, looks like he has pulled the rug from under Swinson over this. Labour can now attack Swinson as being prepared to back the Tories over austerity but not Labour to prevent no deal.Corbyn’s played an absolute blinder here, tbf.
Very good科尔宾是一个白痴
Except we won't know if the EU will give one until we get an interim government so it's not pointless it's a prerequisite.What sort of referendum does Corbyn want now he's converted, Remain or No Deal, Remain, No Deal or Deal, or something else. I think the Eu would want to know this before they granted an extension, and there ain't no point in an interim government unless we know they will grant one. And if he intends to fight a general election on a second referendum platform then again we would need to know what that second referendum would be. It's not a mere detail, it's the heart of the problem.
As far as I know the only confirmation as yet is that remain would be on the ballot.What sort of referendum does Corbyn want now he's converted, Remain or No Deal, Remain, No Deal or Deal, or something else. I think the Eu would want to know this before they granted an extension, and there ain't no point in an interim government unless we know they will grant one. And if he intends to fight a general election on a second referendum platform then again we would need to know what that second referendum would be. It's not a mere detail, it's the heart of the problem.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...nna-soubry-reject-corbyn-caretaker-governmentDisaster Liberalism
It would have to be included as an option.Except we won't know if the EU will give one until we get an interim government so it's not pointless it's a prerequisite.
I'd be shocked if no deal was included given the alliance would be to prevent no deal.
Well I doubt the EU would grant any extension on the basis of a referendum unless they knew what that referendum was, so that is the real prerequisite.Except we won't know if the EU will give one until we get an interim government so it's not pointless it's a prerequisite.
I'd be shocked if no deal was included given the alliance would be to prevent no deal.
Corbyn is an idiot. His own party are split on Brexit, so he wants an election he can’t win followed by a referendum where he’ll have to pick a side anyway and piss off half his own party.Honestly, which part of 'immediate extension of article 50 and a general election with Labour campaigning for a second referendum' is not what liberals want? What do liberals want?
So what better plan have you got up your sleeve to avert no deal? Maybe he should just not bother as he will just annoy some of you guys on here. dammed if you do dammed if you don't. British people really have got the govt they deserve.Corbyn is an idiot. His own party are split on Brexit, so he wants an election he can’t win followed by a referendum where he’ll have to pick a side anyway and piss off half his own party.
If he had a brain cell in his head he’d support a second referendum first but under a temporary government he leads, followed by an election as soon as the referendum is done.
That way he removes Brexit from internal party politics (he’d lose votes from some Leavers but gain many back from Lib Dems, and once the ref is done he can bring back the leavers who actually care about Labour policies anyway), he’d run the next election on domestic policy where he can slaughter the Tories on austerity and their posh boy policies, and finally if the Lib Dems/Greens/SNP tried to stand in the way of the interim government he could genuinely destroy them publicly for allowing a no deal just because they don’t like him personally. It would put enormous pressure on the small parties to play along, especially as it would be purely a government to enact a referendum.
This really isn’t a complicated calculation, and yet once again Corbyn has to feck it up and create a situation that isn’t going to lead to anything but a Tory no-deal. Good work Jezza, once again you’ve fecked us with your out of touch, high handed wankery.
So in your superior calculations there's enough remainers for remain to win in a referendum but not enough remainers willing to vote for a remain party in a GE?Corbyn is an idiot. His own party are split on Brexit, so he wants an election he can’t win followed by a referendum where he’ll have to pick a side anyway and piss off half his own party.
If he had a brain cell in his head he’d support a second referendum first but under a temporary government he leads, followed by an election as soon as the referendum is done.
That way he removes Brexit from internal party politics (he’d lose votes from some Leavers but gain many back from Lib Dems, and once the ref is done he can bring back the leavers who actually care about Labour policies anyway), he’d run the next election on domestic policy where he can slaughter the Tories on austerity and their posh boy policies, and finally if the Lib Dems/Greens/SNP tried to stand in the way of the interim government he could genuinely destroy them publicly for allowing a no deal just because they don’t like him personally. It would put enormous pressure on the small parties to play along, especially as it would be purely a government to enact a referendum.
This really isn’t a complicated calculation, and yet once again Corbyn has to feck it up and create a situation that isn’t going to lead to anything but a Tory no-deal. Good work Jezza, once again you’ve fecked us with your out of touch, high handed wankery.
There is a remain party but no-one in here wants to vote for them so they must be happy with what they've got. It's quite simple really.The critical bunch in here have been saying for months that if Labour only went remain that they'd win any election
Doesn't that assume that after a second referendum, everyone is just OK with the result and moves on? I'm not a Brit but to me it would be surprising if a general election, even after a second referendum, was about anything but Brexit. Regardless of the result of that second referendum.Corbyn is an idiot. His own party are split on Brexit, so he wants an election he can’t win followed by a referendum where he’ll have to pick a side anyway and piss off half his own party.
If he had a brain cell in his head he’d support a second referendum first but under a temporary government he leads, followed by an election as soon as the referendum is done.
That way he removes Brexit from internal party politics (he’d lose votes from some Leavers but gain many back from Lib Dems, and once the ref is done he can bring back the leavers who actually care about Labour policies anyway), he’d run the next election on domestic policy where he can slaughter the Tories on austerity and their posh boy policies, and finally if the Lib Dems/Greens/SNP tried to stand in the way of the interim government he could genuinely destroy them publicly for allowing a no deal just because they don’t like him personally. It would put enormous pressure on the small parties to play along, especially as it would be purely a government to enact a referendum.
This really isn’t a complicated calculation, and yet once again Corbyn has to feck it up and create a situation that isn’t going to lead to anything but a Tory no-deal. Good work Jezza, once again you’ve fecked us with your out of touch, high handed wankery.
If you've ever seen an episode of a sci-fi programme, where they take out the main baddie and all it's brainwashed minions wake up back to normal but confused about what happened, that's pretty much the Remain theory in regards to a second referendum win/revoking A50.Doesn't that assume that after a second referendum, everyone is just OK with the result and moves on? I'm not a Brit but to me it would be surprising if a general election, even after a second referendum, was about anything but Brexit. Regardless of the result of that second referendum.
Every elections until 2050 will be about Brexit, one way or the other. They opened the pandora box and from a purely political point of view, it's great for all sides because remainers and brexiteers can bring it up until the end of times, they won't even have to think about other policies.Doesn't that assume that after a second referendum, everyone is just OK with the result and moves on? I'm not a Brit but to me it would be surprising if a general election, even after a second referendum, was about anything but Brexit. Regardless of the result of that second referendum.
This is sadly quite true...and said as someone who’d consider themselves hugely sympathetic to the Remain cause (and often very critical of the Corbynist left) The recent blue tick commentariat pining for the halcyon days of the 2012 Olympics all but proved that there’s a decent section of the performatively Liberal centre that see Brexit as the cause of all Britain’s ills, rather than a long stewing symptom.If you've ever seen an episode of a sci-fi programme, where they take out the main baddie and all it's brainwashed minions wake up back to normal but confused about what happened, that's pretty much the Remain theory in regards to a second referendum win/revoking A50.
Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it too.Every elections until 2050 will be about Brexit, one way or the other. They opened the pandora box and from a purely political point of view, it's great for all sides because remainers and brexiteers can bring it up until the end of times, they won't even have to think about other policies.
Very good article in the guardian about the radicalisation of remain voters.This is sadly quite true...and said as someone who’d consider themselves hugely sympathetic to the Remain cause (and often very critical of the Corbynist left) The recent blue tick commentariat pining for the halcyon days of the 2012 Olympics all but proved that there’s a decent section of the performatively Liberal centre that see Brexit as the cause of all Britain’s ills, rather than a long stewing symptom.
I was on a very middle class holiday recently with some perfectly nice but heavily FBPE peeps, who were bemoaning the fact that there’ll be riots on the streets if Brexit comes to pass, and I had to actively remind them, on two seperate occasions, that there already has been, a full year before 2012, because they’d actually forgotten it.
IndeedNice thread title change
No pressure on Corbyn, he's the leader of the opposition so you'd expect him to take charge of any alternative government. As you say he's not there to implement Labour policy so any opposition from the Lib Dems or Tory rebels is either playing politics or self-interest. He's actually the most voted for person in the house given the rest haven't faced an election.It looks likely that if Corbyn stood aside then the Liberals and Tory rebels, who are also necessary for the proposal, might agree to it. As the interim government will supposedly not be there to implement Labour policy then there's no need for Corbyn to be it's leader as far as I can see. The pressure seems to be on Corbyn as much as the Liberals. Stand aside Corbyn, job's a good 'un.
Labour under Corbyn are not a Remain party!! How are people not seeing that already? The very reason he wants an election first is because he thinks he can win a majority and then hold the second referendum with Labour supporting a leave deal they themselves negotiate. He wants to leave, but he wants to leave on Labour terms not Tory terms.So in your superior calculations there's enough remainers for remain to win in a referendum but not enough remainers willing to vote for a remain party in a GE?
The critical bunch in here have been saying for months that if Labour only went remain that they'd win any election. These goal posts must be on tracks the amount they're moved.
Yeah I saw it... inevitably a tad simplistic and driven to a conclusion (as all op-Ed’s are) but certainly not fanciful... there are plenty of Remainers who aren’t political novices, who even virulently opposed the status quo in their day and are aware that the younger generations have grown up with the failures of neoliberalism - many just can’t quite extracate themselves from the belief that the big battles were all kinda won by the late 90s, and the era in which they found themselves the most politically comfortable isn’t automatically the objectively “right” one. They believed Fukuyama.Very good article in the guardian about the radicalisation of remain voters.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/13/brexit-remain-radicalisation-fbpe-peoples-vote
They're all too scared of the consequences.Just get on with it.
The person I'd expect to take charge of an alternative government is the person that would command majority support in parliament, not one opposition party, even if it is the largest. Corbyn's plan may or may not be a good one but it falls down because he himself is the obstacle. The pressure's just as much on Corbyn as the Liberals.No pressure on Corbyn, he's the leader of the opposition so you'd expect him to take charge of any alternative government. As you say he's not there to implement Labour policy so any opposition from the Lib Dems or Tory rebels is either playing politics or self-interest. He's actually the most voted for person in the house given the rest haven't faced an election.
They'll need to give much better reasons than they're currently providing not to face a backlash.
It seems likely Labour and the SNP will be able to come to a working arrangement in parliament. Caroline Lucas and Sturgeon have both publicly come out and asked Swinson to rethink her rejection of Corbyn's proposal. The pressure right now is entirely on the Lib Dems. The idea that they get to dictate terms to the other parties is ludicrous and shows that the Lib Dems are more committed to stopping Corbyn from ever entering Downing Street than they are removing the Tories and preventing a No Deal Brexit.It looks likely that if Corbyn stood aside then the Liberals and Tory rebels, who are also necessary for the proposal, might agree to it. As the interim government will supposedly not be there to implement Labour policy then there's no need for Corbyn to be it's leader as far as I can see. The pressure seems to be on Corbyn as much as the Liberals. Stand aside Corbyn, job's a good 'un.
Think through the process step by step. The government is toppled and a 2nd ref is announced and held. The country is bitterly divided and full of recriminations, BUT a 2nd referendum is ultimately a democratic exercise. Both sides would campaign like crazy, but the result would be delivered direct from the British public not from politicians or pundits, but from the voters themselves.Doesn't that assume that after a second referendum, everyone is just OK with the result and moves on? I'm not a Brit but to me it would be surprising if a general election, even after a second referendum, was about anything but Brexit. Regardless of the result of that second referendum.
...and how quickly do you think a temporary government could implement a second referendum? The best case scenario that has been presented as legally plausible, and this would necessitate the passing of various contentious legislation in parliament, is 22 weeks. Could you see an ad-hoc alliance of Labour/SNP/Lib Dems/Green/Tory rebels lasting that long and being able to achieve all this? The reality is that a general election is almost certainly going to have to precede a second referendum because the parliamentary arithmetic is far too precarious for any sort of "Remain" alliance.Corbyn is an idiot. His own party are split on Brexit, so he wants an election he can’t win followed by a referendum where he’ll have to pick a side anyway and piss off half his own party.
If he had a brain cell in his head he’d support a second referendum first but under a temporary government he leads, followed by an election as soon as the referendum is done.
That way he removes Brexit from internal party politics (he’d lose votes from some Leavers but gain many back from Lib Dems, and once the ref is done he can bring back the leavers who actually care about Labour policies anyway), he’d run the next election on domestic policy where he can slaughter the Tories on austerity and their posh boy policies, and finally if the Lib Dems/Greens/SNP tried to stand in the way of the interim government he could genuinely destroy them publicly for allowing a no deal just because they don’t like him personally. It would put enormous pressure on the small parties to play along, especially as it would be purely a government to enact a referendum.
This really isn’t a complicated calculation, and yet once again Corbyn has to feck it up and create a situation that isn’t going to lead to anything but a Tory no-deal. Good work Jezza, once again you’ve fecked us with your out of touch, high handed wankery.
I'm still trying to figure out the Lib Dems strategy of pissing everyone off by appointing a leader who wants to snuggle up with a no deal brexit collaboration with the Tories. It's such a huge judgement error. Bizarre.Jo Swinson can go feck herself.
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The reasoning for an election before a referendum is should a party that is against 'no deal' win, they have the mandate to take that option off the table in a second referendum.There is literally no reason why a remainer would have any faith in Jeremy Corbyn to keep us in the EU. Which is exactly why he wants an election before a referendum, despite it making no sense to do so.