General Election 2017 | Cabinet reshuffle: Hunt re-appointed Health Secretary for record third time

How do you intend to vote in the 2017 General Election if eligible?

  • Conservatives

    Votes: 80 14.5%
  • Labour

    Votes: 322 58.4%
  • Lib Dems

    Votes: 57 10.3%
  • Green

    Votes: 20 3.6%
  • SNP

    Votes: 13 2.4%
  • UKIP

    Votes: 29 5.3%
  • Independent

    Votes: 3 0.5%
  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • Sinn Fein

    Votes: 11 2.0%
  • Other (UUP, DUP, BNP, and anyone else I have forgotten)

    Votes: 14 2.5%

  • Total voters
    551
  • Poll closed .

Pogue Mahone

The caf's Camus.
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"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
Of course the story of right wing politics is actually people blaming those poorer than them
Fixed that for you.

And the story of left wing politics involves blaming people richer than them.

My take on it all is that the rich don't need anyone else to fight their battles and the poor often do. Hence my own politics are still left of centre on almost any issue you could mention. I just happen to disagree with the idea that increasing the taxation of individuals any much higher than we are right now is a good idea. And I certainly don't agree with the demonisation of people who have high paid jobs that seems to be a common tactic amongst many of the more extreme left.
 

Randall Flagg

Worst of the best
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Gorey
Yeah, his comments on 'lazy whinging assholes' were definitely aimed at those involved in tax law.
Well I made similar comments as well and I have before

Again it is very easy to feel frustration at people you deem not to be pulling their weight
 

Will Absolute

New Member
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Oct 23, 2009
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Southern Ireland
I'm late to the party, and I don't know if it's already been said, but the Lib Dems must be delighted. A vote about Brexit, with Labour following Jeremy Corbyn into the pro-Brexit lobby, leaves a lot of Remain voters with nowhere to go. A lifebelt thrown to a drowning man.
 

Minimalist

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Messages
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@sammsky1 I think you are putting up the wrong aspect of your argument as the aim for the criticism you are getting here. Nobody is having a go at you for not voting Labour, or even for considering voting Tory - They are criticising you for some very poorly thought out and over simplified criticisms you have made about people in society who are less fortunate than you. Several posters have openly said they'll be voting Tory out of self interest and nobody has said a word to them. The anger you have generated comes from a viewpoint which comes across as nasty and arrogant.

You have on multiple occasions said you educated yourself. You did not - your parents educated you when they paid for you and your siblings to attend a private school and receive a leg up that the vast majority of society do not receive. You've said it's irrelevant what your parents did for a living, or their circumstances when they moved to the UK but it isn't - It both proves the privileges you were afforded while growing up and (depending on the industry they worked in) could potentially be used to help you understand why helping others helps yourself.

You have also explicitly said you work extremely hard and everybody could enjoy the same wealth you do if they worked as hard. I'm sorry mate but you have 20,000 posts on a Man Utd forum and have been able to spend several hours distracting yourself with political and economical arguments on a Tuesday afternoon - you don't work harder than the nurse who earns less than a third of your salary or as mentioned earlier, the hospital porter who earns half as much again.

All of that aside, I have no doubts you work very hard and earn the lifestyle you enjoy. It's just that the opportunities and luck which has accompanied your hard work has allowed you reach a level which many never will.

There are a million reasons for being poor; from mental illness and depression to poor luck in a business venture. There's work place discrimination or even major life events like unplanned single parent pregnancies or the death of a parent at a young or critical age.

You've said that none of that is your concern but it is. We all benefit from a society which helps those who need helping. The idea that the best and brightest of us will magically be confined to those who have the wealthiest parents or the luckiest circumstances is silly and if you have a business which employs staff, you want a bigger, better range of candidates to recruit from. If you sell commodities to the public, you want more people with more disposable income to spend on those products. If you value living in safety and security, you want less people driven to crime out of despair.
Ouch.
 

Fully Fledged

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Midlands UK
Agree with everything except the last sentence.
I get that. It's my personal preference.

I just don't like wasting a vote. I mean the MP by the way not the party in general. I'm just saying that if I lived in an area that the only real opposition to the Tories was Lib Dem then I would vote Lib Dem. If a Labor candidate was only going to get 5-10% of the vote then it's a waste of time voting for them. For me personally.

I know that seeing as how some people vote for small candidates that this is not a view shared by everybody.
 

Pogue Mahone

The caf's Camus.
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"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
Well I made similar comments as well and I have before

Again it is very easy to feel frustration at people you deem not to be pulling their weight
The thing you have to remember about anyone who is 100% reliant on handouts from the state is that they will be the first and most dramatic beneficiary if and when they do get a job. So I'm happy to assume that the vast majority of people who are out of work aren't taking benefits because they prefer life that way.

Obviously, there will be some people who are so unbelievably lazy that they're happy to just about get by, financially, rather than try to better themselves, but they're in the minority. A tiny minority at that. And it's impossible for a society to have policies that works works for absolutely everyone. So if it works for the majority then that's the best we can hope for.
 

Nogbadthebad

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Fixed that for you.

And the story of left wing politics involves blaming people richer than them.

My take on it all is that the rich don't need anyone else to fight their battles and the poor often do. Hence my own politics are still left of centre on almost any issue you could mention. I just happen to disagree with the idea that increasing the taxation of individuals any much higher than we are right now is a good idea. And I certainly don't agree with the demonisation of people who have high paid jobs that seems to be a common tactic amongst many of the more extreme left.
I'm not sure corbyn is suggesting all this though. He's talking of a 50% rate at most, the rest is growing the economy and reducing overheads.

I like the idea of a national investment bank, all QE did really was to make the balance sheets of the banks look better. Direct investment in local economies is a far more effective approach for a country like ours where economic growth is so region specific.

Likewise, renationalising without cost as rail franchises come up, and removing a lot of the added expense of the internal market for the NHS are good policies, and largely cost neutral it seems.

I would likely pay more tax, but I am not sure its as drastic a change as some would have us believe. Nothing I have seen is really anything more than center left ideas, and certainly not the extremist approach the media like to portray.
 

Untied

Full Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
4,480
Fixed that for you.

And the story of left wing politics involves blaming people richer than them.

My take on it all is that the rich don't need anyone else to fight their battles and the poor often do. Hence my own politics are still left of centre on almost any issue you could mention. I just happen to disagree with the idea that increasing the taxation of individuals any much higher than we are right now is a good idea. And I certainly don't agree with the demonisation of people who have high paid jobs that seems to be a common tactic amongst many of the more extreme left.
The demonisation is more as individual representations of a broken system. We reward people as if we live in a meritocracy but we do not.
 

Pogue Mahone

The caf's Camus.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
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"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
I'm not sure corbyn is suggesting all this though. He's talking of a 50% rate at most, the rest is growing the economy and reducing overheads.

I like the idea of a national investment bank, all QE did really was to make the balance sheets of the banks look better. Direct investment in local economies is a far more effective approach for a country like ours where economic growth is so region specific.

Likewise, renationalising without cost as rail franchises come up, and removing a lot of the added expense of the internal market for the NHS are good policies, and largely cost neutral it seems.

I would likely pay more tax, but I am not sure its as drastic a change as some would have us believe. Nothing I have seen is really anything more than center left ideas, and certainly not the extremist approach the media like to portray.
I actually think a lot of Corbyn's policies are sensible enough. I definitely prefer them to the Tory alternatives. Just a shame he hasn't got the wit or charisma to get them across the line.
 

altodevil

Odds winner of 'Odds or Evens 2023/2024'
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
17,498
I get that. It's my personal preference.

I just don't like wasting a vote. I mean the MP by the way not the party in general. I'm just saying that if I lived in an area that the only real opposition to the Tories was Lib Dem then I would vote Lib Dem. If a Labor candidate was only going to get 5-10% of the vote then it's a waste of time voting for them. For me personally.

I know that seeing as how some people vote for small candidates that this is not a view shared by everybody.
Yeah I can agree with that. I meant more people who don't vote then complain when the current government does not work for them.

I feel if the death of Labour can lead to a new part which backs electoral reform it's worth it. No referendum this time, just feckin change it.
 

Dobba

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"You and your paper can feck off."
I actually think a lot of Corbyn's policies are sensible enough. I definitely prefer them to the Tory alternatives. Just a shame he hasn't got the wit or charisma to get them across the line.
And if this was the view of literally anybody that the party would let stand for leadership, I'd have no issue with Corbyn going before the sun goes down. In fact, I think he'd probably do it.
 

Nogbadthebad

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I actually think a lot of Corbyn's policies are sensible enough. I definitely prefer them to the Tory alternatives. Just a shame he hasn't got the wit or charisma to get them across the line.
I agree on the charisma front, but then again he is up against may and farron, and the reality is they are no better in that regard. Media coverage is what makes the real difference sadly. The trouble is for labour, any replacement to corbyn who follows those same policies would get the exact same treatment I think.
 

AshfordLad

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Jun 27, 2014
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Thats unfortunate but seriously why is that my problem? Labour voters like me pay top level tax as it is to compensate for that. Why should we pay even more so Corbyn can go on yet another labour opening spree?
Fair play for sticking up for you point of view and I have a some sympathy for it as well.

However the above is totally wrong not just from the social angle to which other posters have pointed to but also from an economic standpoint. If you dont give the underprivileged kids at least a fighting chance then they will be a burden on the state for ever or worse still one of them might stab someone like you during a mugging/riot/whatever.
 

Minimalist

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I actually think a lot of Corbyn's policies are sensible enough. I definitely prefer them to the Tory alternatives. Just a shame he hasn't got the wit or charisma to get them across the line.
Pretty much agree. Some of his views are a tad wacky but on the whole, his policies are common sense. As you say, it's him as leader of the country that is just not going to happen.
 

unchanged_lineup

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Jesus christ

He just comes across as someone who is very, very frustrated at having to pay an excessive amount of tax. There is nothing wrong with that and completely understandable.

I was able to relate to exactly what he was commenting on. It really should not mean you need to disregard any other views he has had previously.
Do you know which thread I meant?
 

MoskvaRed

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May's decision is an implied admission that Brexit is going to be painful and therefore she wants a "mandate" that can be presented as stronger than the very small margin Leave achieved last year. Otherwise, there is no way she would jeopardise 3 years ahead of schedule the future of the Conservatives' biggest electoral asset - the leader of HM's Loyal Opposition.
 

rcoobc

Not as crap as eferyone thinks
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Raising the personal allowance is a bad policy.

(Helps rich people more than very poor - if you already earn less than personal allowance raise does nothing for you but it does give even the highest rate tax payers an extra 1k tax free

I've no idea how affordable this is, but really, if you want to reduce tax for the poorest you should add a sub 20k tax bracket that is say 15%
Nooe, if you earn more than £125k you dont get a personal allowance.

What you are describing is basically raising the personal allowance!
 

Nogbadthebad

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An independent right winger could have a real go at osborne, he's not popular with his part time approach. I wonder if any will try.

They really should.
 

Zarlak

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Truth like rain don't give a feck who it falls on.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the antisemitic/commie sympathiser is openly pro Brexit. A vote to Lib dem will serve me well because

a- it will show that the remainer camp are still alive and kicking and will vote towards parties who will defend them

b- it will fast track JC descend to obscurity
Surely it will simply see the Tories into power making all the rest of your post irrelevant posturing and pointless nothingness that nobody will care about a months later when the Tory government continues. They won't give 2 shits that the remain camp will vote towards parties that defend them. They'll laugh at you and tell you to go ahead and do it because it won't make the slightest bit of difference to them when the Lib Dem votes see them into power.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Surely it will simply see the Tories into power making all the rest of your post irrelevant posturing and pointless nothingness that nobody will care about a months later when the Tory government continues. They won't give 2 shits that the remain camp will vote towards parties that defend them. They'll laugh at you and tell you to go ahead and do it because it won't make the slightest bit of difference to them when the Lib Dem votes see them into power.
Corbyn's reign has relegated Labour into insignificance. They have lost this election by a mile even if their traditional supporters in England (people like me) stick by them. I am voting Lib Dem because they best represent my political views at this time and I want to see another centrist party in the mix going forward.
 

berbatrick

Renaissance Man
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@PedroMendez
About Corbyn-style poicies getting support primarily from college students and not grown-ups - that is not the case for Melenchon, who doesn't benefit from the kind of generational divide that fueled Bernie or even Corbyn. (I think Corbyn's rise was the mixture of young people and old leftist organisers, not like Bernie who was very heavily dependent on under-30s)