Fellaini

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apotheosis said:
how can you work on a lack of belief? that is all it can be. there is no doubting our talent, so it becomes simply a question of character, and the performances in adversity suggest we don't have anywhere near enough of it.
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I don't think it's to do with belief. The team is filled with winners. I think it has more to do with our bottom level as a unit. There are times (eg. Everton, Bilbao and others) when our fluidity and penetration goes completely out the door. And then when we concede we can't suddenly regain it and hence start doing desperate things such as keep giving it wide and knocking crosses in to strikers that aren't really known for heading.

City do this better than us IMO. Even on their bad days their fluidity and control over the game doesn't get too bad. That's why when they concede it's not game where they are struggling to pass the ball around fluidly. It's just a game where they've conceded a goal and haven't finished chances or put in the final ball.
 
This is such a weird thread. You have people way overrating him almost entirely on the basis of one game where he played as a forward saying he can be our Yaya Toure in midfield despite his actual football skills being nothing like him.

Then you have other people saying he's rubbish, we cant have a player like that in the team and he cant control or pass the ball to a competant level.

Obviously the truth is somewhere in the middle. I do think he's a good player in central midfield but rest assured when he plays there he doesnt have the same impact he had last night and we would rarely use him in that role (possibly 90 mins needing a goal). And when I look at the CMs that play next to him in the international side, is he really more useful FOR us than his teammates Witsel and Dembele ?

Even if he's more useful AGAINST us. Witsel is more mobile, would be a good way to counter his effect last night with better competing in the air and putting in tackles. Dembele also makes a lot of tackles and could physically compete with Fellaini and in a team that has more of the ball he's far more useful. A better passer, one of the very top dribblers in the league as well and when we go against say Barcelona chucking the ball up to a target man Fellaini might work decently (although Busquets will deal better with it than we did and they will get the 2nd balls far more often too) but I think a top team would look at Dembele, as a phsyical player who can also bypass their midfield at times with his ability to run the ball past them even if they are the best closing down side in the world, I think he'd be a better fit at a top side despite costing less. And he would be far closer to "doing a Yaya Toure" than Fellaini.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
City do this better than us IMO. Even on their bad days their fluidity and control over the game doesn't get too bad. That's why when they concede it's not game where they are struggling to pass the ball around fluidly. It's just a game where they've conceded a goal and haven't finished chances or put in the final ball.
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I'd say a lot of that has to do with having midfield players (well one more than the rest anyway) who have other options, skill-wise, when the passing game isn't working or a defense is challenging you to break it down.

Defenses have to respect Yaya's ability to drive at them with the ball, so they can't sit back and make him beat them with his passes. In effect it opens up more passing lanes for them than Scholes, Carrick or Cleverley do for us, sitting back, which ends with spraying the pass wide.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
I don't think it's to do with belief. The team is filled with winners. I think it has more to do with our bottom level as a unit. There are times (eg. Everton, Bilbao and others) when our fluidity and penetration goes completely out the door. And then when we concede we can't suddenly regain it and hence start doing desperate things such as keep giving it wide and knocking crosses in to strikers that aren't really known for heading.

City do this better than us IMO. Even on their bad days their fluidity and control over the game doesn't get too bad. That's why when they concede it's not game where they are struggling to pass the ball around fluidly. It's just a game where they've conceded a goal and haven't finished chances or put in the final ball.
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Surprising view really. for me it's all about players having the belief to take something even if they don't deserve anything. There is usually a player or 2 you can depend on to take responsibility for lifting the spirits and urging the team on when it matters most.

The vast majority of the defeats we have suffered have ended without any real conviction that we were ever going to get anything. Last night was a typical example. We never looked like creating a chance in the final 10 mins, which for so long used to be our time to make an impact, irrespective of what had gone before.

It was pass the ball predictably out wide before putting in a cross with no real conviction. i think the point you make about losing fliudity and momentum is typical of a side that doesn't have the belief to regain that fluidity under pressure. That's why City do it and we don't. They have more players who are taking responsibility for making something happen. Kompany, Silva, Aguero, Toure last season and now Tevez, all do this with regularity.

Tevez provided a boost for City in the last few games last season, and even on the last day when it looked lost for them they managed to find something that made all the difference. No surprise that city's worst form of the season came after losing both Kompany and Toure, and Silva and Aguero's form dropped off. All their players who had performed all season either missing or losing form, seriously affected their ability to find something extra when the chips were down.

Once we gave them hope with poor performances against Wigan then at home to Everton. The likes of toure stood up and took responsibility with a run of outstanding performances on the trot that inspired his team to wins against Wolves, Newcastle and then us.

We fell away because we didn't have anyone who stepped up to the plate in a similar fashion. That's belief and character for me Amolbhatia. It's the difference between finishing on top or not. Had we got something against City after going a goal down it would be us who were champions and not them. But we failed to fashion a single shot on target even when we knew failure to do so could easily cost us the title. When it mattered most their players had the belief to step up and ensure they would win, and ours didn't.
 
apotheosis said:
The vast majority of the defeats we have suffered have ended without any real conviction that we were ever going to get anything. Last night was a typical example. We never looked like creating a chance in the final 10 mins, which for so long used to be our time to make an impact, irrespective of what had gone before.
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We had two new players as part of that attack. This is a group trying to figure out how to work together, handicapped by filling holes at the back, which weakens the rest of the team.

I'm not at all worried about the offense. They will come together. The weapons we have will rival the Tevez/Ronaldo/Rooney years.
 
apotheosis said:
Surprising view really. for me it's all about players having the belief to take something even if they don't deserve anything. There is usually a player or 2 you can depend on to take responsibility for lifting the spirits and urging the team on when it matters most.

The vast majority of the defeats we have suffered have ended without any real conviction that we were ever going to get anything. Last night was a typical example. We never looked like creating a chance in the final 10 mins, which for so long used to be our time to make an impact, irrespective of what had gone before.

It was pass the ball predictably out wide before putting in a cross with no real conviction. i think the point you make about losing fliudity and momentum is typical of a side that doesn't have the belief to regain that fluidity under pressure. That's why City do it and we don't. They have more players who are taking responsibility for making something happen. Kompany, Silva, Aguero, Toure last season and now Tevez, all do this with regularity.

Tevez provided a boost for City in the last few games last season, and even on the last day when it looked lost for them they managed to find something that made all the difference. No surprise that city's worst form of the season came after losing both Kompany and Toure, and Silva and Aguero's form dropped off. All their players who had performed all season either missing or losing form, seriously affected their ability to find something extra when the chips were down.

Once we gave them hope with poor performances against Wigan then at home to Everton. The likes of toure stood up and took responsibility with a run of outstanding performances on the trot that inspired his team to wins against Wolves, Newcastle and then us.

We fell away because we didn't have anyone who stepped up to the plate in a similar fashion. That's belief and character for me Amolbhatia. It's the difference between finishing on top or not. Had we got something against City after going a goal down it would be us who were champions and not them. But we failed to fashion a single shot on target even when we knew failure to do so could easily cost us the title. When it mattered most their players had the belief to step up and ensure they would win, and ours didn't.
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I think it's systemic rather than a case of belief. I don't think Toure, Silva, Aguero and Tevez are mentally stronger than Nani, Rooney, Vidic and Carrick. But I think as a unit City over the given period have hit a much better consistency of general play. Their general passing fluidity doesn't fall to pieces like ours does at times. And the reason I feel it's not to do with bottle is because we often don't have that fluidity but scrape away wins. So IMO it's no exclusive to times when we are a goal down.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
We had two new players as part of that attack. This is a group trying to figure out how to work together, handicapped by filling holes at the back, which weakens the rest of the team.

I'm not at all worried about the offense. They will come together. The weapons we have will rival the Tevez/Ronaldo/Rooney years.
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Fair enough regarding last night, but the point stands for last season.

I actually agree that we could have potentially the best group of attacking talent ever seen at the club. But we also need a leader to enable us to get something when the chips are down. Any group needs leadership and if you have a player than reaffirms confidence when doubts creep in, then you don't go down without a fight.

It's what we have lost imo, and the amount of defeats, the manner of them and the lack of points gained from losing positions can only really cement that view.
 
apotheosis said:
Fair enough regarding last night, but the point stands for last season.

I actually agree that we could have potentially the best group of attacking talent ever seen at the club. But we also need a leader to enable us to get something when the chips are down. Any group needs leadership and if you have a player than reaffirms confidence when doubts creep in, then you don't go down without a fight.

It's what we have lost imo, and the amount of defeats, the manner of them and the lack of points gained from losing positions can only really cement that view.
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I think we would have run away with the league if Vidic had been healthy all season. The man is a rock. He'll get back to form and the defense will gel. But that's the main problem. Injuries at the back. It was last season. Already starting this season. IMO, it's all about Vidic.
 
How can any sane person deal with the muppets' delusions? 'Rafael is the best RB in the league', Anderson is a major talent about to blossom and now your current attack (which looked as threatening as a wet fart last night) is better than when you fielded Best and Ronaldo. Keep taking the pills.
 
peterstorey said:
How can any sane person deal with the muppets' delusions? 'Rafael is the best RB in the league', Anderson is a major talent about to blossom and now your current attack (which looked as threatening as a wet fart last night) is better than when you fielded Best and Ronaldo. Keep taking the pills.
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Should probably read the bit in apotheosis' post where he says 'potentially'...;)
 
peterstorey said:
You don't have a Best or even a Ronaldo right now.
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That's very true, but then again it's not always a benefit to be dependent on one player as we were so often on ronaldo. When they are out, the team tends to struggle to know how to cope without them.

I think if you have a few players all capable of producing the goods when needed then it can be even more beneficial. I think that's the difference between Utd and City right now.

They have a lot of players who are amongst the best about in their respective positions, and as a team i think you take a lot of confidence from that. We saw last season that as soon as we rested Scholes against Wigan, we had become so reliant on him to set the tempo of our play we looked lost without him.

hopefully the signings we have made will give the team a boost in that regard, with the injuries we keep suffering we will probably need it.
 
peterstorey said:
How can any sane person deal with the muppets' delusions? 'Rafael is the best RB in the league', Anderson is a major talent about to blossom and now your current attack (which looked as threatening as a wet fart last night) is better than when you fielded Best and Ronaldo. Keep taking the pills.
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You're absolutely right Pete. This place would be a right mess if we didn't have you to lean on, with your calm demeanour and spot on analysis of everything football.

Unfortunately, we can't all reach the heights you have.

I'd like to specifically point out the poise and dignity you've displayed during what has had to be a hard time for Arsenal supporters, such as yourself. Lesser men would have resorted to classless displays, or possibly even wilted, in light of us buying your recent captain.

Not you Petey. You Sir are an oak.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
I think we would have run away with the league if Vidic had been healthy all season. The man is a rock. He'll get back to form and the defense will gel. But that's the main problem. Injuries at the back. It was last season. Already starting this season. IMO, it's all about Vidic.
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That cannot even be argued. When you lose a league on goal difference and your Captain and best defender has been out for so long, it is blatantly obvious he would have been worth additional points along the way.

Although i have to point out that despite him not being there, we still managed to gain an 8 point advantage over city. The difference was that during those last few games, starting at Wigan we couldn't keep it going tbf. We couldn't get anything against Wigan after going behind, and then threw it away at home to Everton. The City game summed up my point we just lacked the belief after the Everton game, and City stepped up a level and took it away.
 
I'm willing to bet that even if the current attackers would all work well together, they wouldn't represent United's best ever attacking line.
 
kouroux said:
I'm willing to bet that even if the current attackers would all work well together, they wouldn't represent United's best ever attacking line.
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I think they have all the potential to be just that, but time will tell. But then again you also have to look in the middle of the park, if your midfield is getting destroyed you're obviously not going to get as many chances as with a figure like Keane and a younger Scholes for instance.
 
To be fair, it's pretty silly to argue that our attack might be better without a player like Best or Ronaldo on the basis of it being more rounded. It's just deluded. Put Ronaldo with this current crop and it exponentially increases the potential, not the other way around.

That said, this group of attacking players is clearly extremely talented and could be scary if everything works out. Pete is being his usual grumpy self, and even though he's hilariously wrong the majority of the time, he's actually right about the Ronnie/Best comparison.
 
Nanderson said:
To be fair, it's pretty silly to argue that our attack might be better without a player like Best or Ronaldo on the basis of it being more rounded. It's just deluded. Put Ronaldo with this current crop and it exponentially increases the potential, not the other way around.
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If you have more players of quality not relying on one as much, then it's far from silly. Not being your opinion, does not make it silly. It actually just makes it your opinion.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
If you have more players of quality not relying on one as much, then it's far from silly. Not being your opinion, does not make it silly. It actually just makes it your opinion.
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Nah, it's silly. Unless you think adding Ronaldo would somehow make our attack worse. It's not rocket science, no need to make it so. Pete was right about this issue, but people instantly jumped on him because he's usually so wrong and obviously an Arse fan.
 
Nanderson said:
Nah, it's silly. Unless you think adding Ronaldo would somehow make our attack worse. It's not rocket science, no need to make it so. Pete was right about this issue, but people instantly jumped on him because he's usually so wrong and obviously an Arse fan.
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That's not really how it works though. Let's say our attack of Best, Charlton, Law and Herd is our greatest ever attack, does the fact that Ronaldo would improve it then disqualify it from being our greatest attack? Or reverse that round and say that the attack of Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez and Giggs was our greatest ever attack, does the fact that Law would improve it disqualify it? Rocket science indeed.
 
Nanderson said:
Nah, it's silly. Unless you think adding Ronaldo would somehow make our attack worse. It's not rocket science, no need to make it so. Pete was right about this issue, but people instantly jumped on him because he's usually so wrong and obviously an Arse fan.
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You're making a different argument. Try figuring out why. It's not hard.
 
Brwned said:
That's not really how it works though. Let's say our attack of Best, Charlton, Law and Herd is our greatest ever attack, does the fact that Ronaldo would improve it then disqualify it from being our greatest attack? Or reverse that round and say that the attack of Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez and Giggs was our greatest ever attack, does the fact that Law would improve it disqualify it? Rocket science indeed.
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I wasn't disagreeing with that though. I was disagreeing with the reasoning behind saying why this attack can be better (ie. more rounded). This attack could be better than past ones if everything falls into place, but it won't have been because it's better rounded. If that was the case then substituting Ronaldo/Best in for any of our current attackers would downgrade it, which is just highly unlikely. You might say I'm making a seperate argument, but I'm not really, as AlwaysRedwood cited the above reason, which I'm disputing.

So in short, this could be our best attacking unit (and that's very optimistic), but it's not because of a lack of Ronaldo/Best, as suggested above. It's simply because this is a fantastic group of players. Substituting Ronnie in would upgrade the potential.


You're making a different argument. Try figuring out why. It's not hard.
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I'm not, as pointed out. You seem to be confused. I'm not disputing that this theoretically could turn out to be our best attacking unit ever, I'm saying that it's not for the reason you outlined (which is silly).
 
Nanderson said:
I wasn't disagreeing with that though. I was disagreeing with the reasoning behind saying why this attack can be better (ie. more rounded). This attack could be better than past ones if everything falls into place, but it won't have been because it's better rounded. If that was the case then substituting Ronaldo/Best in for any of our current attackers would downgrade it, which is just highly unlikely. You might say I'm making a seperate argument, but I'm not really, as AlwaysRedwood cited the above reason, which I'm disputing.

So in short, this could be our best attacking unit (and that's very optimistic), but it's not because of a lack of Ronaldo/Best, as suggested above. It's simply because this is a fantastic group of players. Substituting Ronnie in would upgrade the potential.

I'm not, as pointed out. You seem to be confused. I'm not disputing that this theoretically could turn out to be our best attacking unit ever, I'm saying that it's not for the reason you outlined (which is silly).
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Yeah, you don't comprehend the point made and I'm officially bored with you not understanding it.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
Yeah, you don't comprehend the point made and I'm officially bored with you not understanding it.
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I clearly do, and as you seem unable to respond in an intelligible manner, we should probably leave it at that. I'll point it out for you again before I stop responding, as you seem quite upset that your illogical reasoning has been pointed out.


Peterstorey said:
You don't have a Best or even a Ronaldo right now.
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You responded:
Right. It will be a more well rounded, balanced attack.

Thanks for agreeing with us!
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Not hard to understand. You clearly think our current attack benefits from not having Ronaldo or Best. I'm saying it's a fairly stupid response, which anyone in their right mind would agree with. Well done.

Now run along and refrain from posting if you're not even going to back-up your posts with reasoned thought even once.
 
I interpreted that point differently. I read it as "you don't have a gamechanger/unlocker", which in fairness we don't, not of Best's or Ronaldo's calibre. In the average game it doesn't matter, but in tight games it can make all the difference.

I'm not saying Rooney, RvP, Nani, Valencia, etc are not great players, but sometime you need the one that tips over the balance, the one whose creativity and flair is irrepressible and no amount of organised defending is going to work.

I hope Kagawa turns out to be that player because the others aren't, or don't do it consistently enough.
 
He used all of his ability on the first two games of the season.
 
Yeah, good players can never miss easy chances :rolleyes:.
 
::sonny:: said:
He is unable to stop a ball, too slow to play in a midfield of 2, better as a support striker with off the ball movement.
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And he's nowhere near good enough to play a support striker for a big club.
 
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