Pure footballing genius last night to make that tactical switch of moving AWB back to his regular right back position.. genius.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
It was actually 10 shots for Sheffield Utd.
Sheffield Utd average the lowest possession in The PL. 35.3%.
Very few teams don't have 60% or more possession against them. We had 72%. Chelsea had 68% away. Liverpool had 83%. Even Fulham had 74% away. Bournemouth are more of transition team, yet also had 70% possession vs them. Arsenal had 81% away.
Only Burnley and Brentford recently were in the 50's range.
ETH's current league record against the teams we face in May (not including City): 2 wins, 2 draws, 8 defeats, -8 gd
Quite a good final gauntlet for him
Quite a good final gauntlet for him
They were every bit as bad as Coventry were in the first half of the semi final. They are a championship team, basically. Looking at those stats... it must be hard going to watch them every week. They'll probably be relieved to go back to the championship.
Reactions to this game have been interesting to read through. You would swear Sheffield United we’re not factually one of the worst teams the PL has ever seen judging by the extrapolation points and some of the overly positive comments, however.
As a fanbase, we’re all over the place, clinging desperately to any bit of joy, but perspective gets lost in this way. For me personally the biggest joy of the season has been ruining Liverpool’s followed by Mainoo and Garnacho’s seasons. After that, it’s a whole load of meh and reservation, hoping there’s a line drawn in the sand and none of this dross is overspilled into even preseason, let alone the next campaign proper.
It was nice to see a semblance of rest possession and an actual attempt to control a game, tempered by it being against the worst of the worst of the league, but building blocks compared to the awful stuff served up on the other hand throughout the season.
Not fooled nor convinced of anything by a single game, but actually playing something that resembled football was so much more constructive than what we’ve been doing and it better continue to see out the season.
As a fanbase, we’re all over the place, clinging desperately to any bit of joy, but perspective gets lost in this way. For me personally the biggest joy of the season has been ruining Liverpool’s followed by Mainoo and Garnacho’s seasons. After that, it’s a whole load of meh and reservation, hoping there’s a line drawn in the sand and none of this dross is overspilled into even preseason, let alone the next campaign proper.
It was nice to see a semblance of rest possession and an actual attempt to control a game, tempered by it being against the worst of the worst of the league, but building blocks compared to the awful stuff served up on the other hand throughout the season.
Not fooled nor convinced of anything by a single game, but actually playing something that resembled football was so much more constructive than what we’ve been doing and it better continue to see out the season.
I wonder how Coventry would have done had they employed the second half tactics from the first minute.
I just wonder what major trophies would the last 30% of Moyes, Ole's our Mou's transitions would have been.
Supporting any one person above the club is actually a bad thing. No ones bigger than the club.
Nope.
Yeah he lost any support I had for him with that result,I am adamant much as they had 7 goals from 8 shots that it still could have been avoided
But the manager won't have much of a say going forward in who leaves.
Who do you hope will leave if Ten hag stays?
still want Bruno gone? He’s having a right purple patch!
One thing I don’t quite get is that at Ajax it seems he relied quite heavily on Marc Overmars and others supporting him - successfully - then at United he’s been effectively doing 3-4 roles in one. Cant see why either one of United or Ten Hag himself thought that would work
Might have worked better if he’d been supported better from the start, but I feel like he’s at that point now where he’s lost a lot of the clubs confidence and it might be difficult to recover from in the short term
Pretty much how I feel, when people say ''let's given him until Xmas to see how he does'' first off that's stupid because if he does badly (as is higly likely) that's another season needlessly wasted. But more importantly he's already benefited from way more time and patience than any of his predecessors were afforded. Jose and Ole as bad as things got when they were sacked still either qualified out of their much more difficult CL groups or were on course to do it. Due to the takeover saga Ten Hag has basically had a 6 month free pass beyond what he should have had and not only have things not improved, I think we've got worse.To be fair at this point the only reason I can think of why someone would be so willing to persist with ETH is because they've invested so much personal stock in him that the sole thought of backtracking on that feels like too much effort.
Forget about football, no other organization in the world would give another YEAR to someone who has failed so badly at their job, even in corporate world the best you are going to get is 2-3 months to address your issues and if you don't it's curtains. He's already got so much time beyond what he should have got given his failures, yet here we are talking about how maybe it's a good idea to give him a free pass for another year. Any ambitious club would have sacked him after we were knocked out of CL, no manager should have survived that (unless they had massive credit in the bank in the first place, which he quite obviously should not have had) and he's already got 5 months on top of that with no improvement whatsoever (arguably we are even worse now than we were then).
It's insane that it is even a discussion when his failure has been so spectacular. David Moyes is on the verge of being let go by West Ham for having the same season, and here we are talking that maybe ETH should be given another year.
Hi all, longtime member, but not posted since LVG days!
This is probably well trodden ground but wondering how people are looking at any comparison between ETH and Arteta.
Arrera had a pretty terrible first few years, and I imagine there were not many Arsenal fans claiming to see what was being built or that there was a grand plan emerging when they were finishing 8th.
Some of Ten Hags tactical decisions (or unwillingness to change) has been baffling at times, and I fully understand anyone saying it’s gone too far to come back from, but I do find myself wondering what may happen with a good structure, and clear recruitment plan in place.
This is probably well trodden ground but wondering how people are looking at any comparison between ETH and Arteta.
Arrera had a pretty terrible first few years, and I imagine there were not many Arsenal fans claiming to see what was being built or that there was a grand plan emerging when they were finishing 8th.
Some of Ten Hags tactical decisions (or unwillingness to change) has been baffling at times, and I fully understand anyone saying it’s gone too far to come back from, but I do find myself wondering what may happen with a good structure, and clear recruitment plan in place.
Yes but if I hire a handyman instead of an Electrician to rewire my house that's not the handymans fault. But once I realize my mistake nothing good will come from letting him crack on and feck up the wiring in my house, in the hope he somehow, someway ends up doing it correctly. The longer I wait to make a decision and hire someone more suited, the more it's going to cost to put right.
The manager is an employee, nothing more. Statements like this don't help dispel the notion that there's a cult-like attachment to the manager throughout large parts of our fanbase.
Agreed, thats why we also sacked everyone responsible; Woodward, Arnold, Murtough. ETH still has to go though.
Can't wait for a fresh start with INEOS.
Maybe but his mistakes will be long gone if he stays on this summer. Not saying that he should or shouldn’t be but we have people in place now that will sign players to fit a certain style. No more signing his favourites.
In several sports I have heard many coaches say that they dream to have full power, the likes of Canayer(Handball),Ferguson(Football), Noves(Rugby), Bellichick(NFL) or Popovich(NBA) have been envied by others. The only issue being that almost no one is good in that kind of structure it requires a very special mentality and these people are known to have no life outside of their job, they gave 100% and were able to do it at a high standard.
So to me it's not surprising that Ten Hag, Mourinho or LVG wanted to the job under those conditions and eventually realized that it was a bad deal for them. Klopp accepted the Liverpool job under similar conditions but after less than a year he reportedly told the club that it wasn't for him and that a normal DOF-Head coach structure was better with Edwards being his favored DOF option.
We'll NEVER win the league as long as the current ownership and board are here. The rot is irreparable. The team culture is delusional and grotesque. Get rid of the players and personnel who've viewed and used the club as an attraction, theme park or an ATM and get competent football people in.
More like, you hired an electrician to rewire the house, but gave him nothing but a hammer and nails to do the job. Hard to judge how he would have done otherwise.
£400m of hammers and nails that he picked out himself from B&Q
We're Everton now?
That's generous. I could see your point if he wasn't given a staff that he chose and more than 300m worth of players that he chose with a number of them being his former players.
The more apt analogy would be that you hired an electrician, let him diagnose your panel, trusted his judgement, gave him the budget that he required, let him purchase his tools and then he botched the panel renovation. And now you have two options let him fix his mess or let someone else fix it.
More like the electrician you hired us running into trouble with the old wiring and it is fecking up some of the new wiring as well. He knows what the trouble is but needs more time to fix it.
Meanwhile the house is getting sold and some new general contractors are brought in.
Is it not more like you hired a guy to fix the fuse box, let him buy the tools he thought he needed, but halfway through the job he found out all the internal wiring was screwed, the electrical system had been patched up with quick fixes over the last 13 years and now the house is close to burning down if you put the lights on.
The only way through is strip the lot and get a full rewire….i guess the question is now do we have the correct project managers to assist the electrician?
Good point for some situations.
But United didn't hire a handyman. In this example they hired an electrician, and you might only know if he was a top one all along... until he's done the full rewire, and turns the lights on.
In general you know that it isn't a top one when he isn't on schedule, asks you for more money and refuses to explain why he is struggling. It's very unlikely that you would rehire or recommend him to anyone.
My top 3 reasons that ETH should go (plus 1 bonus reason):
1. Spending choices.I don't know how much this falls on ETH but his choices have been outright abysmal. I like Lisandro Martinez, and I even like Casemiro and Hojlund (long term). The loan for Sabitzer was useful. But Onana? We spent 50.2 million Euros. We could have resigned DeGea and be 8 points higher in the table IMO. Would we have been any worse with Dean Henderson? Antony (23/24 0 goals 1 assist)? We spent 95 million Euros on him! That is the highest fee EVER on a right winger. 0 Goals, 1 assist! Compare that with two recent transfers (2nd/3rd highest fee of last four seasons) Brennan Jonson (Tottenham 23/24 5 goals 7 assists) and Moussa Diaby (Aston Villa 23/24 6 goals 7 assists), both sold to the two teams directly above us in the table for 55 million Euros (40 million less!). There are other purchases/loans that have been wasteful/useless, Amrabat, Weghorst, Mount (64 million Euros). The only real impactful purchase was Martinez. This matters because FFP rules and not qualifying for UCL will make it almost impossible to compete with the top 3 moving forward.
2. Game tactics. Most of the injuries we have had have come on the defensive side of the ball. So why have we looked so inept on offense? 24 goals in the first 21 games. One of the reasons our team is so PAINFUL to watch is that unless they are playing a bottom table team, they look confounded when they are attacking. There is no system, no plan. I watch players with the ball who have no idea on what they want to do (Rashford, Antony) and they usually lose the ball. But why is this? Why doesn't ETH have a system? Guardiola does. Arteta does. Klopp does. Emery does. Even Newcastle seems to have a clue on how to attack the goal. A good manager can improve a lesser team with sound discipline and inventive tactics. ETH seemst to be lacking in both.
3. Player handling. Personally, I think the players have given up on him. Not to mention he seems to reach conflict with certain players. Most recently Garnacho, but we've seen it before with Rashford and Sancho. Sancho is thriving in Bundesliga, but he cannot in EPL? I put that on ETH. There was a time that I felt his handling of Ronaldo was brilliant. But we've watched different players at the 9 go hours without scoring (Weghorst, Hojlund, Rashford), how can that be? Maybe it wasn't Ronaldo, maybe it was ETH all along not setting his players up for true success. He asks too much of his best players to atone for his lack of game tactics and that's why we see so many injuries. Personally, I think he has lost the locker room. And that also matters because highly sought incoming players may look to avoid this mess as a result.
4. Seeing his face is starting to make me sick. The team is just awful to watch as a spectator. Unless they are playing the bottom table teams, they struggle mightily. I don't really want to see him on our sideline any more.
1. Spending choices.I don't know how much this falls on ETH but his choices have been outright abysmal. I like Lisandro Martinez, and I even like Casemiro and Hojlund (long term). The loan for Sabitzer was useful. But Onana? We spent 50.2 million Euros. We could have resigned DeGea and be 8 points higher in the table IMO. Would we have been any worse with Dean Henderson? Antony (23/24 0 goals 1 assist)? We spent 95 million Euros on him! That is the highest fee EVER on a right winger. 0 Goals, 1 assist! Compare that with two recent transfers (2nd/3rd highest fee of last four seasons) Brennan Jonson (Tottenham 23/24 5 goals 7 assists) and Moussa Diaby (Aston Villa 23/24 6 goals 7 assists), both sold to the two teams directly above us in the table for 55 million Euros (40 million less!). There are other purchases/loans that have been wasteful/useless, Amrabat, Weghorst, Mount (64 million Euros). The only real impactful purchase was Martinez. This matters because FFP rules and not qualifying for UCL will make it almost impossible to compete with the top 3 moving forward.
2. Game tactics. Most of the injuries we have had have come on the defensive side of the ball. So why have we looked so inept on offense? 24 goals in the first 21 games. One of the reasons our team is so PAINFUL to watch is that unless they are playing a bottom table team, they look confounded when they are attacking. There is no system, no plan. I watch players with the ball who have no idea on what they want to do (Rashford, Antony) and they usually lose the ball. But why is this? Why doesn't ETH have a system? Guardiola does. Arteta does. Klopp does. Emery does. Even Newcastle seems to have a clue on how to attack the goal. A good manager can improve a lesser team with sound discipline and inventive tactics. ETH seemst to be lacking in both.
3. Player handling. Personally, I think the players have given up on him. Not to mention he seems to reach conflict with certain players. Most recently Garnacho, but we've seen it before with Rashford and Sancho. Sancho is thriving in Bundesliga, but he cannot in EPL? I put that on ETH. There was a time that I felt his handling of Ronaldo was brilliant. But we've watched different players at the 9 go hours without scoring (Weghorst, Hojlund, Rashford), how can that be? Maybe it wasn't Ronaldo, maybe it was ETH all along not setting his players up for true success. He asks too much of his best players to atone for his lack of game tactics and that's why we see so many injuries. Personally, I think he has lost the locker room. And that also matters because highly sought incoming players may look to avoid this mess as a result.
4. Seeing his face is starting to make me sick. The team is just awful to watch as a spectator. Unless they are playing the bottom table teams, they struggle mightily. I don't really want to see him on our sideline any more.
That's an interesting one because he installed the current fuse box and it was working last year, things when bad when he modified his own installation. Unless last year didn't happen, in which case you are right.
I'd move on from Ten Hag if I were in control of that decision. So I'm not strictly "Ten Hag in" but I disagree with aspects from all 4 points
1. I don't disagree with letting De Gea go on a free to get his own GK who suits how he wants to play more. What your opinion is of Onana's performances this season is valid and fine. But making that decision in the Summer was a positive one IMO
2. I think one valid argument Erik has is that the injuries have impacted him creating a system. It might be that we wouldn't have one anyway. And I think he should still be finding ways to win, which he isn't. But it must be incredibly difficult to create a system when they can't keep the lineup consistent.
3. Don't watch the Geman league but I'm not sure if he's thriving. I've heard a lot that he's had some stinkers. I also think there are many players who struggle in the PL who did well in the German league. I also accept Ten Hag's reasoning that talent isn't the issue. It is his attitude.
4. It depends what you mean by awful to watch. It's nothing like LvG where we barely shot or did anything. In an LvG game, you could go to the toilet for 80mins and not miss anything. Under Ten Hag it is very action packed even if a lot of that action leads us to saying "for feck sake"
I definitely wasn't talking about today
Don't want to pick on you as you're new, and some of these points have been voiced elsewhere. To be clear, I don't think ETH is going to be here next year adn I think he knows it. But these sticks people are beating him with..at least get the facts straight.
1. Antony is his fault. The fee is not his fault. If Antony had cost what he should have (less than the two players you mentioned) I think people would be more okay with it. ETH identified Antony early, the club waited til the season had started, panicked, and hugely overpaid. That is nothing to do with ETH. Similarly, I've seen nothing whatsoever to suggest ETH wanted Casemiro. There were no links, no rumours, nothing until the moment we went into panic mode and presumably Case's agent came calling. Those two combined are almost half the spending ETH gets abused for. You think ETH wanted players only available on loan? Are you serious? Of course not. And the De Gea argument? You go ahead and let me know how he's getting on with his new club then. Admittedly, he's not conceded many goals this year!
2. We had no fit CF for the first month of the season, our non-creating right-winger was avoiding the Brazilian police, our other right-winger was engaged in a tantrum and our key goal scorer from the season before seems to have forgotten that he likes football. The great savior from fans (Amad) wasn't fit. ETH's new, highly mobile, energy-driven midfield of Mainoo and Mount weren't fit. So, erm, who is it that was supposed ot be doing the scoring?
3. Garnacho runs his heart out every match, you think he's downed tools? Sancho is not thriving in the Bundesliga, he's played 15 times and has 2 goals and 2 assists. In the Bundesliga, where goals come free. I'm not sure of evidence that ETH is causing the injuries somehow, but he obviously did not cause Martinez's, did not cause Malacia's, did not cause Mount's and so forth because these players aren't even playing. Varane gets injured if he sneezes, and did before ETH.
Again, I just challenge people to consider what another manager would do with the players actually made available to him. He's culled off over 23 first teamears since he came in, and brought in barely 10 (not loanees). His great tactical plan was mobility and energy with Mainoo and Mount, and both have missed huge chunks of the season. He wanted a senior CF to lead the line (called Harry Kane) and was given a kid with barely a season of top-level football in him. He is using Ole's first XI with a couple of kids and a new keeper. There is no mystery full back he can call on, or mobile defensive midfielder, or even a substitute centre forward. Look at our bench the last few matches.
If your argument is that ETH is causing these injuries, that's a good reason to turn against him, but I'd love some evidence of that. Otherwise, a manager has to deal with the team he has, and this team, with these injuries, is toast. It's mid-table. And we are.
The problem is that better options are not available this summer. If it meant bringing in Southgate or Potter I'd rather we stick with ETH and focus our energies on upgrading the squad as well as sending ETH during his two week break to a psychiatrist to teach him how to be less stubborn.
For what it's worth, if anyone replaces Hag it won't be Potter since it's now being reported that he is on the verge of signing for Ajax.
In your opinion, no one available could've gotten higher than 50% win rate this season?
I have one more moderated Newbie post for the day….so i might as well spaff it on a bit more metaphorical electrician chat.
I see what you mean about fitting the fuse box, but if you fixed the fuse box and everything seemed great why not crack on with your tinkering….its only once you start messing about that you discover that the inherent problems with your house will always be there and reveal themselves once you think you have a grip on it.
The problems with the current team have been apparent for years….mental fragility, lack of leadership/responsibility, patchwork of skillsets due to being a collection of tools assembled for different jobs, by different handymen, and probably most importantly a severe lack of interest and general care from the owners which has bled into a club mentality of accepting mediocrity.
I find it a bit surprising that so many people are now shocked at the state of things when we were told by Rangnick how bad the situation was. The fact that we put a half decent season together last year seems to have papered over it, and we all got to pretend Ralph was a crack pot because his results were so bad.
At present no matter which electrician , plumber, joiner or whatever we get in the house is fecked….I can understand people that want change, but I’m of the opinion that when you need to rebuild the house it’s pretty pointless picking a contractor till your foundations are down.
Where do you feel Ten Hag should have us? Given the churn of the squad, injuries and giving some talented youth players a chance?
Yes some signings weren't great but some were too. I don't think anyone could have done a flawless job given what he was given. I think he deserves one more summer with actual professionals bringing in players.
Actual professionals were bringing in the players last summer...? They didnt fall off the back of a lorry.
You said yourself that some signings were great.
Only change this summer is that Hag would be getting players forced on him for a system that he isn't capable of orchestrating. Which if all else fails should force him out, along with the wage reduction and refusal to give him a new deal.