Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager

Vapor trail

Full Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2022
Messages
590
Not sure ETH has been considered the type of coach who's relentless in the press ? I haven't seen enough of Ajax to understand this but when Klopp / Pep arrived this was implemented almost at an instant.
 

Mickeza

still gets no respect
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
Messages
10,311
Location
Deepthroating information to Howard Nurse.
It’s interesting seeing the arguments in here - if De Gea and Maguire are reasons why we have the deepest back line in the PL (Maguire has started 2 games ffs) then how did we have the 5th highest in 20/21 under a manager who apparently only played counter attacking football (despite consistently coming from behind to win - could be the reason…) and De Gea, Lindelof and Maguire as our core back 3? For the record I love ETH and have zero issue with playing however we need to until we adjust and get what he needs - but you have to love the agenda pushing.
 

stefan92

Full Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2021
Messages
3,082
Supports
Hannover 96
It’s interesting seeing the arguments in here - if De Gea and Maguire are reasons why we have the deepest back line in the PL (Maguire has started 2 games ffs) then how did we have the 5th highest in 20/21 under a manager who apparently only played counter attacking football (despite consistently coming from behind to win - could be the reason…) and De Gea, Lindelof and Maguire as our core back 3? For the record I love ETH and have zero issue with playing however we need to until we adjust and get what he needs - but you have to love the agenda pushing.
Well, it didn't really work, did it? If ETH is the first manager to recognize that you can't play a high line with those guys so be it.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
10,868
Well, it didn't really work, did it? If ETH is the first manager to recognize that you can't play a high line with those guys so be it.
So if Ole got us 2nd and Europa final with a higher line and it "didnt work", Ten Hag surely has to better than a 2nd and Europa finalist to show that his low block can work.
 

Skills

Snitch
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
37,951
Tbf the underlying numbers seem to agree with the eye test. We have generally been a bit stale all season.

I don't think we were that bad against Brentford as well - 2 of those goals were just freak shows. It happens, but obviously everyone lost their shit because of the optics of it. I don't think we were that great in any of the games after but for once in over a year, we got a break going out way and some positive momentum too and we've kinda just rolled on that.

I'm not too concerned though - get the results for now. It's like what Fernandes said in his interview - confidence is almost everything. You're not going to get a mentally shattered group of players (like the one Rangnick inherited) to immediately adopt new ideas and play out of their comfort zone. Build them up with a few results then introduce new ideas. If Liverpool put a few past us at OT there was no coming back from that, instead that result became a key part of the shift in confidence.

Now, i still believe this group is a bit fragile from last year's thrashings so I hope city don't break them again like they did at Etihad.
 

stefan92

Full Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2021
Messages
3,082
Supports
Hannover 96
So if Ole got us 2nd and Europa final with a higher line and it "didnt work", Ten Hag surely has to better than a 2nd and Europa finalist to show that his low block can work.
It was one of the lowest point totals for second place in the last seasons, so while second place sounds nice he wouldn't have achieved that if other clubs would have performed on the usual level.

So yes my benchmark for ETH would be to beat the points achieved, let's see which position that would mean. Demanding success in cup competitions is always tricky, especially in the latter EL stages you might just have to play against an unlucky CL club, so I wouldn't see this as a benchmark.

And it was mentioned how often United got back in games when the went behind, which shows that they weren't that bad in attack as many often say, but so many comebacks are only necessary if the defense isn't great.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

Full Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2013
Messages
2,710
Location
The rainbow's end
Of course, it didn't work. We conceded 44 goals in the league that season and we had a GD of +24. We shipped in more goals than Liverpool's decimated defence.

The outlier is the 9-0 thrashing of Southampton. Every other clean sheet we kept that season was either against sides who would take the initiative and allow us to sit deep or tight affairs against sides we were expected to win. Slow and ponderous in the build-up, passing the ball backwards and sideways waiting for someone to cook up something.

Not even Mou's fanboys celebrated a meaningless second place that much. Just let the man work. He has basically redesigned the defensive line and, soon enough, we'll have a new midfield partnership in front of them. But, yeah, he's obviously seen the light and he's copying the two masterminds that finished second. Jesus Christ...
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
10,868
It was one of the lowest point totals for second place in the last seasons, so while second place sounds nice he wouldn't have achieved that if other clubs would have performed on the usual level.

So yes my benchmark for ETH would be to beat the points achieved, let's see which position that would mean. Demanding success in cup competitions is always tricky, especially in the latter EL stages you might just have to play against an unlucky CL club, so I wouldn't see this as a benchmark.

And it was mentioned how often United got back in games when the went behind, which shows that they weren't that bad in attack as many often say, but so many comebacks are only necessary if the defense isn't great.
So are you trying to say that some of our league titles mean less than others? Are you part of that crowd?

Just because we won titles with lower amount of points compare to other seasons means, we wouldn't have won 20 titles then ?

Okay, it shows the defence isn't good but it also shows mentality. I dont think we have looked threatening at all when we go a goal down under Ten Hag though. I rather go a goal down and win games than go a goal down and think... oh how many is it going to be?
 

stefan92

Full Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2021
Messages
3,082
Supports
Hannover 96
So are you trying to say that some of our league titles mean less than others? Are you part of that crowd?

Just because we won titles with lower amount of points compare to other seasons means, we wouldn't have won 20 titles then ?

Okay, it shows the defence isn't good but it also shows mentality. I dont think we have looked threatening at all when we go a goal down under Ten Hag though. I rather go a goal down and win games than go a goal down and think... oh how many is it going to be?
I agree on your mentality point and no, I think a title is a title. If everyone else is shit and you are just a bit less shit you still win the title deservedly and did everything necessary that season. But I believe that a third place with 80 points is a better base to win the title the next season than becoming second with 70 points.
 

mu4c_20le

Full Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
30,523
I agree on your mentality point and no, I think a title is a title. If everyone else is shit and you are just a bit less shit you still win the title deservedly and did everything necessary that season. But I believe that a third place with 80 points is a better base to win the title the next season than becoming second with 70 points.
Every situation is different, it is never black and white. Players and I'm pretty sure managers do not give a shit about points totals. When they are sitting comfortably in 2nd and the gap to 1st is too big, they might let off the gas a little bit and focus on other competitions. I dont believe players always give 110% on every match just to pointlessly achieve a higher point total without climbing any more places.
 

Teja

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
3,908
Not sure ETH has been considered the type of coach who's relentless in the press ? I haven't seen enough of Ajax to understand this but when Klopp / Pep arrived this was implemented almost at an instant.
The only explanation is that our players are just thick. Even Tuchel managed it with Chelsea and both Ralf and EtH failed so far with our squad.

Recently when EtH was asked where we could improve, his immediate answer was out of possession. We are getting better - the game against Sociedad was a pretty good case in point where we forced multiple turnovers due to our pressing game. Normally doesn't happen against Spanish sides.

However, our PPDA (14th), High turn overs (16th) are woeful. Part of the reason is tactical - we have tended to intentionally sit back and play on the counter as soon as we score the first goal. But a pretty significant part of it is just an inability to press well.
 

Red Dreams

Full Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2003
Messages
55,026
Location
Across the Universe....from Old Trafford.
@nickm and @DJ_21
Lads. Before a budget is drawn up Goals need to be set.
Any properly run business does this.
We are the best supported club in the world.
Our annual goal has to be the Title. That is a given.
We have not won the title for 9 seasons. It may well be 10 when this season ends.
The reason why we have not won the title is purely down to the owners.
From the Moyes appointment to last season.
The false narrative that has been pushed and unfortunately many have accepted it. That our best has to be Top 4 for some years.
This is what the Glazers want. So they can live off the club.
If FdJ comes in the January window we have an excellent chance. And the money will be there just as the money was there for Casemiro and Anthony.

We have a top manager that will fight for the title. And we the supporters must back him.
 

croadyman

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
18,585
@nickm and @DJ_21
Lads. Before a budget is drawn up Goals need to be set.
Any properly run business does this.
We are the best supported club in the world.
Our annual goal has to be the Title. That is a given.
We have not won the title for 9 seasons. It may well be 10 when this season ends.
The reason why we have not won the title is purely down to the owners.
From the Moyes appointment to last season.
The false narrative that has been pushed and unfortunately many have accepted it. That our best has to be Top 4 for some years.
This is what the Glazers want. So they can live off the club.
If FdJ comes in the January window we have an excellent chance. And the money will be there just as the money was there for Casemiro and Anthony.

We have a top manager that will fight for the title. And we the supporters must back him.
Gut feeling is FDJ will be settled in that Barca team so don't think he leaves in January
 

Yakuza_devils

Full Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2016
Messages
1,695
I think we have had enough of FDJ drama whole transfer window. Not sure it will be worth it going for him the second time. Surely, ETH can find an alternative to FDJ. FDJ can't be that unique, we are talking about a player that can't even get into Barca first 11. This Barca team is in rebuild and not even near to their best teams.

Player like Eriksen contributed very well to our style of play and I'm sure there are players capable of filling FDJ's roles in our team without such drama.
 

Irwin99

Full Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2018
Messages
6,167
Jesus! people STILL harping on about finishing second with a total of 74 points and shipping 44 goals as if it was some sort of monster achievement. Chelsea finished with the same total last season and got to two cup finals and their season was rightly judged as a bit of a let down. Let it go people. It wasn't bad at all but it was hardly a title challenge and pretty much mirrored Jose's second place finish with 81 points and the disastrous season that followed.
 

Longshanks

Full Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2020
Messages
1,191
The only explanation is that our players are just thick. Even Tuchel managed it with Chelsea and both Ralf and EtH failed so far with our squad.

Recently when EtH was asked where we could improve, his immediate answer was out of possession. We are getting better - the game against Sociedad was a pretty good case in point where we forced multiple turnovers due to our pressing game. Normally doesn't happen against Spanish sides.

However, our PPDA (14th), High turn overs (16th) are woeful. Part of the reason is tactical - we have tended to intentionally sit back and play on the counter as soon as we score the first goal. But a pretty significant part of it is just an inability to press well.
You cant successfully implememt a high press without compressing the space with a high defensive line, to implement a high defensive line you need a goalkeeper who is willing to and good at sweeping behind a high defensive line, something our GK is woefully Inept at.

Hence why we have on average the lowest defensive line in the league so far this season. Because ETH has realised this and put us into low risk football In attempt to steady the ship after the disastrous start.

Its not that the players are thick or the forwards are lazy, its that its suicidal to attempt it with a GK like de gea.

Interestingly when Henderson played in 20/21 our average defensive line was second highest, only behind City. Shows the difference a GK that willing and capable of sweeping makes.
 

Teja

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
3,908
You cant successfully implememt a high press without compressing the space with a high defensive line, to implement a high defensive line you need a goalkeeper who is willing to and good at sweeping behind a high defensive line, something our GK is woefully Inept at.

Hence why we have on average the lowest defensive line in the league so far this season. Because ETH has realised this and put us into low risk football In attempt to steady the ship after the disastrous start.

Its not that the players are thick or the forwards are lazy, its that its suicidal to attempt it with a GK like de gea.

Interestingly when Henderson played in 20/21 our average defensive line was second highest, only behind City. Shows the difference a GK that willing and capable of sweeping makes.
Disagree 100%. Our defensive line when we're in the opposition half is quite high.

The average defensive line height stat is low because our tactics are to drop back as soon as we get our first goal and try to hit teams on the counter. Add to that we're incapable of sustained pressure because our pressing is bad (we give the ball away and can't force high turnovers).

You can look at PPDA, High turnovers etc. to see how ineffective our press is.
 

Olecurls99

Full Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2021
Messages
1,382
Jesus! people STILL harping on about finishing second with a total of 74 points and shipping 44 goals as if it was some sort of monster achievement. Chelsea finished with the same total last season and got to two cup finals and their season was rightly judged as a bit of a let down. Let it go people. It wasn't bad at all but it was hardly a title challenge and pretty much mirrored Jose's second place finish with 81 points and the disastrous season that followed.
People say Ole was a joke manager

Other people say a joke manager wouldn't come 2nd

People say stop bringing that up and it wasn't very good anyway

Rinse repeat
 

LoneStar

Full Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
3,433
If we had to prioritise on one player for the Jan window, I would choose a striker. Especially if the right one is available. We don't really need a squad option there, but a clear starter. That would mean big money, so I'm not sure if we'll be getting one.

It also depends on how Martial performs I suppose. He really needs to show good performance consistently, i.e. a good run of games without injury and performing well. In that case, I would be happy with a decent squad player if Ronaldo leaves.

For the summer, replacing DDG should be the no 1 priority. Impossible to play from the back with a keeper who can't pass.
 

nickm

Full Member
Joined
May 20, 2001
Messages
8,537
@nickm and @DJ_21
Lads. Before a budget is drawn up Goals need to be set.
Any properly run business does this.
We are the best supported club in the world.
Our annual goal has to be the Title. That is a given.
We have not won the title for 9 seasons. It may well be 10 when this season ends.
The reason why we have not won the title is purely down to the owners.
From the Moyes appointment to last season.
The false narrative that has been pushed and unfortunately many have accepted it. That our best has to be Top 4 for some years.
This is what the Glazers want. So they can live off the club.
If FdJ comes in the January window we have an excellent chance. And the money will be there just as the money was there for Casemiro and Anthony.

We have a top manager that will fight for the title. And we the supporters must back him.
You are confusing ends and means. Of course our goal has to be the title, but the means for delivering that is the ability to finish consistently in the CL places, which we have stopped doing. That enables us to attract the funds, know how and talent we need to challenge for the title.

Nothing to do with the Glazers.
 

croadyman

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
18,585
If we had to prioritise on one player for the Jan window, I would choose a striker. Especially if the right one is available. We don't really need a squad option there, but a clear starter. That would mean big money, so I'm not sure if we'll be getting one.

It also depends on how Martial performs I suppose. He really needs to show good performance consistently, i.e. a good run of games without injury and performing well. In that case, I would be happy with a decent squad player if Ronaldo leaves.

For the summer, replacing DDG should be the no 1 priority. Impossible to play from the back with a keeper who can't pass.
Yeah Dalot is improving at RB,Eriksen doing a cracking job at CM but definitely lack that out and out striker
 

Red Dreams

Full Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2003
Messages
55,026
Location
Across the Universe....from Old Trafford.
You are confusing ends and means. Of course our goal has to be the title, but the means for delivering that is the ability to finish consistently in the CL places, which we have stopped doing. That enables us to attract the funds, know how and talent we need to challenge for the title.

Nothing to do with the Glazers.
You have missed the point.

The 'means' have been limited by the Glazers. Remember. Not one penny that has been spent has been from them.
It all belongs to the club. Since Fergie the artificial budget and poor recruitment of managers has limited us.
 

city-puma

Full Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2020
Messages
2,063
Location
NYC
Why are some weirdos still discussing Ole. Move on ffs
I think the reason is that some people here truly believe that Ole mainly set up us to play low block, counter-attack football, so that they feel confused why his team actually played higher defense line.
 

Irwin99

Full Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2018
Messages
6,167
People say Ole was a joke manager

Other people say a joke manager wouldn't come 2nd

People say stop bringing that up and it wasn't very good anyway

Rinse repeat
Well yeah, he wasn't a joke but ultimately he failed, just as Jose and LVG and Moyes did. I personally just don't see why people paint the second place thing (on 74 points with 44 goals conceded) as something that really deserves praise or acknowledgement. In a similar fashion to Jose's second place 'achievement' it wasn't really indicative of a progress that was sustainable. You'd equally be very kind to say United's 2017-2018 team was the second best team in England back then too. It's very sad but it's the truth :(
 

nickm

Full Member
Joined
May 20, 2001
Messages
8,537
You have missed the point.

The 'means' have been limited by the Glazers. Remember. Not one penny that has been spent has been from them.
It all belongs to the club. Since Fergie the artificial budget and poor recruitment of managers has limited us.
I get that but my point is not about how good or shit the glazers are (to be clear - they are shit). It's about how it is better to invest in continual improvement, build a platform you can build consistent challenges from, not splurge money on a hit and hope.

I would MUCH rather finish top 3 this season if it improved our chances of a title shot the next 3 years after, than shoot for the moon this season and then fall away the next.
 
Last edited:

nickm

Full Member
Joined
May 20, 2001
Messages
8,537
Well yeah, he wasn't a joke but ultimately he failed, just as Jose and LVG and Moyes did. I personally just don't see why people paint the second place thing (on 74 points with 44 goals conceded) as something that really deserves praise or acknowledgement. In a similar fashion to Jose's second place 'achievement' it wasn't really indicative of a progress that was sustainable. You'd equally be very kind to say United's 2017-2018 team was the second best team in England back then too. It's very sad but it's the truth :(
It's like Leicester winning the title, while amazing, didn't mean Leicester was now a consistent title threat. They deserved it but it wasn't a true indicator of their strength as a club. And our 2nd place finish was not a true indicator of ours (as should have been obvious to anyone paying attention).
 

pascell

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2012
Messages
12,055
Location
Sir Alex Ferguson Stand
Why are some weirdos still discussing Ole. Move on ffs
Same people probably commenting that they hope Martial still comes up with the goods. The guy has played under 5 different managers whilst at United and hasn't improved at all, then went on loan to Sevilla and stunk the place out there too.

Needs to be on the pile with AWB, Lindelof, Shaw and Maguire that need to be sold next summer.
 

mu4c_20le

Full Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
30,523
Jesus! people STILL harping on about finishing second with a total of 74 points and shipping 44 goals as if it was some sort of monster achievement.
It's actually the other way around. People dismiss it as nothing when it doesn't suit their agenda.
 

Irwin99

Full Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2018
Messages
6,167
It's like Leicester winning the title, while amazing, didn't mean Leicester was now a consistent title threat. They deserved it but it wasn't a true indicator of their strength as a club. And our 2nd place finish was not a true indicator of ours (as should have been obvious to anyone paying attention).
Exactly. Sometimes a club's true trajectory isn't reflected in a season's finish and other circumstances come into play. I'm not being negative; just trying to be objective. Neither of our second place finishes in the post Fergie era were really cause for much optimism sadly.

Back on topic (:lol:) I hope EtH will bring something sustainable and I hope the Glazers are fully committed to backing him, not just to finish top 4 and then decide that that is sufficient but to build a title winning or at least a title challenging side. I'm optimistic he knows the challenge ahead.
 

Boondog

Full Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2022
Messages
401
Great interview on United View with Melissa. she's got a lot of insider access and morely importantly, translates it here into great insight.
Haven't listened to all of it yet but so far, she's covered topics like
* The culture change ETH has brought.
* Varanes fitness, the specialised training and how the club had seen him as the best CB.
* The captaincy, Bruno's natural leadership
* Maguire and how cleverly his position has been handled by ETH
* How Ronaldo has been handled as well.

Most things we kinda already know but still, some new content and perspective.
Sky should set her up with her own show. She could be a star in the media, knowing the game plus being so easy on the eyes. Always enjoy her takes.
 

Boondog

Full Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2022
Messages
401
I'm not sure this is a key requirement. Guardiola has had plenty of CBs that aren't that fast.
It isn't. Speed on the outside of course is a premium. From there you want a pairing that can handle a mix of what the league throws at you. I think we have that.

Also I would put our starting CBs up against any duo in a foot race. I don't see them as slow by any means.

Our back line should flourish if and when they get a keeper playing the ball well.
 

alexthelion

Full Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2019
Messages
2,865
You have missed the point.

The 'means' have been limited by the Glazers. Remember. Not one penny that has been spent has been from them.
It all belongs to the club. Since Fergie the artificial budget and poor recruitment of managers has limited us.
Howe is over £1bn artificial? Is it not real money just because it comes from the club, not the Glazers?
 

golden_blunder

Site admin. Manchester United fan
Staff
Joined
Jun 1, 2000
Messages
110,863
Location
Dublin, Ireland
If we had a proper transfer meaning Erik had got the players he wanted before pre season And no Ronaldo drama, we would certainly be among the favourites to win the title.
We would not have started with the two losses.
City are big favourites of course. But we can see United beat anyone else comfortably.

Being ok with Top 4 is conditioning. This is what the Glazers want. They do not want to spend the extra money to win the title.
You can see EtH going all out to win games. He certainly is not settling. And as long time United supporters neither should we.
We should always be competing for the title.
But it is more than that.
Restoring the stadium, training facilities and investing in the future of the club is equally important.

This season? It is not a stretch to expect us to win the title.
City have their usual tumble. Would we be ready to take advantage?
I too do not expect us to spend huge amounts in January.
But getting FdJ is doable. It is unfinished business.
You’re in dreamland. Expecting a new manager to come in, rip the squad up, insert multiple new faces, introduce a new way of playing etc AND win the league in the first year is nothing short of delusional
 

Red Dreams

Full Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2003
Messages
55,026
Location
Across the Universe....from Old Trafford.
You’re in dreamland. Expecting a new manager to come in, rip the squad up, insert multiple new faces, introduce a new way of playing etc AND win the league in the first year is nothing short of delusional
You set goals and plan to achieve it.
There is no certainty we will achieve it. But if you settle for a lower bar, it will be impossible to win the title.
The state of the squad is a direct result of the Glazers and the managers they have hired before EtH.

No one including City look invincible. We have beaten two of the top teams after the early tumble.
It can be done.

But as the Glazer stooges have indicated, there may be no transfers this January window. So your expectation of not winning the league may well be fulfilled.

I am hoping the potential sale of the club is the reason for the 'no transfers' statement.
 
X