F1 2021 Season

[Buster15]

Lots of talk here about Horner and of course Max. But we must never ignore the incredible contribution of Adrian Newey.
There was a period a few years ago when he was less involved with the F1 car. And during that time, Red Bull were not competitive. Now he is back working his magic, they have a brilliant chassis as well as brilliant aero package. He deserves much more credit.

 

[BusbyMalone]

It is not a case of loving Lewis Hamilton. But it is very much a case of huge respect for his natural ability and what he has achieved over the years.
And even now, he is extracting every bit of performance out of the car as is possible.
Bottas is many miles behind.
In truth, the Mercedes is probably over 0.5sec or more slower than the Red Bull judging by Bottas times.

Well, it certainly is a case of loving Hamiton for most. It's not necessarily a criticism, it's just a fact. Also, the Mercedes is still the faster car, let's not get crazy here. You're making it sound like he's racing in a ford cortina. Using Bottas as some sort of measurement is also a little disingenuous because he's, quite frankly, a poor racer. He should be getting more out of that car. The fact that Hamilton is getting so much more out of the car than Bottas, is an indictment of how poor Bottas is.

 

[Balljy]

Currently the forecast is for rain and scattered thunderstorms for next Sunday. It feels a bit like the forecast there for today, but hopefully one of them hits at the right time next week to add a bit of excitement.

 

[Buster15]

Well, it certainly is a case of loving Hamiton for most. It's not necessarily a criticism, it's just a fact. Also, the Mercedes is still the faster car, let's not get crazy here. You're making it sound like he's racing in a ford cortina. Using Bottas as some sort of measurement is also a little disingenuous because he's, quite frankly, a poor racer. He should be getting more out of that car. The fact that Hamilton is getting so much more out of the car than Bottas, is an indictment of how poor Bottas is.

Not sure how you have concluded that the Mercedes is still the faster car. It was but isn't now. And I prefer to take Lewis Hamilton assessment.
He says that it is on average somewhere between 0.2/0.4 second ahead.
So, accepting that, which is backed up by actual data, it is generally considered that Hamilton is worth at least a further 0 2/0.3 seconds. And so, even a conservative estimate puts the Mercedes at 0.5 seconds slower when not driven by Hamilton.
Nothing wrong with a Ford Cortina by the way.....except for - rust, starting problems and reliability. I had the MK1, 2, 3 & 4.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Not sure how you have concluded that the Mercedes is still the faster car. It was but isn't now. And I prefer to take Lewis Hamilton assessment.
He says that it is on average somewhere between 0.2/0.4 second ahead.
So, accepting that, which is backed up by actual data, it is generally considered that Hamilton is worth at least a further 0 2/0.3 seconds. And so, even a conservative estimate puts the Mercedes at 0.5 seconds slower when not driven by Hamilton.
Nothing wrong with a Ford Cortina by the way.....except for - rust, starting problems and reliability. I had the MK1, 2, 3 & 4.

I was making a point about the Mercedes engine still being an incredibly powerful engine, and probably still the most powerful (obviously Red Bull have improved in other areas). You were making out as if Hamilton was performing miracles by comparing him to Bottas which, again, is an indictment of how poor Bottas is more than anything. Obviously, claiming that this car is faster than the other car is an oversimplification, to be fair, because it's also highly dependent on the track. There have been examples this season where the Mercedes have had the faster car. The general point I was making earlier is that I disagree with the consensus that this season is already a procession. And I would wager that if it was Hamilton in the number one spot, we wouldn't be seeing too much of that.

And apologies for throwing shade at the Ford Cortina. I'm sure it's a fabulous car!

 

[dinostar77]

Merc's opinion is that RB have brought aero upgrades, and potentially engine improvements from Honda (despite them being homologated for this season, but more difficult to prove). In an interview post race, Wolff was quite clear that they have no planned developments for this years car and their efforts are on 2022 now. So I think we'll be seeing Red Bull leading at the front for the foreseeable, unless driver/team error or retirement.

The one season thats is the longest in f1 history, isn't the one you want all the teams to stop development on the cars so early. But it is what it is.

We have to come:

Austria
British
Hungarian
Belgium
Dutch
Italian
Russian
Japanese
Usa
Mexico
Brasil
Australia
Saudi
Dubai

Most of those tracks, i see RB victories baring weather, reliability, accidents. Its going to become a precession of max victories if Mercedes don't unlock their cars potential.

 

[ZIDANE]

It was only in France last time out that Merc including Toto said Merc probably had the fastest race car (not qualifying) but they messed up on strategy. Either way it has been close except this race, Toto said today on Sky it was the first time in 8 years that they were clearly behind on pace - it seems like RB have added updates that go beyond just having a good car around Monaco and they can have a skinny rear wing because of the downforce. I don’t mind, I’m enjoying Merc not winning and fair play on RB not giving up like Ferrari. I’m confident in the regs and salary cap the future will be a lot tighter between multiple teams.

 

[Zlaatan]

Not sure how you have concluded that the Mercedes is still the faster car. It was but isn't now. And I prefer to take Lewis Hamilton assessment.
He says that it is on average somewhere between 0.2/0.4 second ahead.
So, accepting that, which is backed up by actual data, it is generally considered that Hamilton is worth at least a further 0 2/0.3 seconds. And so, even a conservative estimate puts the Mercedes at 0.5 seconds slower when not driven by Hamilton.
Nothing wrong with a Ford Cortina by the way.....except for - rust, starting problems and reliability. I had the MK1, 2, 3 & 4.

You can't estimate the performance of a car by looking at the times of a driver that can't drive it to its full potential since that only tells you how fast the driver is, not how fast the actual car is.

It's not like Bottas is extracting 100% of the performance of the car while Lewis is so good he can alter the laws of physics and get 105% out of it, it's more like Lewis is probably very close to 100%, just like Max is, while Bottas and Perez are slightly below that, so the best way to compare the actual performance of the cars is by looking at Max' and Lewis' times, although that's far from an exact science as well.

 

[BIGbadBOO4]

Not sure how you have concluded that the Mercedes is still the faster car. It was but isn't now. And I prefer to take Lewis Hamilton assessment.
He says that it is on average somewhere between 0.2/0.4 second ahead.
So, accepting that, which is backed up by actual data, it is generally considered that Hamilton is worth at least a further 0 2/0.3 seconds. And so, even a conservative estimate puts the Mercedes at 0.5 seconds slower when not driven by Hamilton.
Nothing wrong with a Ford Cortina by the way.....except for - rust, starting problems and reliability. I had the MK1, 2, 3 & 4.

Let me get this straight, your saying that the Mercedes is the faster car? Too be honest, if it was not for a tyre blowing up and Lewis winning in races where he should not have won, Red Bull and Verstappan would have won every single race.
Absolutely bonkers to suggest Mercedes have the fastest car this year. Mercedes were slower out of the blocks this year and have admitted they are not spending time upgrading it. I reckon if you offered all F1 drivers to be in red bull or merc nearly all would jump in the red bull.

 

[Tiber]

For all Max's brilliance, one retirement and he loses the lead.

Its a real shame he lost out in Baku

 

[Adam-Utd]

softer tyre compounds next race will hopefully mix things up a bit.

A wet race will be very welcome.

 

[Buster15]

Let me get this straight, your saying that the Mercedes is the faster car? Too be honest, if it was not for a tyre blowing up and Lewis winning in races where he should not have won, Red Bull and Verstappan would have won every single race.
Absolutely bonkers to suggest Mercedes have the fastest car this year. Mercedes were slower out of the blocks this year and have admitted they are not spending time upgrading it. I reckon if you offered all F1 drivers to be in red bull or merc nearly all would jump in the red bull.

Please refer to the previous posts from someone else who I was responding to and who was arguing that the Mercedes was the faster car.
And no. Of course I was not saying that the Mercedes was the faster car. That would be stupid.
See Busby Malone

 

[Buster15]

You can't estimate the performance of a car by looking at the times of a driver that can't drive it to its full potential since that only tells you how fast the driver is, not how fast the actual car is.

It's not like Bottas is extracting 100% of the performance of the car while Lewis is so good he can alter the laws of physics and get 105% out of it, it's more like Lewis is probably very close to 100%, just like Max is, while Bottas and Perez are slightly below that, so the best way to compare the actual performance of the cars is by looking at Max' and Lewis' times, although that's far from an exact science as well.

But you can estimate the true speed of the car by saying that it is probably somewhere in between the two drivers.
What I was pointed out was that Hamilton was extracting more performance out of the car and Bottas less. And so, it is reasonable to argue that the true speed of the car is slower than Hamilton and faster than Bottas.

 

[Dan_F]

For all Max's brilliance, one retirement and he loses the lead.

Its a real shame he lost out in Baku

That’s always the case when there’s two people actually fighting for the title. It feels like Rosberg/Hamilton was the last time that happened, with Hamilton losing the title due to reliability.

It will be disappointing if Mercedes give up on the car and we don’t see what we thought we would after the first couple of races. As soon as everyone starts wanting rain, it’s a sign that the race was boring as hell.

 

[dinostar77]

It will be interesting to see what Mercedes do. Hamilton said yesterday they need an upgrade either rear wing or engine. Totto was saying they weren't gonna try to do any major upgrades for this season. However yesterday was the first time in 8 years that Mercedes got spanked on pace genuinely.

 

[Adam-Utd]

It will be interesting to see what Mercedes do. Hamilton said yesterday they need an upgrade either rear wing or engine. Totto was saying they weren't gonna try to do any major upgrades for this season. However yesterday was the first time in 8 years that Mercedes got spanked on pace genuinely.

I don't really see what they can do apart from spending a lot of time and money to try and claw back the performance.

Red Bull with their high rake design just has a huge natural advantage that Mercedes won't ever be able to match. It seems now they've realised they can still compete on the downforce levels with a tiny wing it's game over.

Only DNF's or bad luck willl stop Verstappen this year IMO.

 

[SilentWitness]

Feels like it's the year of Max. Very mature driving from him so far this season.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

I watched some of the highlight, clearly RB have the fastest car this season , looks like they are the only ones spending on upgrades.
Even the races Lewis has won this season has been by accidents to the RB, not Lewis beating Max.
Maybe Mercedes have already conceded the season ? Concentrating on next season.
I am shocked that the RB have got so far ahead this year, but fair play to them.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

decent read.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/gary-anderson-have-new-f1-rules-hurt-low-rake-mercedes/

 

[Adam-Utd]

I watched some of the highlight, clearly RB have the fastest car this season , looks like they are the only ones spending on upgrades.
Even the races Lewis has won this season has been by accidents to the RB, not Lewis beating Max.
Maybe Mercedes have already conceded the season ? Concentrating on next season.
I am shocked that the RB have got so far ahead this year, but fair play to them.

It's more a combination of honda improving, RB naturally making improvements and the FIA purposely aiming at Mercedes to take away a huge chunk of their rear downforce.

They said on commentary that red bull had a 30 second swing from last Austria to this year. That's a huge improvement which shouldn't be possible without hurting Merc directly.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

It's more a combination of honda improving, RB naturally making improvements and the FIA purposely aiming at Mercedes to take away a huge chunk of their rear downforce.

They said on commentary that red bull had a 30 second swing from last Austria to this year. That's a huge improvement which shouldn't be possible without hurting Merc directly.

a 30 sec swing is massive.
Lets see what the next race holds for Mercedes.

 

[Adam-Utd]

a 30 sec swing is massive.
Lets see what the next race holds for Mercedes.

Think they might be closer, they're using softer tyres for the next race. The 1 area Mercedes have shown to be a little better was on tyre management - if it's a wet race too that could help even out the downforce levels.

 

[BIGbadBOO4]

Please refer to the previous posts from someone else who I was responding to and who was arguing that the Mercedes was the faster car.
And no. Of course I was not saying that the Mercedes was the faster car. That would be stupid.
See Busby Malone

Sorry buddy.

 

[Leg-End]

Think they might be closer, they're using softer tyres for the next race. The 1 area Mercedes have shown to be a little better was on tyre management - if it's a wet race too that could help even out the downforce levels.

Mercedes has worse wear than Red Bull on Sunday so for this track I don't think softer tyres help Mercedes. They mentioned doing something different on setup which may have contributed to that change though, let's see if they get on top of it.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Rank	Driver	Number	Team	Grid	Pits	Fastest Lap	Race Time	Points
1	Max Verstappen	33	Red Bull	1	1	1:08.017	1:22:18.925	25
2	Lewis Hamilton	44	Mercedes	2	2	fastest overall lap 1:07.058	35.743 behind	19
3	Valtteri Bottas	77	Mercedes	5	1	1:08.619	46.907 behind	15
4	Sergio Perez	11	Red Bull	4	2	1:07.894	47.434 behind	12
	Lando Norris	4	McLaren	3	1	1:08.903	1 lap behind	10
6	Carlos Sainz Jnr	55	Ferrari	12	1	1:08.609	1 lap behind	8
7	Charles Leclerc	16	Ferrari	7	2	1:08.738	1 lap behind	6
8	Lance Stroll	18	Aston Martin	9	1	1:09.787	1 lap behind	4
9	Fernando Alonso	14	Alpine	8	1	1:09.749	1 lap behind	2
10	Yuki Tsunoda	22	AlphaTauri	11	1	1:09.650	1 lap behind	1
11	Kimi Raikkonen	7	Alfa Romeo	18	1	1:09.128	1 lap behind	0
12	Sebastian Vettel	5	Aston Martin	14	1	1:09.821	1 lap behind	0
13	Daniel Ricciardo	3	McLaren	13	1	1:09.305	1 lap behind	0
14	Esteban Ocon	31	Alpine	17	1	1:09.576	1 lap behind	0
15	Antonio Giovinazzi	99	Alfa Romeo	15	1	1:09.723	1 lap behind	0
16	Mick Schumacher	47	Haas	19	1	1:10.005	2 laps behind	0
17	Nicholas Latifi	6	Williams	16	2	1:10.104	3 laps behind	0
18	Nikita Mazepin	9	Haas	20	1	1:10.951	3 laps behind	0
not classified	George Russell	63	Williams	10	2	1:10.499	did not finish completed 36 laps	0
not classified	Pierre Gasly	10	AlphaTauri	6	0	not available-	did not finish completed 1 lap	0

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Fantasy Standings after Styrian GP.
senorgregster holding on to the top spot.
Mid table mediocrity for me.

1st	senorgregster​	Hamilton Academical​	841​	X
2nd	emm​	EMM​	810​	X
3rd	chaddyp​	ChaddyP​	807​	X
4th	venkman​	Toyoda​	798​	X
5th	manoucha​	Manoucha09​	791​	X
6th	coleworld​	Coleworrrld​	739​	X
7th	christy87​	Langers on a mission​	732​	X
8th	leg-end7​	The Muscles from Russells​	731​	X
9th	jtw95​	Jack's Rejects​	728​	X
10th	pauldyson1uk​	Billy Jack Racing​	728​	X
11th	vangagal​	Team Skytrain​	724​	X
12th	impulse​	Team 3​	718​	X
13th	mtf​	Tropical Falcon Racing​	714​	X
14th	tiber​	Cars Go Vroooom​	699​	X
15th	evan7788​	altodevil86​	694​	X
16th	20solskjaer​	Sluggish Racing​	649​	X
17th	f-red​	Buzzin' Hornets​	623​	X
18th	dargonk​	Dargon's crew​	622​	X
19th	dpansheth​	Rock​	346​	X

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Mercedes says a "wacky" and radical set-up approach implemented in Austria may have hurt its car's race pace and impacted tyre degradation.

Valtteri Bottas and Lewis Hamilton qualified a couple of tenths behind pacesetter Max Verstappen on Saturday, but on race day the Red Bull charger sailed off into the distance to take his fourth win of the 2021 season.

But Verstappen's 35-second margin over Hamilton at the checkered flag was particularly impressive and validated once again Red Bull's edge over Mercedes.

But Andrew Shovlin, the Brackley squad's trackside engineering director, believes that Mercedes' decision to "be a bit brave" and to opt for a radical set-up approach at the Red Bull Ring may have weighed on the race pace of its W12 Black Arrow.

"It is a difficult and quite peculiar circuit and Red Bull are normally strong here," said Shovlin.

"But we were also exploring a fairly wacky direction with the set-up, as a radical approach which I think was maybe a bit better on a single lap.

"The question that remains is whether we’ve hurt our degradation and we need to look at that in the next day or two.

"Lewis, before he came here, was doing a lot of work in the driver-in-loop simulator, and it looked like an interesting direction.

"But an important part of this year for us is adapting well to every track and we do need to be a bit brave and original with set-up direction to do that."

 

[Fluctuation0161]

You can't estimate the performance of a car by looking at the times of a driver that can't drive it to its full potential since that only tells you how fast the driver is, not how fast the actual car is.

It's not like Bottas is extracting 100% of the performance of the car while Lewis is so good he can alter the laws of physics and get 105% out of it, it's more like Lewis is probably very close to 100%, just like Max is, while Bottas and Perez are slightly below that, so the best way to compare the actual performance of the cars is by looking at Max' and Lewis' times, although that's far from an exact science as well.

Assuming Max is getting 100%. The car may be capable of even more. Max said as much about his qualifying lap.

 

[dinostar77]

Mercedes says a "wacky" and radical set-up approach implemented in Austria may have hurt its car's race pace and impacted tyre degradation.

Valtteri Bottas and Lewis Hamilton qualified a couple of tenths behind pacesetter Max Verstappen on Saturday, but on race day the Red Bull charger sailed off into the distance to take his fourth win of the 2021 season.

But Verstappen's 35-second margin over Hamilton at the checkered flag was particularly impressive and validated once again Red Bull's edge over Mercedes.

But Andrew Shovlin, the Brackley squad's trackside engineering director, believes that Mercedes' decision to "be a bit brave" and to opt for a radical set-up approach at the Red Bull Ring may have weighed on the race pace of its W12 Black Arrow.

"It is a difficult and quite peculiar circuit and Red Bull are normally strong here," said Shovlin.

"But we were also exploring a fairly wacky direction with the set-up, as a radical approach which I think was maybe a bit better on a single lap.

"The question that remains is whether we’ve hurt our degradation and we need to look at that in the next day or two.

"Lewis, before he came here, was doing a lot of work in the driver-in-loop simulator, and it looked like an interesting direction.

"But an important part of this year for us is adapting well to every track and we do need to be a bit brave and original with set-up direction to do that."

Woh, things are desperate at Mercedes if Lewis "i hate simulators" is doing sim work now.

The last quote is fascinating. Pretty much says to me that Mercedes arent gonna do much or any more upgrades to the car but just try via setup to unlock its potential.

 

[dinostar77]

decent read.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/gary-anderson-have-new-f1-rules-hurt-low-rake-mercedes/

Thanks bookmarked for a loo read.

 

[dinostar77]

Totto confirms Mercedes have stopped developing this years car.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/66712/wolff-reveals-mercedes-has-stopped-developing-for-2021/

Ross Brawn expects all teams to stop development on this years car when we get to the summer break in 3 races time. Basically if Mercedes cant somehow comeback at RB over next few races its all over for the season.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Personally I think Mercedes have written off this season, they will settle for second best, in preparation for 2022

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Looks like RB and MV have this season in the bag.

Hopefully Ferrari would have cleaned up their act and be more competitive next season.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Porsche and Audi will reportedly have a seat at the table of an F1 engine manufacturers meeting that is scheduled to take place at the Red Bull Ring next Saturday.

Formula 1's stakeholders and the FIA have yet to finalise the sport's engine plans for its next regulation cycle that is set to begin in 2025.

Grand Prix racing's future power unit isn't expected to be a big departure from its current format, although there are plans to lower the level of sophistication of the units as well as their costs while retaining, or indeed increasing, the PU's hybrid component.

It is also expected that the engine of the future will be fed with fully sustainable fuels, as the overall package aims to satisfy the sport's sustainability and carbon neutral objectives as well as safeguard a semblance of relevancy with the automobile industry's road cars.


According to Motorsport Week, next Saturday's meeting will bring together next year's four F1 manufacturers that will represented by Daimler boss Ola Källenius, Ferrari's John Elkann, Renault CEO Luca di Meo and Red Bull's Dietrich Mateschitz.

Formula One chief executive Stefano Domenicali, motorsport boss Ross Brawn and FIA president Jean Todt will also attend the meeting.

But Porsche CEO Oliver Blume and Audi's Markus Duesman are reportedly also expected to have a seat at the table although its uncertain whether they will take part in the discussions or simply attend the talks as observers, which both companies have done in the past.

Periodically, there have been rumors of Porsche and Audi's involvement in F1, especially when both companies scaled back their racing activities in the wake of the Volkswagen Group's Dieselgate scandal.

However, Porsche and Audi have since announced plans to return with works teams to the World Endurance Championship, while Porsche's partnership with Penske will extend to the IMSA series in the U.S.

 

[Zlaatan]

But you can estimate the true speed of the car by saying that it is probably somewhere in between the two drivers.
What I was pointed out was that Hamilton was extracting more performance out of the car and Bottas less. And so, it is reasonable to argue that the true speed of the car is slower than Hamilton and faster than Bottas.

I don't know what you mean by true speed. Or I do, but it's just an average of how fast these two specific drivers are capable of driving the car, not an estimation of how fast the car is (especially in comparison to another car). How fast the Merc is doesn't change just because Bottas isn't able to keep up with Lewis, so all you're really saying is that Lewis can drive the car faster than Bottas.

Lewis and Max are driving closer to their cars maximum potential than their team mates which means their times are the most accurate representations of how fast the cars are. It's not a perfectly accurate representation since in theory either driver could be getting more out of a slower car, but I think it's pretty safe to say that both of them are very close to extracting the max from each car.

Assuming Max is getting 100%. The car may be capable of even more. Max said as much about his qualifying lap.

I think that's more a case of him pointing out that even though he didn't do a perfect lap he still got pole, not that he's not capable of driving the car as fast as it can go.

 

[Buster15]

I don't know what you mean by true speed. Or I do, but it's just an average of how fast these two specific drivers are capable of driving the car, not an estimation of how fast the car is (especially in comparison to another car). How fast the Merc is doesn't change just because Bottas isn't able to keep up with Lewis, so all you're really saying is that Lewis can drive the car faster than Bottas.

Lewis and Max are driving closer to their cars maximum potential than their team mates which means their times are the most accurate representations of how fast the cars are. It's not a perfectly accurate representation since in theory either driver could be getting more out of a slower car, but I think it's pretty safe to say that both of them are very close to extracting the max from each car.




I think that's more a case of him pointing out that even though he didn't do a perfect lap he still got pole, not that he's not capable of driving the car as fast as it can go.

But I am talking about the Mercedes team and the Red Bull team's ability to produce the fastest car for both their drivers.
Anyway, it is academic.

 

[GeorgieBoy]

So will RB's ongoing developments this year hurt their car next season once the big changes kick in?
Are they seeing this as an 'all or nothing' type of year?

 

[pauldyson1uk]

So will RB's ongoing developments this year hurt their car next season once the big changes kick in?
Are they seeing this as an 'all or nothing' type of year?

Thats a good question, it does look like RB have thrown everything at this season, but I think next season RB and Merc will still be the ones fighting it out, but with a few other teams close on their hels.

 

[Zlaatan]

But I am talking about the Mercedes team and the Red Bull team's ability to produce the fastest car for both their drivers.
Anyway, it is academic.

But Bottas isn’t slower because of Merc’s (in)ability to build the fastest car possible for both drivers, he’s slower simply because he’s a worse driver and is therefore not a good representation of the speed the car is capable of.

The fact that Russel showed he could drive the Merc faster than Bottas even though they didn’t build the car for him is further proof of that.

 

[dinostar77]

Some may enjoy. Landos first go at f1 2021 game with his commentary.