Didn't the manager say we're not capable of playing this way?
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
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100% agree.
I think Shaw is a great example of one of those players we have really been missing and last night we saw the Amrabat we all thought we were signing.
One thing I don't see is how Erikson and Casemiro would fit in now, or at least into how we played last night. They don't have the legs. They couldn't push high because they wouldn't have the legs to get back, they couldn't stay deep because they wouldn't have the legs to cover defensive ground (i.e Ambrabat last night).
Not what he said at all...
I think Shaw is one of the good ones. He is one of the players whos attitude and influence we have been missing.
He's only liked that post because the emojis look like two splashes of ketchup and a silver sausage roll.
Redcafe said we didn't have patterns of play
Beautiful, and not a chance that happens if Rashford is playing there instead of Garnacho.
Bruno was pressing like a maniac in the 90 minute whereas Rashfors who just came on jogged around.
ETH finally went back to his roots and finally benching out of form or lazy playeres again
That‘s right, we turned down bids for both McT and Maguire. We were only going to sell them if we could afford to replace them.
They have a good attitude and should not be sold for cut prices. Do that with the slackers.
These are the patterns we saw often last year: quick one touch vertical passes to play through the press. It only works when everyone works hard.
He wanted to replace him (and Maguire) but there was no desperation there given we turned down offers.is it? He was desperately trying to sell the bloke just 4 months ago
Delighted for Maguire, McTom & ETH mind.
Thanks!
He did replace McTom, with Mount.
But as I say, not sure how McTom possibly proving him wrong & now being above Mount in the pecking order is a big feck you from ETH to his doubters?
Mount has been injured more often than he's been available (which is a worry in itself) and given we actually sold Fred, I'd say Mount was his replacement.
This is all very different to "desperately trying to sell" McTominay though, who we kept despite interest.
I've not mentioned the "feck you from ETH" part. Just highlighted it's clearly bollocks that Ten Hag was "desperately" trying to get rid of McTominay.
Well then you've missed the entire point of the debate I was having.
ETH can be desperate but get a "sorry no, we want more money for him" from the board, so keeping him tells us little. Mourinho wanted Martial and Pogo gone and got told by the board to shove it, so I'm entirely sure what your point even is here?
Was McTominay out of favour and up for sale? Yes. Did he start the season in the cold, yes? Does him coming back from the transfer list and the cold mean a big feck you from ETH to his doubters? I don't see it.
That's pretty much all speculation.
Ten Hag was able to see Ronaldo off despite us having no real striker available to replace him in the team, and has been able freeze Sancho out, tanking his prospective sale value, and despite our forward line being woefully ineffective for much of the season.
McTominay didn't start the season because he was a backup player and we had Casemiro and Mount available. He wasn't "in the cold" because he wasn't a starter. He was just appearing in line with his status within the squad.
He has made the most of his chance when his inclusion in the side became a necessity, as did Maguire.
If Ten Hag was desperate to get rid of McTominay he'd have either pushed the board to accept the offer as it was, or given McTominay's minutes to Mejbri or van de Beek.
As an aside, it would be absolutely mental for Ten Hag to have "full control" of transfers, as we keep (falsely) hearing he insisted on but only in terms of being allowed to wildly spend on his own targets, and not sell players he "desperately" wanted rid of.
As for previous managers, Pogba was a Mourinho signing and had been praised by him prior to whatever falling out they had, and Martial had been one of the better players under LvG. I'm not saying it was right that he wasn't allowed to move them along, but it makes far more sense with them, at that time, than it does for a player who has never really surpassed the status of squad player/rotation option.
Again, I didn't mention the "doubters" bit. You're probably right that McTominay playing well isn't really a message from Ten Hag to McTominay's or Ten Hag's respective doubters. It's just a player performing well in a game in which the team as a whole played quite well, having been trusted to step in while typically first choice players were unavailable.
However, it remains quite obvious that there wasn't anything remotely resembling a desperate desire to get rid of McTominay, and you don’t need to make that up or double-down on it to make your point.
As for McTominay: as I said in Raees's thread (link), I think he's primarily playing because he scores goals. It appears there's a bit of an innate ability to that, where some players naturally chip in with goals regularly (provided they are allowed to get to that area of the pitch) and others just don't - regardless of the occasional (mini-)streak. It's an obvious problem for United, that seem to have few players like that. In a low-scoring game like football, that's a big disadvantage. Surely someone of Ten Hag's caliber can see what McTominay lacks in other areas of play and how he weakens the team there; but he's also a proven goal scorer, so I think Ten Hag is accepting those weaknesses and the tactical mess/gaps it creates just to please, finally get some damn goals. Cause good tactics is all very nice, but being Potter's Brighton just leads to many pretty draws, which doesn't lead to the sort of league positions that United demands.
And obviously that's working, McTominay is scoring regularly this season. But there is of course also a balance between the benefit of these goals and the tactical issues, and I think you can see in Rashford how that balance has tipped over the other way for him. Cause he, too, disrupts the intense play significantly; but he is also the only forward that at least once went on a scoring streak (even if it is a while ago now). But I think at this point it's taking too long for him to get back to his goalscoring ways, while the way he disrupts tactics is getting quite bad. And so the balance shifts, and off he goes.
Or at least, that's my interpretation of what's been happening around those two.
I don't think Ajax was mentioned explicitly, but as a couple of posters implied above, this does look a lot like his Ajax side. I'm really not quite sure what Ten Hag meant when he said that he can't replicate that at United. Maybe he was thinking of finer details, like shifting the balance between possession and vertical play even more towards quick verticality? As a tactician who's living and breathing the details of his work, maybe that sort of tweak feels big to him?
And obviously that's working, McTominay is scoring regularly this season. But there is of course also a balance between the benefit of these goals and the tactical issues, and I think you can see in Rashford how that balance has tipped over the other way for him. Cause he, too, disrupts the intense play significantly; but he is also the only forward that at least once went on a scoring streak (even if it is a while ago now). But I think at this point it's taking too long for him to get back to his goalscoring ways, while the way he disrupts tactics is getting quite bad. And so the balance shifts, and off he goes.
Or at least, that's my interpretation of what's been happening around those two.
It would have been like the Arsenal goal last year. It also comes back to the point about being a transition team (which has nothing to do with counterattacking football): when you get stuck, bring the ball back, invite pressure, and then quickly break through the lines. You basically create a transition situation out your own possession that way. Brighton under De Zerbi also do this a lot apparently.
I don't think Ajax was mentioned explicitly, but as a couple of posters implied above, this does look a lot like his Ajax side. I'm really not quite sure what Ten Hag meant when he said that he can't replicate that at United. Maybe he was thinking of finer details, like shifting the balance between possession and vertical play even more towards quick verticality? As a tactician who's living and breathing the details of his work, maybe that sort of tweak feels big to him?
I'm not sure this micro analysing of a single word "desperate" is worth the wall of text in fairness. You either believe that McTominay doing well is a big feck you form ETH to his doubters, or you don't. If you have no view on the point being debated, stop replying to me man.
I've zero interest in continuing to speculate with you on how desperate he was to sell, nor do we need speculate on how much he could or could not push the board into selling on the cheap. Neither of us know in reality, we just know that he had McTom & Maguire on the transfer list and that he is now relying on both. You can see that as a feck you from ETH, or not, I don't really give a shit about whether or not you've gotten your back up about the word "desperate" because it's "speculation" whilst you yourself speculate he wasn't desperate to be honest mate.
You doubled down on the claim.
I've speculated but it's at least supported by actual events from the past 18 months relating to this manager, rather than something a different manager, in different circumstances, working under a different CEO, wanted to do with different players of a different squad status, five years ago.
You wanted to turn it into a pop at Ten Hag by making out he can't see his arse from his elbow when it comes to McTominay and have been proven wrong.
Take the L and move on.
Really curious about Varane. i know Regulon came in and did well last night, but Shaw is a different level. i have my doubts that their goal happens if Varane is playing LCB instead of Lindelof. it is hard for me to imagine that Varane, with all of his experience, can't play alongside Harry.
It's pure speculation from you again, you have no idea.
And of course, you massively failed to see me directly contradict this claim above in my first post. I also said in my second post here that I think Mount will turn out a very good signing.
I'm buzzing for Ten Hag, McTom &B Maguire (as I stated in that first post), I have voted all along for ETH to stay, although I have my doubts after our performances this season, but I don't see how an unwanted, unfavored player doing well is a feck you from him. I think it's good management mind not to alienate players and to give everyone an opportunity to thrive and redeem, and have argued in another thread that he should of course continue to try getting Rashford minutes to find form rather than completely leaving him in the cold.
Seems you barked up the wrong tree here, no wonder the nit-picking.
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So you think that Ronaldo should have stayed? That's the real takeaway from this post for me
We were looking at a potential replacement in the summer if we could get a decent price for him, primarily because he's still not a great fit for the tactics we want to employ.
Maybe I misinterpreted your motive, but I just find it baffling that you'd a) make up that Ten Hag, personally, had a desperate desire to get rid of McTominay, and b) double down on that claim, if you weren't trying to have a dig at Ten Hag in some way. It's just such a weird thing to do.
As I've said, you could have refuted the idea that it was somehow a message from Ten Hag/McTominay without making up and doubling down on a load of shite about how Ten Hag views McTominay.
Is this sarcastic?
i just have a tough time with this entire topic of Light training sessions and how this is a reason or a non reason for the form of some of the players
when you're only playing once a week, of course you're going to have one or two heavy sessions in between matches simply b/c you need to keep the fitness levels while other guys need the fitness
you may even stick to that standard of training when having a midweek match especially at the early part of the season in the first month or two.
this is the time of the season where you back off training for the guys who've played regularly to help take some weight off their legs but for guys who dont play regularly they still need the heavy sessions
EtH has been around long enough to handle knowing when to push and when to back off plus he has sports science data and experienced assistants
heavy sessions have feck all to do with effort and laziness for the likes of rashford and martial
when you're only playing once a week, of course you're going to have one or two heavy sessions in between matches simply b/c you need to keep the fitness levels while other guys need the fitness
you may even stick to that standard of training when having a midweek match especially at the early part of the season in the first month or two.
this is the time of the season where you back off training for the guys who've played regularly to help take some weight off their legs but for guys who dont play regularly they still need the heavy sessions
EtH has been around long enough to handle knowing when to push and when to back off plus he has sports science data and experienced assistants
heavy sessions have feck all to do with effort and laziness for the likes of rashford and martial
Oh feck me, were you one of those absolute nut cases who saw anything slightly negative about Ole as pure hatred and felt a need to get the defence league out?
I don’t agree it was a feck you, but I’m right behind Ten Hag, although I’m not a nut job and I currently have some doubts. All of those things can be true. I tell you what though mate, I’ll change my first post to “he wanted to sell him” to please you, though you’ll see then it changes absolutely nothing about the post, just stops you getting so irate and hung up on a single word. Maybe you’ll be able to see it as a win I hope.
So now that see “desperate or not” doesn’t change my point, do you believe it was a feck you from ETH to doubters, or not, or do you have no opinion of your own? instead you’re just on a crusade to run a managerial defence league? In that case, stick me on ignore, I had enough of those nutters during the Ole years.
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Varane is done here.
Christ, this is some reaction to having it pointed out you said and doubled down on something daft.
For the record, I didn't think we should have hired Solskjaer permanently, then once we did, I was generally supportive but remained unsure of his ability to actually progress us, and thought he actually managed to last a few games longer than he should have. With hindsight, and despite finishing second, we probably could have done with thanking him and moving him along after the Europa League final defeat.
I'm generally pro-Ten Hag, but as much as I enjoyed last night, I've seen too many false dawns to get too excited. We've a tough run coming up and if we revert to type, I wouldn't be overly opposed to him going, even if I think he has been dealt a shite hand overall.
Only one person acting like a nut case here, and it ain't me.
You’ve literally posted walls of text because of one word that once I’ve taken it out of my post changes absolutely nothing about the general point. (See the edited post). You keep claiming I doubled down, when in reality I asked you immediately whether desperate or not “desperate” changed the general point.
But yeah it’s me that that’s nuts.
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You just had a big meltdown about the "managerial defence league" and random posters from two plus years ago defending Solskjaer.
So yes, it's you that's nuts.
The question needs to be asked, why were we up for it last night but not against Newcastle?
prob cause martial and rashford dont want to press/expend actual energy. We were absolutely swarming chelsea at times in a way they never want to do.
It's a system that requires everyone to pull in the same direction, and we had Rashford and Martial meandering about instead of Antony and Hojlund busting a gut.
Makes a big difference when you don't have two passengers.
Couldn’t agree more, IMO that’s, alongside better knowing of managers tactics, the reason why ETH bought in so many players he used to work with.
He wants assurances in player performances to keep him in job rather than depending on overpaid prima donnas that we are stuck with due to our criminal football decisions of the past years.
On the contrary, you wrote a few walls of text based on the belief I was “having a pop at Ten Hag by making out he can't see his arse from his elbow”, a complete fabrication in your own mind so erm…..
We barley stringed any passes together we were cramped into our own half they dominated our midfield with their physicality simple as they are way more solid in their press and defending than Chelsea is at the moment.
He brought in lots of players he knew and the benched most of them, several are clearly not good enough. No other manager in a top club across any major league has EVER recruited so many players on this basis.
For someone so sensitive about "micro-analysing" and "nit-picking", you haven't half narrowed in on me saying you wanted to have a pop at Ten Hag, despite following up by saying I might have got your motivation wrong, but explaining how I interpreted it that way.
I also agreed with you that it wasn't really a message from anyone to anyone about anything, but you've repeatedly missed that too.
I only engaged you on this because of the "desperately wanted rid of him" bit, which you then doubled down on, only to end up editing it out of your post and having a massive tantrum about people defending Solskjaer and blindly defending managers, neither of which are things I've done.
If a few short paragraphs are too much for you and seem like a wall, I can recommend the Biff & Chip books as a starting point to work your way up to something a bit longer.
First PL match of the season, United's line-up had Casemiro as DM then Mount and Fernandes as 8s/10s. Garnacho left, Antony right, Rashford striker.
With Casemiro missing, United are short of players that are good in the air to defend corners and wide free-kicks. Amrabat + McTominay is basically Casemiro + Mount, as was Eriksen + McTominay, even Mainoo + McTominay is a weird version of Casemiro + Mount. If you look at the number of passes Mount attempted and completed during the first two matches, relative to his mins on the pitch, he and McTominay are playing the same role, neither sees much of the ball compared to Fernandes or Casemiro/Amrabat.
The team isn't unbalanced due to McTominay. It's unbalanced because we attack with 6 players, leaving 4 out-field players (2 CBs, DM + one full-back) positioned not inside (or close to) the opposing penalty area. That puts a lot of responsibility on the 4 to make the correct decision as to whether to attempt to regain possession, make a tactical foul, track runners, play offside and so on. We were shambolic against Wolves and still make numerous blunders (see various Chelsea counter-attacks). In theory it could work but it would take a far better understanding of what to do in various circumstances, than seems to be the case right now.
Ten Hag has specifically said this is how he wants the team to play. After the Chelsea match he even explained what he expected of McTominay and of the players that stay back.
Another recurring issue we have is with our wide forwards either not tracking back at all or being too slow to react (Garnacho), thus giving the opposition an overload that leads to confusion in our defence. Many of Newcastle's chances came from this, as did Spurs' opening goal, Galatasaray's 3rd goal.
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Glad he's found an XI that will play for him. That translates into playing for the club, the fans and the badge.
Stick to that formula. We could use a motivated and on form Rashford vs Liverpool, but that's not what we would get so feck it.
Stick to that formula. We could use a motivated and on form Rashford vs Liverpool, but that's not what we would get so feck it.
Much better performance.