It's not atrocious if you have a good sample size, and if you can supplement it with tangible silverware.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
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But is any of it improving to a level where you think he’s surely the man and someone else couldn’t come in and make a better quicker improvement? There’s nothing special about what I see from us, even if you can maybe point to some improvements in some areas. Im just massively underwhelmed.
He's not wrong here though. This kind of statistic completely discards draws. So you could have 65% win rate and lose 35% of your games for instance. I know it's meaningless as anyone with a pair of eyes can see we've been terrible under ETH anyway but still worth pointing out how meaningless of a stat it is as well.
The bigger issue with stuff like win %, points per match, etc. is that the numbers are often not that different.
A calculation of win % for Ten Hag, Ole, and Mourinho in the league gives me 57%, 51%, and 54%. A calculation of PPM gives me 1.83, 1.80. 1.89. If you extrapolate this over a league campaign of 38 games, you get 22, 19, and 20 wins; 69/70, 69, and 72 points.
These are small differences. The swing in points is smaller than the one these managers oversaw for individual seasons, even. It just doesn't tell you much about the manager, imo. It says more about the club and league at a given moment.
A calculation of win % for Ten Hag, Ole, and Mourinho in the league gives me 57%, 51%, and 54%. A calculation of PPM gives me 1.83, 1.80. 1.89. If you extrapolate this over a league campaign of 38 games, you get 22, 19, and 20 wins; 69/70, 69, and 72 points.
These are small differences. The swing in points is smaller than the one these managers oversaw for individual seasons, even. It just doesn't tell you much about the manager, imo. It says more about the club and league at a given moment.
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Sure but even then, their injuries weren't as bad as ours. They were missing 4 CB's. That's just standard for us. They lost their midfielders because rhey had to drop into the back four. Again, not having your first choice CM's? Standard for United.
Remember they struggled whilst having a far superior front 3 as well and a manager who is top 2 in the world.
I meant failed in playing the way they want. They was bad without that DM glueing the team together. Just like we’re bad without ours and other crucial players.
They’re not though. He’s a big part of how they play and Phillips hasn’t been up to the task, which makes his absence seem bigger, but they’re coming off the back of winning the treble. You can absolutely expect complacency from a big chunk of that squad this season.
Can you? I mean it’s not like they’ve just won 3 titles in a row. Didn’t there squad got complacent.
City have lost three games that Rodri missed in the PL. But their last defeat came after three consecutive draws, and he played in all of those. He played in most of City's defeats last season too. It's not as straightforward as 'they fall apart without Rodri.'
But that won't suit the narrative
Interesting podcast from the Scandinavian Supporters' Club. They're really struggling with continuing to back Ten Hag now, but they also say that all the people at the club that they talk to all say the same thing: That Ten Hag isn't remotely the problem, and that sacking him would be a big mistake, because the next manager would just be faced with all the same problems. They also say Sancho is far from the only one who stays up too late, doesn't get enough sleep and is late for practice.
But they have lost three without him and that does generally make sense. He's central to their play and they haven't got any kind of replacement for him. Last season they had Gundogan who could sort of play that role a bit if needed
It's not like we're linking the three losses to a fringe type player.
I am not sure at all. Here is my thought process. ETH is the best coach we've had post Fergie imo. Honorable mention to LVG, even if i didn't like what he was coaching.
Our away performance to barca last year was the best I've seen us play against a big European team since I started watching 23 yrs ago (maybe I'm missing something). Anyway between that and his Ajax performances (with 2 diff teams) i think he is a really really good coach imo.
However this season he has been found wanting in many areas. And after Newcastle I became sack ETH after he persisted with Rashford and Martial in the 2nd half. I also hated seeing McT ahead of Mainoo. In fact after Bournemouth game I said I wouldn't watch if he started McT.
So for me he has benched Rashford, and our intensity and work rate and pressing is markedly improved since Newcastle. Then he dropped McT and played Mainoo. So he has done what I wanted him to. And now he played Amad too. So the signs I'm seeing in the list few weeks is improved pressing, willingness to play Garnacho/Rashford/ Hojlund/ Amad which I am hopeful will improve our attack. And then if you add Shaw, Licha and Case to that, I wouldn't be surprised if things click. If I'm not mistaken something similar happened at Ajax where things suddenly clicked.
But I understand those who want him out, those cut back goals are a criminal indictment of his coaching. That McT for Mainoo sub is almost a sackable offense in itself.
But I explained my reason for keeping him. I understand it's tenuous though. Hope it makes sense.
Fascinating stuff.
I'll be honest, I genuinely don't care where we finish if ETH or someone else can bring about discipline and professionalism to the team. If bolded bit is true
He best hope we start winning games when we have key players back. He sounded confident that he’ll get the results when the injuries are back so he now has to back it up. No more excuses
We need to name and shame more, people should be held accountable.
Our squad are to weak for that. They cry when they get called out. As sancho did
How does a "Scandinavian Supporters' Club" know what's going on inside a Manchester's club?
Is it Eriksen? He does look like a snake.
love u Eriksen xoxo
Is it Eriksen? He does look like a snake.
love u Eriksen xoxo
It's the world's largest Man Utd supporters' club outside of Britain. Presumably they have quite a few contacts in and around the club.
You lot a so desperate you'll quote obviously shit articles like this
Yeah probably. Don't think even the Caf reveal anything new outside twitter bits.
Well then the people at the club are blind to the issues, or this supporters club is getting the wrong info from suspect sources.
We weren't getting results when they were fit, so why would things magically improve? It's like people forget the first few games of the season.
One person equals the whole squad is exactly like that, jesus christ...
Us lot? I didn't post the article..You lot a so desperate you'll quote obviously shit articles like this
May sound weird but some of the stuff people you'd think unlikely to know anything, actually know is surprising.
I have relatives back where my family are from. I always thought I know more about football than them. And yeah in terms of how they play the game etc they are years behind but when it comes to UTD they are fanatical and can reel off stuff I don't even know exists.
They have contacts worldwide that they engage with on regular basis. Me I just read the press here, odd take on Twitter largely due to forums like this and that's your lot.
All this shite about win percentage.
I’d rather focus on that fact the team can’t score goals, can’t beat anyone decent away, can’t keep a clean sheet, finished bottom of a relatively easy UCL group, gets dominated by every team in the league not named Chelsea, has a -5 goal difference. All this whilst outspending the other clubs.
Every single win bar probably Everton (and Chelsea obviously) could have gone either way. The team that needed an Onana save in injury time to get their sole win in the UCL this season. United basically were outperformed by fecking Celtic
I’d rather focus on that fact the team can’t score goals, can’t beat anyone decent away, can’t keep a clean sheet, finished bottom of a relatively easy UCL group, gets dominated by every team in the league not named Chelsea, has a -5 goal difference. All this whilst outspending the other clubs.
Every single win bar probably Everton (and Chelsea obviously) could have gone either way. The team that needed an Onana save in injury time to get their sole win in the UCL this season. United basically were outperformed by fecking Celtic
It would seem more legit if this Scandinavian Club have been constantly a reliable source over the years. If it is so, then yeah I'm on the wrong.
I was just making a general comment that seemed appropriate to be a response to your post.
I'm not suggesting you are wrong or even arguing with your point really.
Just an observation of my experience.
Of course there's always possibility.
There’s been a couple of new additions though. Beat wolves. Should have beat spurs. Lost to Arsenal which isn’t a big deal. And lost to Brighton who are a decent side. But in them games the performances was better. That’s the difference in having your first team players. The performances
Well they seem to down tools. Mourinho use to call players out, like Shaw, Rashford. I don’t think they respond to well to it. Dont get why people like you constantly defend players when they put in 0% effort on the pitch.
https://x.com/magnusbarstad/status/1741852230704144682?s=46&t=PpPpypuCtInaVafXQaMxHQ
Is this his Rashfords brother? Could not post it in Rashfords thread for some reason. Did not wanna create a new since I was not sure?
Is this his Rashfords brother? Could not post it in Rashfords thread for some reason. Did not wanna create a new since I was not sure?
All the statistics and percentages you guys discuss, are absolutely irrelevant.
This season we could have easily won against Arsenal, Spurs, Brighton, Bayern, Gala. 5 games that with wins would have made the entire season look much different.
Also we could have easily fecked up at least 5 games that we won like Wolves, Fulham, etc.
The relevant part is the team performance. We see good offensive performances against open teams. We see terrible offensive performances against defensive teams.
Our defensive performances are mostly dreadful.
We rarely see substitutions change games in our favour. We don't really have a player that you'd always expect to pop up with a game saving moment.
Bottom line is we have weak and average squad that concedes way too many shots and produces way too few.
ETH's system has worked in a few games this season, a few more one before. When it does, it looks great. But now mostly it doesn't. And he seems very lost at moments. That's the most concerning part. Saying that McTominay sub against Forest was good and publicly saying we were better, is absurd. Anyone can see that we lost the midfield because of this substitution. And creating 3 half assed chances and a goal, made by Garnacho's workrate, can NOT be considered "good".
The last saving line for him is the mythical return of injured players. The moment we have Licha, Shaw and Casemiro on the pitch with Rashford, Garnacho, Bruno and Hojlund upfront. Also we are yet to see what's the importance of Mason Mount, who has done feck all, bar an corner assist so far.
Personally, I'm sceptic at this point. Even with our whole first team I expect us to struggle against defensive teams and look good against open teams.
I want ETH to be building something, and I want it badly. But I just don't see it, his transfers don't help me to see it one bit.
This season we could have easily won against Arsenal, Spurs, Brighton, Bayern, Gala. 5 games that with wins would have made the entire season look much different.
Also we could have easily fecked up at least 5 games that we won like Wolves, Fulham, etc.
The relevant part is the team performance. We see good offensive performances against open teams. We see terrible offensive performances against defensive teams.
Our defensive performances are mostly dreadful.
We rarely see substitutions change games in our favour. We don't really have a player that you'd always expect to pop up with a game saving moment.
Bottom line is we have weak and average squad that concedes way too many shots and produces way too few.
ETH's system has worked in a few games this season, a few more one before. When it does, it looks great. But now mostly it doesn't. And he seems very lost at moments. That's the most concerning part. Saying that McTominay sub against Forest was good and publicly saying we were better, is absurd. Anyone can see that we lost the midfield because of this substitution. And creating 3 half assed chances and a goal, made by Garnacho's workrate, can NOT be considered "good".
The last saving line for him is the mythical return of injured players. The moment we have Licha, Shaw and Casemiro on the pitch with Rashford, Garnacho, Bruno and Hojlund upfront. Also we are yet to see what's the importance of Mason Mount, who has done feck all, bar an corner assist so far.
Personally, I'm sceptic at this point. Even with our whole first team I expect us to struggle against defensive teams and look good against open teams.
I want ETH to be building something, and I want it badly. But I just don't see it, his transfers don't help me to see it one bit.
You're missing my point. I never said injuries do not have an impact: I said that good manager's build squad's to respond to this inevitability. ETH has not.
Liverpool and Citeh' have had big players out with long-term injuries, and they are nine, ten points ahead of us, and remain in the Champions League.
Why?
Because they have better squad's, following more assured recruitment, coaching and introduction of younger players. And this is despite their injuries.
City have had one long term injury.
As I asked, how did Liverpool build for their injury crisis? I seem to remember thet had to resort to crappy loan signings.
John Stones has been out. KDB has been out. Haaland has been out. So to suggest Citeh' have had one long-term injury is factually incorrect. And why make the distinction about length of injury lay-off? This actually support the point I'm making, because injuries are both long term, short term... plus suspensions, loss of form. So let's not defend the obviously indefensible. Look at Spurs.. eight points ahead. Lots of injuries. I would summise that every team throughout the Prem, and Championship if you care to look, will have key players missing. It happens.
Liverpool crappy loan-signings? And what was the impact? The same sort of form we're experiencing? Liverpool have been massively competitive and successful for a number of seasons, and look where they are now.. again, having missed key players for very long periods.
I am done making excuses for ETH. He has a decent, not great, but decent set of players and he needs to get the best out of them. Like any good manager.
The squad was assembled quite expensively so one could assume that it should be at least decent. But they seem to be mediocre, moody princesses.
Yeah fully expecting the potential return from injuries to buy him a few more games
I have to agree, injuries are a factor and if we had dropped a few points then it would probably be reasonable, but we have been atrocious in no small part to ETH belligerently sticking to a formation and gameplan which he does not have the players for, he has shown an inability to adapt and make the best of what he has, the teams we have been fielding may not have been world class but still full of players who can perform well enough to have had better showings