F1 2021 Season

BusbyMalone

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Yeah fair enough, I think there's a certain amount of acceptance when it's your guy leading the conga over the line, which explains a little bit why you're happier with this season's procession ;).

I quite like Lewis, but I don't mind Max either (in fact the only person I don't like at the top is Horner, there's just something so slimy about him), so what I want to see is some racing, which doesn't look on the cards this year.
That's certainly a possibility!
 

The Hilton

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I agree. That would have given Merc a small shout. But RB are now way ahead bar a Honda blow up.

What's changed the last few races? It's like Ferrari finding pace a while back.
They've been quickest since the start of the season, it's just that the Merc was a bit easier on the tyres for the first few races, which gave them a chance. Red Bull seem to have made a change to counter that, which has allowed them to press their pace advantage.
 

F-Red

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What's changed the last few races? It's like Ferrari finding pace a while back.
Merc's opinion is that RB have brought aero upgrades, and potentially engine improvements from Honda (despite them being homologated for this season, but more difficult to prove). In an interview post race, Wolff was quite clear that they have no planned developments for this years car and their efforts are on 2022 now. So I think we'll be seeing Red Bull leading at the front for the foreseeable, unless driver/team error or retirement.
 

Buster15

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Yeah, exactly. That's why i made the comment about Hamilton. Obviously most on here love him, so it's like they're saying it's over and it's a procession as some sort of jinx. Kind of like what us United fans do when Liverpool are involved in certain games. "They're never gonna lose it form here" type of thing. Becuase one mistake from Max and it's back on.

It's just nice to have a battle at the top. I mean it COULD turn into a procession, but until then I'm going to enjoy it. Obviously today was pretty straght forward, and possibly nex week. But after the last two or three seasons, it's nice to have someone else up there.
It is not a case of loving Lewis Hamilton. But it is very much a case of huge respect for his natural ability and what he has achieved over the years.
And even now, he is extracting every bit of performance out of the car as is possible.
Bottas is many miles behind.
In truth, the Mercedes is probably over 0.5sec or more slower than the Red Bull judging by Bottas times.
 

Buster15

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Lots of talk here about Horner and of course Max. But we must never ignore the incredible contribution of Adrian Newey.
There was a period a few years ago when he was less involved with the F1 car. And during that time, Red Bull were not competitive. Now he is back working his magic, they have a brilliant chassis as well as brilliant aero package. He deserves much more credit.
 

BusbyMalone

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It is not a case of loving Lewis Hamilton. But it is very much a case of huge respect for his natural ability and what he has achieved over the years.
And even now, he is extracting every bit of performance out of the car as is possible.
Bottas is many miles behind.
In truth, the Mercedes is probably over 0.5sec or more slower than the Red Bull judging by Bottas times.
Well, it certainly is a case of loving Hamiton for most. It's not necessarily a criticism, it's just a fact. Also, the Mercedes is still the faster car, let's not get crazy here. You're making it sound like he's racing in a ford cortina. Using Bottas as some sort of measurement is also a little disingenuous because he's, quite frankly, a poor racer. He should be getting more out of that car. The fact that Hamilton is getting so much more out of the car than Bottas, is an indictment of how poor Bottas is.
 
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Balljy

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Currently the forecast is for rain and scattered thunderstorms for next Sunday. It feels a bit like the forecast there for today, but hopefully one of them hits at the right time next week to add a bit of excitement.
 

Buster15

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Well, it certainly is a case of loving Hamiton for most. It's not necessarily a criticism, it's just a fact. Also, the Mercedes is still the faster car, let's not get crazy here. You're making it sound like he's racing in a ford cortina. Using Bottas as some sort of measurement is also a little disingenuous because he's, quite frankly, a poor racer. He should be getting more out of that car. The fact that Hamilton is getting so much more out of the car than Bottas, is an indictment of how poor Bottas is.
Not sure how you have concluded that the Mercedes is still the faster car. It was but isn't now. And I prefer to take Lewis Hamilton assessment.
He says that it is on average somewhere between 0.2/0.4 second ahead.
So, accepting that, which is backed up by actual data, it is generally considered that Hamilton is worth at least a further 0 2/0.3 seconds. And so, even a conservative estimate puts the Mercedes at 0.5 seconds slower when not driven by Hamilton.
Nothing wrong with a Ford Cortina by the way.....except for - rust, starting problems and reliability. I had the MK1, 2, 3 & 4.
 

hobbers

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Currently the forecast is for rain and scattered thunderstorms for next Sunday. It feels a bit like the forecast there for today, but hopefully one of them hits at the right time next week to add a bit of excitement.
Not buying into the rain hype again.

'Rain all weekend' they said. Translation - 3 spots of rain on the podium.
 

BusbyMalone

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Not sure how you have concluded that the Mercedes is still the faster car. It was but isn't now. And I prefer to take Lewis Hamilton assessment.
He says that it is on average somewhere between 0.2/0.4 second ahead.
So, accepting that, which is backed up by actual data, it is generally considered that Hamilton is worth at least a further 0 2/0.3 seconds. And so, even a conservative estimate puts the Mercedes at 0.5 seconds slower when not driven by Hamilton.
Nothing wrong with a Ford Cortina by the way.....except for - rust, starting problems and reliability. I had the MK1, 2, 3 & 4.
I was making a point about the Mercedes engine still being an incredibly powerful engine, and probably still the most powerful (obviously Red Bull have improved in other areas). You were making out as if Hamilton was performing miracles by comparing him to Bottas which, again, is an indictment of how poor Bottas is more than anything. Obviously, claiming that this car is faster than the other car is an oversimplification, to be fair, because it's also highly dependent on the track. There have been examples this season where the Mercedes have had the faster car. The general point I was making earlier is that I disagree with the consensus that this season is already a procession. And I would wager that if it was Hamilton in the number one spot, we wouldn't be seeing too much of that.

And apologies for throwing shade at the Ford Cortina. I'm sure it's a fabulous car!
 

dinostar77

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Merc's opinion is that RB have brought aero upgrades, and potentially engine improvements from Honda (despite them being homologated for this season, but more difficult to prove). In an interview post race, Wolff was quite clear that they have no planned developments for this years car and their efforts are on 2022 now. So I think we'll be seeing Red Bull leading at the front for the foreseeable, unless driver/team error or retirement.
The one season thats is the longest in f1 history, isn't the one you want all the teams to stop development on the cars so early. But it is what it is.

We have to come:

Austria
British
Hungarian
Belgium
Dutch
Italian
Russian
Japanese
Usa
Mexico
Brasil
Australia
Saudi
Dubai

Most of those tracks, i see RB victories baring weather, reliability, accidents. Its going to become a precession of max victories if Mercedes don't unlock their cars potential.
 

ZIDANE

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It was only in France last time out that Merc including Toto said Merc probably had the fastest race car (not qualifying) but they messed up on strategy. Either way it has been close except this race, Toto said today on Sky it was the first time in 8 years that they were clearly behind on pace - it seems like RB have added updates that go beyond just having a good car around Monaco and they can have a skinny rear wing because of the downforce. I don’t mind, I’m enjoying Merc not winning and fair play on RB not giving up like Ferrari. I’m confident in the regs and salary cap the future will be a lot tighter between multiple teams.
 

Zlaatan

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Not sure how you have concluded that the Mercedes is still the faster car. It was but isn't now. And I prefer to take Lewis Hamilton assessment.
He says that it is on average somewhere between 0.2/0.4 second ahead.
So, accepting that, which is backed up by actual data, it is generally considered that Hamilton is worth at least a further 0 2/0.3 seconds. And so, even a conservative estimate puts the Mercedes at 0.5 seconds slower when not driven by Hamilton.
Nothing wrong with a Ford Cortina by the way.....except for - rust, starting problems and reliability. I had the MK1, 2, 3 & 4.
You can't estimate the performance of a car by looking at the times of a driver that can't drive it to its full potential since that only tells you how fast the driver is, not how fast the actual car is.

It's not like Bottas is extracting 100% of the performance of the car while Lewis is so good he can alter the laws of physics and get 105% out of it, it's more like Lewis is probably very close to 100%, just like Max is, while Bottas and Perez are slightly below that, so the best way to compare the actual performance of the cars is by looking at Max' and Lewis' times, although that's far from an exact science as well.
 

BIGbadBOO4

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Not sure how you have concluded that the Mercedes is still the faster car. It was but isn't now. And I prefer to take Lewis Hamilton assessment.
He says that it is on average somewhere between 0.2/0.4 second ahead.
So, accepting that, which is backed up by actual data, it is generally considered that Hamilton is worth at least a further 0 2/0.3 seconds. And so, even a conservative estimate puts the Mercedes at 0.5 seconds slower when not driven by Hamilton.
Nothing wrong with a Ford Cortina by the way.....except for - rust, starting problems and reliability. I had the MK1, 2, 3 & 4.
Let me get this straight, your saying that the Mercedes is the faster car? Too be honest, if it was not for a tyre blowing up and Lewis winning in races where he should not have won, Red Bull and Verstappan would have won every single race.
Absolutely bonkers to suggest Mercedes have the fastest car this year. Mercedes were slower out of the blocks this year and have admitted they are not spending time upgrading it. I reckon if you offered all F1 drivers to be in red bull or merc nearly all would jump in the red bull.
 

Tiber

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For all Max's brilliance, one retirement and he loses the lead.

Its a real shame he lost out in Baku
 
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Adam-Utd

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softer tyre compounds next race will hopefully mix things up a bit.

A wet race will be very welcome.
 

Buster15

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Let me get this straight, your saying that the Mercedes is the faster car? Too be honest, if it was not for a tyre blowing up and Lewis winning in races where he should not have won, Red Bull and Verstappan would have won every single race.
Absolutely bonkers to suggest Mercedes have the fastest car this year. Mercedes were slower out of the blocks this year and have admitted they are not spending time upgrading it. I reckon if you offered all F1 drivers to be in red bull or merc nearly all would jump in the red bull.
Please refer to the previous posts from someone else who I was responding to and who was arguing that the Mercedes was the faster car.
And no. Of course I was not saying that the Mercedes was the faster car. That would be stupid.
See Busby Malone
 

Buster15

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You can't estimate the performance of a car by looking at the times of a driver that can't drive it to its full potential since that only tells you how fast the driver is, not how fast the actual car is.

It's not like Bottas is extracting 100% of the performance of the car while Lewis is so good he can alter the laws of physics and get 105% out of it, it's more like Lewis is probably very close to 100%, just like Max is, while Bottas and Perez are slightly below that, so the best way to compare the actual performance of the cars is by looking at Max' and Lewis' times, although that's far from an exact science as well.
But you can estimate the true speed of the car by saying that it is probably somewhere in between the two drivers.
What I was pointed out was that Hamilton was extracting more performance out of the car and Bottas less. And so, it is reasonable to argue that the true speed of the car is slower than Hamilton and faster than Bottas.
 

Dan_F

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For all Max's brilliance, one retirement and he loses the lead.

Its a real shame he lost out in Baku
That’s always the case when there’s two people actually fighting for the title. It feels like Rosberg/Hamilton was the last time that happened, with Hamilton losing the title due to reliability.

It will be disappointing if Mercedes give up on the car and we don’t see what we thought we would after the first couple of races. As soon as everyone starts wanting rain, it’s a sign that the race was boring as hell.
 

dinostar77

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It will be interesting to see what Mercedes do. Hamilton said yesterday they need an upgrade either rear wing or engine. Totto was saying they weren't gonna try to do any major upgrades for this season. However yesterday was the first time in 8 years that Mercedes got spanked on pace genuinely.
 

Adam-Utd

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It will be interesting to see what Mercedes do. Hamilton said yesterday they need an upgrade either rear wing or engine. Totto was saying they weren't gonna try to do any major upgrades for this season. However yesterday was the first time in 8 years that Mercedes got spanked on pace genuinely.
I don't really see what they can do apart from spending a lot of time and money to try and claw back the performance.

Red Bull with their high rake design just has a huge natural advantage that Mercedes won't ever be able to match. It seems now they've realised they can still compete on the downforce levels with a tiny wing it's game over.

Only DNF's or bad luck willl stop Verstappen this year IMO.
 

pauldyson1uk

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I watched some of the highlight, clearly RB have the fastest car this season , looks like they are the only ones spending on upgrades.
Even the races Lewis has won this season has been by accidents to the RB, not Lewis beating Max.
Maybe Mercedes have already conceded the season ? Concentrating on next season.
I am shocked that the RB have got so far ahead this year, but fair play to them.
 

Adam-Utd

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I watched some of the highlight, clearly RB have the fastest car this season , looks like they are the only ones spending on upgrades.
Even the races Lewis has won this season has been by accidents to the RB, not Lewis beating Max.
Maybe Mercedes have already conceded the season ? Concentrating on next season.
I am shocked that the RB have got so far ahead this year, but fair play to them.
It's more a combination of honda improving, RB naturally making improvements and the FIA purposely aiming at Mercedes to take away a huge chunk of their rear downforce.

They said on commentary that red bull had a 30 second swing from last Austria to this year. That's a huge improvement which shouldn't be possible without hurting Merc directly.
 

pauldyson1uk

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It's more a combination of honda improving, RB naturally making improvements and the FIA purposely aiming at Mercedes to take away a huge chunk of their rear downforce.

They said on commentary that red bull had a 30 second swing from last Austria to this year. That's a huge improvement which shouldn't be possible without hurting Merc directly.
a 30 sec swing is massive.
Lets see what the next race holds for Mercedes.
 

Adam-Utd

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a 30 sec swing is massive.
Lets see what the next race holds for Mercedes.
Think they might be closer, they're using softer tyres for the next race. The 1 area Mercedes have shown to be a little better was on tyre management - if it's a wet race too that could help even out the downforce levels.
 

BIGbadBOO4

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Please refer to the previous posts from someone else who I was responding to and who was arguing that the Mercedes was the faster car.
And no. Of course I was not saying that the Mercedes was the faster car. That would be stupid.
See Busby Malone
Sorry buddy.
 

Leg-End

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Think they might be closer, they're using softer tyres for the next race. The 1 area Mercedes have shown to be a little better was on tyre management - if it's a wet race too that could help even out the downforce levels.
Mercedes has worse wear than Red Bull on Sunday so for this track I don't think softer tyres help Mercedes. They mentioned doing something different on setup which may have contributed to that change though, let's see if they get on top of it.
 
Styrian GP Result

pauldyson1uk

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RankDriverNumberTeamGridPitsFastest LapRace TimePoints
1Max Verstappen33Red Bull111:08.0171:22:18.92525
2Lewis Hamilton44Mercedes22
fastest overall lap 1:07.058
35.743 behind19
3Valtteri Bottas77Mercedes511:08.61946.907 behind15
4Sergio Perez11Red Bull421:07.89447.434 behind12
Lando Norris4McLaren311:08.9031 lap behind10
6Carlos Sainz Jnr55Ferrari1211:08.6091 lap behind8
7Charles Leclerc16Ferrari721:08.7381 lap behind6
8Lance Stroll18Aston Martin911:09.7871 lap behind4
9Fernando Alonso14Alpine811:09.7491 lap behind2
10Yuki Tsunoda22AlphaTauri1111:09.6501 lap behind1
11Kimi Raikkonen7Alfa Romeo1811:09.1281 lap behind0
12Sebastian Vettel5Aston Martin1411:09.8211 lap behind0
13Daniel Ricciardo3McLaren1311:09.3051 lap behind0
14Esteban Ocon31Alpine1711:09.5761 lap behind0
15Antonio Giovinazzi99Alfa Romeo1511:09.7231 lap behind0
16Mick Schumacher47Haas1911:10.0052 laps behind0
17Nicholas Latifi6Williams1621:10.1043 laps behind0
18Nikita Mazepin9Haas2011:10.9513 laps behind0
not classifiedGeorge Russell63Williams1021:10.499did not finish completed 36 laps0
not classifiedPierre Gasly10AlphaTauri60not available-did not finish completed 1 lap0
 
Fantasy Standings after Styrian GP.

pauldyson1uk

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Fantasy Standings after Styrian GP.
senorgregster holding on to the top spot.
Mid table mediocrity for me.
1st
senorgregster​
841​
X
2nd
emm​
EMM
810​
X
3rd
chaddyp​
807​
X
4th
venkman​
798​
X
5th
manoucha​
791​
X
6th
coleworld​
739​
X
7th
christy87​
732​
X
8th
leg-end7​
731​
X
9th
jtw95​
728​
X
10th
pauldyson1uk​
728​
X
11th
vangagal​
724​
X
12th
impulse​
718​
X
13th
mtf​
714​
X
14th
tiber​
699​
X
15th
evan7788​
694​
X
16th
20solskjaer​
649​
X
17th
f-red​
623​
X
18th
dargonk​
622​
X
19th
dpansheth​
Rock
346​
X
 

pauldyson1uk

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Mercedes says a "wacky" and radical set-up approach implemented in Austria may have hurt its car's race pace and impacted tyre degradation.

Valtteri Bottas and Lewis Hamilton qualified a couple of tenths behind pacesetter Max Verstappen on Saturday, but on race day the Red Bull charger sailed off into the distance to take his fourth win of the 2021 season.

But Verstappen's 35-second margin over Hamilton at the checkered flag was particularly impressive and validated once again Red Bull's edge over Mercedes.

But Andrew Shovlin, the Brackley squad's trackside engineering director, believes that Mercedes' decision to "be a bit brave" and to opt for a radical set-up approach at the Red Bull Ring may have weighed on the race pace of its W12 Black Arrow.

"It is a difficult and quite peculiar circuit and Red Bull are normally strong here," said Shovlin.

"But we were also exploring a fairly wacky direction with the set-up, as a radical approach which I think was maybe a bit better on a single lap.

"The question that remains is whether we’ve hurt our degradation and we need to look at that in the next day or two.

"Lewis, before he came here, was doing a lot of work in the driver-in-loop simulator, and it looked like an interesting direction.

"But an important part of this year for us is adapting well to every track and we do need to be a bit brave and original with set-up direction to do that."
 

Fluctuation0161

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You can't estimate the performance of a car by looking at the times of a driver that can't drive it to its full potential since that only tells you how fast the driver is, not how fast the actual car is.

It's not like Bottas is extracting 100% of the performance of the car while Lewis is so good he can alter the laws of physics and get 105% out of it, it's more like Lewis is probably very close to 100%, just like Max is, while Bottas and Perez are slightly below that, so the best way to compare the actual performance of the cars is by looking at Max' and Lewis' times, although that's far from an exact science as well.
Assuming Max is getting 100%. The car may be capable of even more. Max said as much about his qualifying lap.
 

dinostar77

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Mercedes says a "wacky" and radical set-up approach implemented in Austria may have hurt its car's race pace and impacted tyre degradation.

Valtteri Bottas and Lewis Hamilton qualified a couple of tenths behind pacesetter Max Verstappen on Saturday, but on race day the Red Bull charger sailed off into the distance to take his fourth win of the 2021 season.

But Verstappen's 35-second margin over Hamilton at the checkered flag was particularly impressive and validated once again Red Bull's edge over Mercedes.

But Andrew Shovlin, the Brackley squad's trackside engineering director, believes that Mercedes' decision to "be a bit brave" and to opt for a radical set-up approach at the Red Bull Ring may have weighed on the race pace of its W12 Black Arrow.

"It is a difficult and quite peculiar circuit and Red Bull are normally strong here," said Shovlin.

"But we were also exploring a fairly wacky direction with the set-up, as a radical approach which I think was maybe a bit better on a single lap.

"The question that remains is whether we’ve hurt our degradation and we need to look at that in the next day or two.

"Lewis, before he came here, was doing a lot of work in the driver-in-loop simulator, and it looked like an interesting direction.

"But an important part of this year for us is adapting well to every track and we do need to be a bit brave and original with set-up direction to do that."
Woh, things are desperate at Mercedes if Lewis "i hate simulators" is doing sim work now.

The last quote is fascinating. Pretty much says to me that Mercedes arent gonna do much or any more upgrades to the car but just try via setup to unlock its potential.
 

pauldyson1uk

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Porsche and Audi will reportedly have a seat at the table of an F1 engine manufacturers meeting that is scheduled to take place at the Red Bull Ring next Saturday.

Formula 1's stakeholders and the FIA have yet to finalise the sport's engine plans for its next regulation cycle that is set to begin in 2025.

Grand Prix racing's future power unit isn't expected to be a big departure from its current format, although there are plans to lower the level of sophistication of the units as well as their costs while retaining, or indeed increasing, the PU's hybrid component.

It is also expected that the engine of the future will be fed with fully sustainable fuels, as the overall package aims to satisfy the sport's sustainability and carbon neutral objectives as well as safeguard a semblance of relevancy with the automobile industry's road cars.


According to Motorsport Week, next Saturday's meeting will bring together next year's four F1 manufacturers that will represented by Daimler boss Ola Källenius, Ferrari's John Elkann, Renault CEO Luca di Meo and Red Bull's Dietrich Mateschitz.

Formula One chief executive Stefano Domenicali, motorsport boss Ross Brawn and FIA president Jean Todt will also attend the meeting.

But Porsche CEO Oliver Blume and Audi's Markus Duesman are reportedly also expected to have a seat at the table although its uncertain whether they will take part in the discussions or simply attend the talks as observers, which both companies have done in the past.

Periodically, there have been rumors of Porsche and Audi's involvement in F1, especially when both companies scaled back their racing activities in the wake of the Volkswagen Group's Dieselgate scandal.

However, Porsche and Audi have since announced plans to return with works teams to the World Endurance Championship, while Porsche's partnership with Penske will extend to the IMSA series in the U.S.
 

Zlaatan

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But you can estimate the true speed of the car by saying that it is probably somewhere in between the two drivers.
What I was pointed out was that Hamilton was extracting more performance out of the car and Bottas less. And so, it is reasonable to argue that the true speed of the car is slower than Hamilton and faster than Bottas.
I don't know what you mean by true speed. Or I do, but it's just an average of how fast these two specific drivers are capable of driving the car, not an estimation of how fast the car is (especially in comparison to another car). How fast the Merc is doesn't change just because Bottas isn't able to keep up with Lewis, so all you're really saying is that Lewis can drive the car faster than Bottas.

Lewis and Max are driving closer to their cars maximum potential than their team mates which means their times are the most accurate representations of how fast the cars are. It's not a perfectly accurate representation since in theory either driver could be getting more out of a slower car, but I think it's pretty safe to say that both of them are very close to extracting the max from each car.


Assuming Max is getting 100%. The car may be capable of even more. Max said as much about his qualifying lap.
I think that's more a case of him pointing out that even though he didn't do a perfect lap he still got pole, not that he's not capable of driving the car as fast as it can go.