Do you really, genuinely think, that any team, any team can rely or expect to have this fully fit, in form squad available, before assessing how the team shall / should perform?So having your key players out isn’t going to affect the team? Martinez and Casemiro are crucial in how we play from the back. We’ve had Luke Shaw also out. AWB has been out, Mount hasn’t had a run in the team yet. Maguire who was getting into form as been out. We’ve not had our first choice defence or a stabled midfield since the first few games of the season.
They will have an impact but they haven’t been crucial in our failures. We began to struggle at the end of last season and have continued on same trajectory, albeit with even worse tactical setup this year. I don’t think we would have done massively better with Martinez and Casemiro, we will see soon (though I guess we won’t be able to judge our form then either because they will have only recently come back from lengthy injuries).So having your key players out isn’t going to affect the team? Martinez and Casemiro are crucial in how we play from the back. We’ve had Luke Shaw also out. AWB has been out, Mount hasn’t had a run in the team yet. Maguire who was getting into form as been out. We’ve not had our first choice defence or a stabled midfield since the first few games of the season.
It really doesn't. Considering most the games Licha has been out for, Casemiro has been out for too. So you should consider in both VDV and Bissouma out as equivalents. Now its pretty big, no? 5 games isn't a small amount at all, its more than 1 month worth of PL fixtures. Also VDV has had 11 PL games and Licha 5, so it's 6 games, not 5. And by the way, Shaw was missing for a lot of those fixtures too, along with Malacia so throw Udogie and Davies both being out for the same fixtures.Van de Ven playing 5 more games than Martinez (sounds less dramatic than DOUBLE THE AMOUNT, I know) has helped them but they’ve still gone half a season without him.
Again, imagine Udogie AND Davies out, AND the back up to Davies. Thats what we were dealt (no Shaw, no Licha, no Malacia and no Regulon for a patch. All whilst Casemiro was out too).Their full backs have been OK but they have had their playmaker and a core piece of their front three out for large chunk of season, which we haven’t. It’s basically different positions being affected, that’s all.
I'm not dramatic. You don't need drama to know that United have had worse injuries than Spurs. You just need common sense.I don’t think you would have been any less dramatic about our worst injury crisis ever if it had been Bruno and Garnacho/Rashford missing instead of Shaw and Casemiro. In fact Bruno missing would have probably been enough by itself to just write off the season and absolve ETH of any blame.
He went off at half time against Chelsea when they were down to 10 men.It really doesn't. Considering most the games Licha has been out for, Casemiro has been out for too. So you should consider in both VDV and Bissouma out as equivalents. Now it’s pretty big, no? 5 games isn't a small amount at all, its more than 1 month worth of PL fixtures. Also VDV has had 11 PL games and Licha 5, so it's 6 games, not 5.
Casemiro's been pretty bad this season to be fair, not sure how much of an impact he'll make when he returns.So having your key players out isn’t going to affect the team? Martinez and Casemiro are crucial in how we play from the back. We’ve had Luke Shaw also out. AWB has been out, Mount hasn’t had a run in the team yet. Maguire who was getting into form as been out. We’ve not had our first choice defence or a stabled midfield since the first few games of the season.
We can, your point will still be disproven. Look back at arsenal for example and our cb situation at HT.He went off at half time against Chelsea when they were down to 10 men.
Imagine having Bruno out whilst also not being able to select Garnacho for the next 2 months. We can go on with this forever.
Objectively speaking we have had more injuries than Spurs, albeit difference is not that big. Our injured players have lost 710 days, Spurs 625. We are in 6th place, Spurs in 7th.I don't need to outbid anyone. United having worse hit injuries than spurs over a longer time isn't even a debate. It's an objective fact.
Done. United are 6th, Spurs 7th in the table of most injured clubs. Albeit, I expect people are gonna come up with ‘buuuut, our injured players were more important’, and ‘Martinez injury is worse than Son’s injury’.Wouldn't it be quite difficult to properly quantify which team has had the worse injury crisis due to factors such as number of different players out, number of days each player has missed, number of matchdays each player has missed, how many minutes the player had before injury etc.
True but I’d rather have an out of form/unfit Casemiro than Mctominay.Casemiro's been pretty bad this season to be fair, not sure how much of an impact he'll make when he returns.
We'd still struggling scoring goals, even with Licha 100% available. Maguire and Evans have stepped up also in Licha's absent.We can, your point will still be disproven. Look back at arsenal for example and our cb situation at HT.
It can't be worse so best believe he will help a lotCasemiro's been pretty bad this season to be fair, not sure how much of an impact he'll make when he returns.
But we likely wouldn't concede as many with a proper defence. We may well have controlled games better with a proper midfield.We'd still struggling scoring goals, even with Licha 100% available. Maguire and Evans have stepped up also in Licha's absent.
The gap between 6 and 7th is pretty big.Objectively speaking we have had more injuries than Spurs, albeit difference is not that big. Our injured players have lost 710 days, Spurs 625. We are in 6th place, Spurs in 7th.
1. Newcastle 892
2. Brentford 873
3. Brighton 772
4. Sheffield 754
5. Chelsea 730
6. Man United 710
7. Spurs 625
Most EPL teams have been hit hard by injuries, so United’s injury crisis is not that unprecedented as people mention in this thread, in fact, 5 teams have been hit worse than us, some significantly more. After Sheffield, we play the worst football of them lot, with Brighton and Spurs playing much better football (and being higher in the table).
Antony was a club signing? Just a coincidence that he was at Ajax?It's not really the number of injuries with United this season, it's the concentration of them being in the same areas.
For instance our options for left back should be Shaw - Malacia - Martinez - Dalot. Not only were the first 3 injured but AWB had been out, meaning Dalot had to cover RB.
The same has been the case for centre half for much of this season meaning we have had to rely on a guy who can only manage 1 game a week and a veteran player who probably never expected to play a game this season. When Martinez did play earlier in the season he had clearly not got over his previous injury.
Much the same for DM.
Up front has been not so bad, injury wise, but there it's poor form (possibly not helped by the defensive issues).
This all leaves areas of weakness for other teams to exploit. Look at the issues City have had when Rodri has been unavailable.
As far as "ten Hag's transfers" I read on another thread (posted by Adnan) that Antony was a Joel Glazer desperation signing after being on the scout list (but deemed to be too expensive earlier on), Onana wasn't the first choice target for keeper and we wanted Kim Min Jae or Todibo this season.
I think Mount was part of the club strategy to look at players with a year left on their contract and should have been an upgrade on Fred given his PL pedigree.
Plus he is notorious for his slow starts…chubby cheeks is gonna need 4-5 games to get up to speed.Casemiro's been pretty bad this season to be fair, not sure how much of an impact he'll make when he returns.
Apparently we'd let the scouting dept. go just before ten Hag arrived and we had no suggestions ready for his targets. He really wanted a forward and the club enquired about Antony, among others, but at 40m he was deemed too expensive.Antony was a club signing? Just a coincidence that he was at Ajax?
Not buying that. The Glazers are to blame for alot, but Antony is on ETH.Apparently we'd let the scouting dept. go just before ten Hag arrived and we had no suggestions ready for his targets. He really wanted a forward and the club enquired about Antony, among others, but at 40m he was deemed too expensive.
Ten Hag had to make his own suggestions (Malacia and Licha) or get no-one. Joel panicked after the 2 losses and splurged on Casemiro and Antony.
And what about liverpools injury crisis. Robertson, Tsimikas, so that’s both left backs, Jota missed most of the first half of the season, Bajcetic (who was meant to be their holding midfielder, Matip (who was being picked ahead of Gomez and konaté) MacAllister missed 6 games, Diaz missed quiet a few also with injury and his fathers kidnapping, konaté missed quiet a few also. Thiago hasn’t been fit since March. Trent is also missing for a few weeks now, Szoboszlai is out for another month, Curtis jones has missed 6games due to injury also.Yeah and the teams who are going through it are all falling off. Newcastle now look shit, Chelsea have been shit most of the season. City without KDB have been pretty middling. Spurs are probably the only club out performing their injury problem.
We for the most part of this season have been missing our corse that made us so good last season. Case, Martinez, Varane, Eriksen and Shaw are 5 players that were pretty integral to our good performances last year. Couple that with Rashford playing like absolute shit then you can see why we’ve been so poor.
Read Adnan's post from yesterday on the Oscar Zambrano thread.Not buying that. The Glazers are to blame for alot, but Antony is on ETH.
The poor recruitment is on the club. Ten Hag arrived at the club and found no existing transfer strategy so hit up his agent to suggest targets. That is why they all have previous connections to him.Not buying that. The Glazers are to blame for alot, but Antony is on ETH.
As if Joel Glazer spent £80m on Antony out of desperation when the scouts had already valued him at £25m. Ten Hag was the one pushing for him.Apparently we'd let the scouting dept. go just before ten Hag arrived and we had no suggestions ready for his targets. He really wanted a forward and the club enquired about Antony, among others, but at 40m he was deemed too expensive.
Ten Hag had to make his own suggestions (Malacia and Licha) or get no-one. Joel panicked after the 2 losses and splurged on Casemiro and Antony.
Casemiro and McTominay don't compete for the same position in the team. How many games has McTominay played as DM this season, 3?True but I’d rather have an out of form/unfit Casemiro than Mctominay.
Another way of looking at it is Ten Hag demanded a big say on transfers, then bought multiple players from the SEG agency that his son works for.The poor recruitment is on the club. Ten Hag arrived at the club and found no existing transfer strategy so hit up his agent to suggest targets. That is why they all have previous connections to him.
A good post, and you're exactly right. My concern is that there are elements of the fan base that are going along with this ".. well, we have injuries..." rhetoric. Just excuses, excuses, excuses. No decent club, manager, company, business, person for that matter, keeps coming out with excuses. Look at Citeh'. Look at Real Madrid. Big clubs, with big players with long-term injuries. The point re Liverpool is well-made. And none of their respective managers go on, and on, and on about it. And look where they are in their respective leagues.And what about liverpools injury crisis. Robertson, Tsimikas, so that’s both left backs, Jota missed most of the first half of the season, Bajcetic (who was meant to be their holding midfielder, Matip (who was being picked ahead of Gomez and konaté) MacAllister missed 6 games, Diaz missed quiet a few also with injury and his fathers kidnapping, konaté missed quiet a few also. Thiago hasn’t been fit since March. Trent is also missing for a few weeks now, Szoboszlai is out for another month, Curtis jones has missed 6games due to injury also.
And now they’ll be missing salah and endo for at least a month due to African cup of nations and Asian cup respectively.
Yet with all them injuries they are top of the league. Every club has injuries. We shouldn’t be using this as an excuse, we are better then that.
The injuries isn’t the problem. Our transfers made by Erik Ten Hag is the problem.
Just think of what we spent. 15mil on Malacia, Casemiro for 52mil on a 30year old with zero sell on value, Martinez at £56m is good but can get bullied in corners due to his height, Anthony let’s just not go there Mount for 55mil who was on his last year in his contract. And he’s been shockingly bad, Onana 44mil and is either diabolical or unbelievable, no inbetween. Reminds me of David james for Liverpool back in the day. 72mil on Højlund who has scored one goal in the premier league. That’s not even taking into account Sancho
Because of rhat we always have a really poor bench. His management of the team is also seriously poor as well.
We had Martinez and Casemiro both available for the first 5 league games. The managers tactics were appalling in these games and we looked just as bad if not worse.So having your key players out isn’t going to affect the team? Martinez and Casemiro are crucial in how we play from the back. We’ve had Luke Shaw also out. AWB has been out, Mount hasn’t had a run in the team yet. Maguire who was getting into form as been out. We’ve not had our first choice defence or a stabled midfield since the first few games of the season.
Why is this thread still going? What is the desperation to defend ETH at all costs. We were awful for long patches in second half of last season, we started this season with most players and were awful. His tactics and subs suck. He signed and then insisted on playign Weghorst who along with Bebe is the worst player ever to play for us. He also did so while not picking Elanga who he then sold, and wasted £85m on Antony who is a championship player. He cant communicate to the press or I suspect the players, remember that's why Spurs passed on him. He was Dutch and a more promising manager than most we have had, but compared to Ole I would take him back, and thats saying something. The football is so, so bad. Its not acceptable. Stop defending him, or at least admit its blind faith. And please all stop whining about injuries when we have the biggest wage bill and one of biggest squads in the league.We had Martinez and Casemiro both available for the first 5 league games. The managers tactics were appalling in these games and we looked just as bad if not worse.
ten Hag has been dreadful this season and there's no excuse for it.
I've said the same before. We've had most players available at various points this season, and it's changed nothing regardless of who starts. When Martinez and Casemiro were starting we still played rubbish football, and people were even saying Casemiro's legs were gone (yet now he's injured, he's apparently indespensible)We had Martinez and Casemiro both available for the first 5 league games. The managers tactics were appalling in these games and we looked just as bad if not worse.
ten Hag has been dreadful this season and there's no excuse for it.
Do you really, genuinely think, that any team, any team can rely or expect to have this fully fit, in form squad available, before assessing how the team shall / should perform?
This is delusional. Look at any club, across Europe.. injuries, suspensions. That is part of football management, part of a football season. Not some 'unfortunate' circumstance. It's really interesting how some see injuries.
Weird rant, Klopp often complained about injuries last season, just as he complained about the effects of being without Van Dijk after his injury against Everton. It's nothing new and it's certainly not something only Ten Hag doesA good post, and you're exactly right. My concern is that there are elements of the fan base that are going along with this ".. well, we have injuries..." rhetoric. Just excuses, excuses, excuses. No decent club, manager, company, business, person for that matter, keeps coming out with excuses. Look at Citeh'. Look at Real Madrid. Big clubs, with big players with long-term injuries. The point re Liverpool is well-made. And none of their respective managers go on, and on, and on about it. And look where they are in their respective leagues.
Dealing with injuries, suspensions and loss of form is part of football management, club management. I think the instant-response-social-media-data-driven-online-football industry is creating a model that doesn't reflect the ongoing, 10 month season which is the football season. Winning a title is attrational. Players will be missing throughout a season. Why do you think SAF always had such a competitive squad? He had FOUR strikers.. remember that? He always had at least four, maybe five central defenders in a squad. None of this is new. None of it.
Now listen to ETH. Always talking injuries. And some of our fan base fall for that crap, and subsequently, the standards and expectations are lowered. ETH has no right to bring such an attitude to Manchester United FC. And he knows it.
Look at our form. Where are we? Out the CL with a whimper. Hoping for a run in the FA Cup, playing the like of Wigan ffs. He doesn't pick Mount even when fit. Casimero isn't someone I think we can rely on this season, he was woeful and uninspiring when he was fit!
So we think Martinez will change it all, after returning from a very lengthy injury to his broken foot?
Some people need to wake up. This isn't Playstation.
They've been available at various points, well then we have nothing to be unhappy about, obviously it gives us more than enough to find our feet in the league. I'm sure the vast majority would be more than happy to consistently line up lindelof as a left back, Evans and Maguire as our CB's and Dalot right back. Or our loss against Newcastle, Reguilon, Shaw, Maguire and Dalot, with McTominay and Amrabat balancing our midfield. Stuff of dreams that, plenty of quality in that, just in the wrong places.I've said the same before. We've had most players available at various points this season, and it's changed nothing regardless of who starts. When Martinez and Casemiro were starting we still played rubbish football, and people were even saying Casemiro's legs were gone (yet now he's injured, he's apparently indespensible)
Those constantly prattling on about injuries act as if most of the first team have been unavailable for the entire season. The fact is we have always had enough quality available to play decent football consistently. Not title winning football, but decent, coherent football. Teams with a far smaller budget manage it.
Blaming injuries for terrible tactics and bad coaching is a complete cop out
The most basic data point we could expect here is "defensive injuries = more goals conceded."I don't understand why some are so dismissive of the overall effects, in combination with having a manager that is new to the league.
GreatThe most basic data point we could expect here is "defensive injuries = more goals conceded."
United have conceded 29 goals in 20 league games. Last season they'd conceded 25 goals in 20 league games. According to FBREF, last season United had an xGA of 50.4, which is a per-game xGA of 1.33. This season they have an xGA of 32.5, which is a per-game xGA of 1.65. That's 1 more "expected goal against" every 3 games. The conclusion those numbers point to is that United have not been affected too much by the defensive injuries, at least not when it comes to conceding goals.
Normally the simplest explanation is the correct one. It's only when that explanation doesn't suit your agenda that you need to go looking for more complicated onesGreat
2+2=4
So every answer that is 4 must mean its 2+2
Just as on numerous occasions it would’ve been the correct decision to sack Arteta. Just as sacking Fergie was a thing in the early 2000’s because he was old and past it. Until it suddenly wasn’t, because contrary to popular belief the simplest explanation and solution isn’t all what it’s made up to be. Then you obviously jump onto another simple explanstion. We win and we are great, we lose and we are shit, it just works.Normally the simplest explanation is the correct one. It's only when that explanation doesn't suit your agenda that you need to go looking for more complicated ones
Yes that’s it. But he also brings drive and direction. To combine that with brains and you have a very useful player.He is far, far too rash in his play and looks like a walking red card at times. I can see why the manager doesn't yet trust him.
People aren't ignoring it. They are considering it, and coming to different conclusions.Also, i haven’t concluded on anything, i’ve just pointed out why i feel it’s bizarre to just completely ignore the actual situation and the potensial effects.
Are we still having these tired discussions. Fergie came into a club that was a mess from top to bottom. He was given time for two reasons. FIrstly he was a proven winner. He took a smaller club to win the Scottish league when Scottish football was pretty decent, and then won what was then a real major European trophy. He was busy rebuilding scouting and youth as well as clearing out a lot of mess and sorting the mentality of the squad. That's why he deserved time. Arteta was more of a gamble for Arsenal but I assume the powers there could see also what he was doing and at least on the pitch you could generally see what he was doing football wise, even if squad was limited. For ETH there is nothing on pitch, its woeful. He looks absolutely lost. As it was for chunks of last season, as are his signings, his tactics, his subs and his pressers. He claims we played well often when it was awful. Get some perspectiveJust as on numerous occasions it would’ve been the correct decision to sack Arteta. Just as sacking Fergie was a thing in the early 2000’s because he was old and past it. Until it suddenly wasn’t, because contrary to popular belief the simplest explanation and solution isn’t all what it’s made up to be. Then you obviously jump onto another simple explanstion. We win and we are great, we lose and we are shit, it just works.
Also, i haven’t concluded on anything, i’ve just pointed out why i feel it’s bizarre to just completely ignore the actual situation and the potensial effects. I’ve said, on several occasions, that i have no idea if Ten Hag will make it here or not. My only agenda is approaching the debate open minded about the reasons for our struggles
Arteta was lucky not to be sacked, very lucky it was a close call.Just as on numerous occasions it would’ve been the correct decision to sack Arteta. Just as sacking Fergie was a thing in the early 2000’s because he was old and past it. Until it suddenly wasn’t, because contrary to popular belief the simplest explanation and solution isn’t all what it’s made up to be. Then you obviously jump onto another simple explanstion. We win and we are great, we lose and we are shit, it just works.
Also, i haven’t concluded on anything, i’ve just pointed out why i feel it’s bizarre to just completely ignore the actual situation and the potensial effects. I’ve said, on several occasions, that i have no idea if Ten Hag will make it here or not. My only agenda is approaching the debate open minded about the reasons for our struggles
Liverpool are years ahead of us, they have a much fuller squad. The equivalent would be looking back at when they had the CB crisis a few years ago and lost 6 home games on the bounce as a result.And what about liverpools injury crisis. Robertson, Tsimikas, so that’s both left backs, Jota missed most of the first half of the season, Bajcetic (who was meant to be their holding midfielder, Matip (who was being picked ahead of Gomez and konaté) MacAllister missed 6 games, Diaz missed quiet a few also with injury and his fathers kidnapping, konaté missed quiet a few also. Thiago hasn’t been fit since March. Trent is also missing for a few weeks now, Szoboszlai is out for another month, Curtis jones has missed 6games due to injury also.
And now they’ll be missing salah and endo for at least a month due to African cup of nations and Asian cup respectively.
As was Klopp last season… could they use an excuse that VVD was out? 1 defender and they was a shambles.We had Martinez and Casemiro both available for the first 5 league games. The managers tactics were appalling in these games and we looked just as bad if not worse.
ten Hag has been dreadful this season and there's no excuse for it.
