[shamans]

It's hard to disagree with this at times. Sometimes you'll ask people what they think the defender they're criticizing should've done in a given scenario and they'll come out with some ridiculous nonsense that Van Dijk in his prime probably couldn't pull off.

I do somewhat understand why Maguire receives such scrutiny though. The club made two moronic decisions which have led to it. The first was paying such a ludicrous fee for him, and the second was making him captain within about four months of joining. Had neither of these things happened, I think Maguire would more than likely be regarded as a decent but flawed defender who had a shite season in a shite team last season. As it is, blame will often go his way for goals or shots he feasibly couldn't do much about, and any mistake will be disproportionately scrutinized.

Yeah the club did make mistakes. I think he just doesn't suit ETH's system and think he's still probably a really good defender for a top 6/8 side. We just have better options now.

 

[Adamsk7]

For me at CB it’s

Varane
Martinez
Lindelof
Shaw
Casemiro
Malacia
Then Maguire

 

[Raven]

I feel a bit sorry for him, he's clearly trying his best but his confidence is totally gone and I can't really see any way back for him here at United.

 

[ValenciasDrilledCrosses]

Been a big Maguire defender as I think the abuse he’s gotten from the football world is over the top but like others have said his time is done. His head is gone when he plays for us, just makes everyone around him nervous and the relationship with the fans is also broken.

The worst part about his play is that he doesn’t play within his limitations. I appreciate he tries to he a proactive defender, but when you’re that slow and have that lack of agility you can’t make some of the decisions he does.

There was one moment in the second half that typified Maguire’s last few seasons for us. Don’t remember the exact time or I’d ask @GifLord for a gif but it was during the 2nd half period period where we kept losing the ball and needlessly inviting pressure. Ball got played into Billing close to our box and Maguire steps up to try to win it far too late, completely vacating his space. Even a defender as quick off the mark as Varane probably doesn’t step up there. Maguire did and of course Billing simply flicked the ball around the corner into Anthony with Maguire out of position. Anthony went in on goal on his weak foot (still from a not great angle but could have been a much worse angle of Maguire stayed and tried to close him down) and forced a save from de Gea. A better forward probably punishes us there. Just gave me flashbacks to so many goals and near goals we’ve conceded over the past few years.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I feel a bit sorry for him, he's clearly trying his best but his confidence is totally gone and I can't really see any way back for him here at United.

And that's a bit of an issue! Everything he does you can pretty much see just how much thought/effort is going into it.

There seems to be nothing natural to his game at the moment (apart from getting his big noggin on things)

 

[Pat Cat]

I won't defend his wider performance because I didn't watch the full match, but just looking at some of the highlights there are a few occasions of "comical defending" being pointed out which are really just Maguire not being able to mark two players at once. With Jaidon Anthony's shot, for example, Maguire didn't do a huge amount wrong; Solanke's backheel pass was firstly very well executed and secondly Wan-Bissaka was caught out of position due to it being a quick transition. Equally, for Billing's first header, Maguire has both Billing and Solanke in the area and is the only player positioned to challenge either of them. (He should've done better on Solanke's subsequent header though)

I don't think he merits a place in the side, to be clear, but some people are ludicrously harsh on Maguire at times.

Fully agree. He was solid last night, not sure why people are talking like he scored a hatrick of own goals or something.

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

Been a big Maguire defender as I think the abuse he’s gotten from the football world is over the top but like others have said his time is done. His head is gone when he plays for us, just makes everyone around him nervous and the relationship with the fans is also broken.

The worst part about his play is that he doesn’t play within his limitations. I appreciate he tries to he a proactive defender, but when you’re that slow and have that lack of agility you can’t make some of the decisions he does.

There was one moment in the second half that typified Maguire’s last few seasons for us. Don’t remember the exact time or I’d ask @GifLord for a gif but it was during the 2nd half period period where we kept losing the ball and needlessly inviting pressure. Ball got played into Billing close to our box and Maguire steps up to try to win it far too late, completely vacating his space. Even a defender as quick off the mark as Varane probably doesn’t step up there. Maguire did and of course Billing simply flicked the ball around the corner into Anthony with Maguire out of position. Anthony went in on goal on his weak foot (still from a not great angle but could have been a much worse angle of Maguire stayed and tried to close him down) and forced a save from de Gea. A better forward probably punishes us there. Just gave me flashbacks to so many goals and near goals we’ve conceded over the past few years.

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. Billing has nobody except Maguire around him and is occupying a pretty central area in and around our final third; I don't think it'd have been clever for Maguire to drop off him in that scenario as he'd have lots of time and space to work with in a dangerous area. The major issue was that we turned the ball over quite easily whilst moving up the field, meaning Wan-Bissaka was well out of position to deal with the on-rushing left-winger.

I really don't think Maguire did anything particularly wrong in this situation. Billing's pass was an extremely well executed backheel; in that scenario I think you just have to credit the attacker for making the most of the little time and space he had on the ball.

 

[GifLord]

Been a big Maguire defender as I think the abuse he’s gotten from the football world is over the top but like others have said his time is done. His head is gone when he plays for us, just makes everyone around him nervous and the relationship with the fans is also broken.

The worst part about his play is that he doesn’t play within his limitations. I appreciate he tries to he a proactive defender, but when you’re that slow and have that lack of agility you can’t make some of the decisions he does.

There was one moment in the second half that typified Maguire’s last few seasons for us. Don’t remember the exact time or I’d ask @GifLord for a gif but it was during the 2nd half period period where we kept losing the ball and needlessly inviting pressure. Ball got played into Billing close to our box and Maguire steps up to try to win it far too late, completely vacating his space. Even a defender as quick off the mark as Varane probably doesn’t step up there. Maguire did and of course Billing simply flicked the ball around the corner into Anthony with Maguire out of position. Anthony went in on goal on his weak foot (still from a not great angle but could have been a much worse angle of Maguire stayed and tried to close him down) and forced a save from de Gea. A better forward probably punishes us there. Just gave me flashbacks to so many goals and near goals we’ve conceded over the past few years.

 

[RaddyRed]

I won't defend his wider performance because I didn't watch the full match, but just looking at some of the highlights there are a few occasions of "comical defending" being pointed out which are really just Maguire not being able to mark two players at once. With Jaidon Anthony's shot, for example, Maguire didn't do a huge amount wrong; Solanke's backheel pass was firstly very well executed and secondly Wan-Bissaka was caught out of position due to it being a quick transition. Equally, for Billing's first header, Maguire has both Billing and Solanke in the area and is the only player positioned to challenge either of them. (He should've done better on Solanke's subsequent header though)



I don't think he merits a place in the side, to be clear, but some people are ludicrously harsh on Maguire at times.

Nothing to do with defending. It's the two ridiculous attempts at simple distribution last night that drew laughter from the crowd. The one out for the corner in particular.

If deciding its ludicrous that Harry Maguire is nowhere near good enough for a top 4 side, then I'm afraid I am in the ludicrous camp.

 

[Roboc7]

I thought he was poor overall last night but got away with it, better in second half than the first at least.

It’s gone past the point of how good/bad he is now, he just is completely unsuited to how the manager wants to play. There’s no future for him beyond this season.

I think the reality was Leicester were right kind of level for him. Even though players like him and Fellaini were playing well at good clubs the next step up was always going to be beyond their limitations.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

I just don’t think Lindelof and Maguire play well together. They both seem to panic when they are about to receive the ball and sniff an opposition player about to press them.
One with either Varane or Martinez is much better.

I thought he was OK last night. Did his job, albeit I always felt on edge when they were passing it around the back.

I can see him being dropped to the bench over the next two games to phase him out again before the City game.

Play him against Charlton.

 

[The Corinthian]

At least he can play vs Everton and Charlton giving adequate rest time to Varane and Licha (or Shaw).

 

[kafta]

The game looks like its too fast for him. Always struggling to be in position, always not enough time on the ball.

Whatever the reason, he's just not good enough, and i don't see a way back for him.

 

[dpansheth]

I just don’t think Lindelof and Maguire play well together. They both seem to panic when they are about to receive the ball and sniff an opposition player about to press them.
One with either Varane or Martinez is much better.

I thought he was OK last night. Did his job, albeit I always felt on edge when they were passing it around the back.

I can see him being dropped to the bench over the next two games to phase him out again before the City game.

Play him against Charlton.

I hate both pointing their hands all the time to midfielders asking them to come deeper whenever the pass needs to be more than 10 yards.

 

[Revaulx]

Where was he when Tyrone Mings, erm Billings, had two clean headers on goal in the space of 15 secs??

Loved his pass out for a corner though, lovely stuff.

Glad someone’s mentioned this.

You would expect him to be able to deal with stuff like that with no difficulty at all; it’s the one thing he’s supposed to be great at.

 

[Red Royal]

For me at CB it’s

Varane
Martinez
Lindelof
Shaw
Casemiro
Malacia
Then Maguire

Malacia over Maguire?? I agree Maguire is shot of confidence but would you really want that? Why not McT before that

 

[Hugh Jass]

That pass out for a corner was a beauty.

 

[Gazza]

Yeah the club did make mistakes. I think he just doesn't suit ETH's system and think he's still probably a really good defender for a top 6/8 side. We just have better options now.

Seriously doubt that. I don't think any of them would want him either. No chance he would get into any of the top 6 teams.

 

[TheReligion]

I won't defend his wider performance because I didn't watch the full match, but just looking at some of the highlights there are a few occasions of "comical defending" being pointed out which are really just Maguire not being able to mark two players at once. With Jaidon Anthony's shot, for example, Maguire didn't do a huge amount wrong; Billing's* backheel pass was firstly very well executed and secondly Wan-Bissaka was caught out of position due to it being a quick transition. Equally, for Billing's first header, Maguire has both Billing and Solanke in the area and is the only player positioned to challenge either of them. (He should've done better on Solanke's subsequent header though)

I don't think he merits a place in the side, to be clear, but some people are ludicrously harsh on Maguire at times.

A sensible and rationale opinion amongst the sea of agenda.

 

[Adamsk7]

Malacia over Maguire?? I agree Maguire is shot of confidence but would you really want that? Why not McT before that

I am serious. It’s more to do with the style of football we wanna play. If Martinez is injured, of our current options I’d go Shaw then Malacia because they offer the mobility. In Shaws case also the food technique and passing and in Malacia’s, the tenacity and aggressive tackling.

Considering Ten Hag played Shaw there for two games over Maguire, I think he realises the same thing. If Varane is injured I’d have Lindelof first then probably Maguire.

Honestly I think he’s awful. I probably do have an agenda against him but that’s only because he gave me it with his absolutely woeful performances both as a defender and a captain!!

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

A sensible and rationale opinion amongst the sea of agenda.

There's no agenda. People are sick of having a CB that's the laughingstock of football at least once a game, and worse having that CB be one that we paid 80m for and gave the armband to. He offers no inspiration, no real fight, and captained the club through one of the worst periods we've ever had in recent history while being at fault for a myriad of errors himself when people thought of him as "not error prone".

I mean if you can't understand why he doesn't have anymore good will with the majority of supporters I don't know what to tell you.

 

[TheReligion]

There's no agenda. People are sick of having a CB that's the laughingstock of football at least once a game, and worse having that CB be one that we paid 80m for and gave the armband to. He offers no inspiration, no real fight, and captained the club through one of the worst periods we've ever had in recent history while being at fault for a myriad of errors himself when people thought of him as "not error prone".

I mean if you can't understand why he doesn't have anymore good will with the majority of supporters I don't know what to tell you.

There’s an agenda. You only have to read through the thread.

Some people have far too much negative energy to spend on finding faults and errors in his game.

He’s not our first choice anymore. He’s probably 4th. He’ll likely go in the summer. Everyone knows this.

 

[Dve]

Maguire mostly had good involvements yesterday, plus a couple of bad ones, which I understand are the solely focus here. Meanwhile, no words about Casemiro's bad involvement when he on two occasions rushed into tackles, came late and was outplayed, which left us with a huge gap in front of the defenders. And a couple of misplaced passes as well.

My point is not to go in on Casemiro, I absolutely love him as a player, but I don't fancy the unfair treatment of players, where some are judged only by the good things they do, while others are judge only by the bad.

 

[Anustart89]

If we're going to put gifs in here of Maguire being Maguire then I would request a gif of Maguire's action shown in a replay at 28:10 where he steps up to tackle a player who's wide and far away from goal, failing to get the ball and not getting back into position in time to cut out the pass to a man who has run into the space vacated by him. Fortunately for us, that player happened to get himself offside due to not checking his run.

And then we also have the one at 82:30 where the ball is played towards an attacker 35 yards from goal, Maguire hesitates and instead of backing off re-commits (way too late) to pushing forward, gets nowhere near the ball and leaves a gaping hole behind him which results in another good scoring opportunity for the opponents.

@GifLord

 

[mikeyt]

Confidence has gone, but he never had the ability to play at this club with a decent coach. He's criminally bad and stealing a living (not his fault I appreciate). Personally I would feel pretty happy if he never plays another minute, he's a shocker of a player.

 

[GifLord]

If we're going to put gifs in here of Maguire being Maguire then I would request a gif of Maguire's action shown in a replay at 28:10 where he steps up to tackle a player who's wide and far away from goal, failing to get the ball and not getting back into position in time to cut out the pass to a man who has run into the space vacated by him. Fortunately for us, that player happened to get himself offside due to not checking his run.

And then we also have the one at 82:30 where the ball is played towards an attacker 35 yards from goal, Maguire hesitates and instead of backing off re-commits (way too late) to pushing forward, gets nowhere near the ball and leaves a gaping hole behind him which results in another good scoring opportunity for the opponents.

@GifLord

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

So of the four clips posted, precisely one of them was caused primarily by a Maguire mistake, and that one was an offside chance. The first two are basically just "Why can't Maguire mark two players at once?!", and the last occurs because Maguire is filling in at right back because nobody else is there and Dalot* is completely failing to get back with enough urgency.

You people really don't help yourselves with this "agenda" accusation you hate so much when you do stuff like this...

 

[Anustart89]

So of the four clips posted, precisely one of them was caused primarily by a Maguire mistake, and that one was an offside chance. The first two are basically just "Why can't Maguire mark two players at once?!", and the last occurs because Maguire is filling in at right back because nobody else is there and McTominay is completely failing to get back with enough urgency.

You people really don't help yourselves with this "agenda" accusation you hate so much when you do stuff like this...

It’s not “why can’t he mark two players”, really.

It’s rather a case of “when he has to make a decision between two players, why does he always pick the one that leaves him the furthest away from goal and leaves space in behind him? And why does he always fail to make it in time when he makes that decision?”. My main critique of him is that he always makes the “proactive” choice but it’s not really a good decision when he’s always late to the situation. At some point you’d think he’d realise that he tends to get stranded and start falling back, but considering he’s 29 now I’m not going to hold my breath. It’s not like he’s going to get faster either so that he’s likely to improve in that aspect. Teams are particularly targeting that aspect and I’ve lost count of how many times Maguire’s stepped up and the space behind him has been exploited, yet there are people in here constantly blaming everyone else when it doesn’t seem to happen to anyone but Maguire. He has obvious deficiencies in his game related to his physical attributes but just doesn’t seem to fancy adjusting his game to mitigate their effect on the team, instead just choosing to do his thing at all times so he can be seen as a proactive defender.

 

[crossy1686]

So of the four clips posted, precisely one of them was caused primarily by a Maguire mistake, and that one was an offside chance. The first two are basically just "Why can't Maguire mark two players at once?!", and the last occurs because Maguire is filling in at right back because nobody else is there and McTominay is completely failing to get back with enough urgency.

You people really don't help yourselves with this "agenda" accusation you hate so much when you do stuff like this...

You're telling me the one where Maguire is literally caught in no mans land instead of being ethier tight to the forward or dropping off to deal with the flick is someone else's problem?

It's an experienced CB's job to read the game, which he does well, but instead of dealing with the issue he turns and starts pointing at Anthony like there's someone else nearby to deal with his lack dealing with the situation.

You get tight, grapple and foul the man if you have to, or you drop off because you saw the flick coming, not stand in no mans land pointing at the runner. This is why Rio was one of the greats, there was rarely a time when he got done like this, he was always tight to his man or mopping up the space.

 

[Sunny Jim]

that second gif is a trade mark Maguire play.

 

[Floyd]

This is just awful awful defending. Trapped in no mans land due to poor decision making and snail like pace.

I'm 99 % certain that Varane would've stayed back and dealt with it rather easily whereas Martinez would've gotten to the ball first and played a lovely progressive pass.

 

[Floyd]

that second gif is a trade mark Maguire play.

It is. Seen a milllion times.

I used to like him in an Ole-team, now he's too exposed and his limitations shows.

 

[Escobar]

I feel a bit sorry for him, he's clearly trying his best but his confidence is totally gone and I can't really see any way back for him here at United.

It is not confidence, it is his attitude. When he was in the press, he really made some stupid comments that showed that he does not have the right mentality. And it shows now. He had his chance and he blew it

 

[Escobar]

that second gif is a trade mark Maguire play.

Shocking really. Hope we get a decent fee for him

 

[A-man]

Maguire mostly had good involvements yesterday, plus a couple of bad ones, which I understand are the solely focus here. Meanwhile, no words about Casemiro's bad involvement when he on two occasions rushed into tackles, came late and was outplayed, which left us with a huge gap in front of the defenders. And a couple of misplaced passes as well.

My point is not to go in on Casemiro, I absolutely love him as a player, but I don't fancy the unfair treatment of players, where some are judged only by the good things they do, while others are judge only by the bad.

I totally agree. His game is dissected in to pieces and people ask for pics and video clips to show his mistakes and errors even after a clean sheet. We should be happy about the squad, we got our fourth straight clean sheet without all the defenders who have been first xi starters earlier in the season.

I am serious. It’s more to do with the style of football we wanna play. If Martinez is injured, of our current options I’d go Shaw then Malacia because they offer the mobility. In Shaws case also the food technique and passing and in Malacia’s, the tenacity and aggressive tackling.

Considering Ten Hag played Shaw there for two games over Maguire, I think he realises the same thing. If Varane is injured I’d have Lindelof first then probably Maguire.

Honestly I think he’s awful. I probably do have an agenda against him but that’s only because he gave me it with his absolutely woeful performances both as a defender and a captain!!

I think ETH played Shaw because he has decided Maguire shouldn’t play to the left. When Lindelof was fully fit again, he started as LCB. Personally I don’t know why, because Maguire has always had his good games to the left. Shaw did a good job, but it was only two matches against weak opposition so not can’t really evaluate him. We also need him as LB as Malacia is nowhere near as good.

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

You're telling me the one where Maguire is literally caught in no mans land instead of being ethier tight to the forward or dropping off to deal with the flick is someone else's problem?

It's an experienced CB's job to read the game, which he does well, but instead of dealing with the issue he turns and starts pointing at Anthony like there's someone else nearby to deal with his lack dealing with the situation.

You get tight, grapple and foul the man if you have to, or you drop off because you saw the flick coming, not stand in no mans land pointing at the runner. This is why Rio was one of the greats, there was rarely a time when he got done like this, he was always tight to his man or mopping up the space.

You must be talking about the first one, which leads to Jaidon Anthony's shot on goal. If he drops off of Billing then Billing has a good amount of time and space in a dangerous position near the edge of the area. If he fouls him then we give away a free kick in that same dangerous position. Closing him down was, in my view, the correct call. That Billing was able to pull off a really impressive backheel pass doesn't suggest to me that this was poor defending from Maguire; you just have to applaud Billing there.

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

This is just awful awful defending. Trapped in no mans land due to poor decision making and snail like pace.

I'm 99 % certain that Varane would've stayed back and dealt with it rather easily whereas Martinez would've gotten to the ball first and played a lovely progressive pass.

I mean fair fecks, I'd be a complete moron to ignore the fact that Maguire lacks recovery pace. It's possibly also true that Varane would've done better in that scenario; in fact I'd say he most probably would've done. I really don't think the initial decision to close down the attacker (Jaidon Anthony I think it is?) is that egregious though. Nobody else is nearby him and if you give him time on the ball you give him the opportunity to run with the ball and build up speed which isn't ideal either.

I'd say it's fair to argue that Maguire over-commits there but the bigger issue is that Dalot* is showing a frankly dumbfounding lack of urgency to get back and offer protection on our right side. Thankfully, Casemiro as usual does his job and drops into the defensive line to offer protection and make the chance more difficult.

 

[crossy1686]

You must be talking about the first one, which leads to Jaidon Anthony's shot on goal. If he drops off of Billing then Billing has a good amount of time and space in a dangerous position near the edge of the area. If he fouls him then we give away a free kick in that same dangerous position. Closing him down was, in my view, the correct call. That Billing was able to pull off a really impressive backheel pass doesn't suggest to me that this was poor defending from Maguire; you just have to applaud Billing there.

If he drops off then Billing doesn't know where he is, so he can try the flick, which is suspect he would have done because he only had eyes for the runner and Maguire would have dealt with the loose ball easily. Billing isn't daft, he's not going to dwell on the ball in that position because someone will either come through the back of him or Casemiro will be on his case before he can decide what he's going to do with it.

Closing down may have been the correct call in this situation, but the fact stands that he was nowhere near him when he received the ball so he didn't even do that. Instead he switched off, let Billing get away from him, panicked when he saw he was open for the pass, ran towards Billing and found himself in the middle of nowhere, which is exactly where Billing wanted him. It's not brilliant, it's basics at best.

You've heard the expression "touch tight" right? We all learned that at school.

 

[RedRoach]

There’s an agenda. You only have to read through the thread.

Some people have far too much negative energy to spend on finding faults and errors in his game.

He’s not our first choice anymore. He’s probably 4th. He’ll likely go in the summer. Everyone knows this.

Nonsense, there is no agenda. People just want to see the team have a competent calm central defence.

Against a better side with competent attackers Maguire's performance would have been punished by one or more goals and that is apart from the poor passing and slowing down our play (something he improved upon in the second half granted).

When Martinez and Varane play there is a sense of calm and control in defence that permeates through the rest of the team and gives the team confidence.

With Maguire in there we look constantly nervous and the on the verge of conceding and that against bang average opposition.

If you have a working set of eyes and watched the entire match and not just the highlights then you cannot justify that performance from Maguire.

He is fine as backup but is in no way good enough for United's first team and that is regardless whether he is an England starter or not. Lindelof was Sweden's defender of the year and is also not good enough.

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

If he drops off then Billing doesn't know where he is, so he can try the flick, which is suspect he would have done because he only had eyes for the runner and Maguire would have dealt with the loose ball easily. Billing isn't daft, he's not going to dwell on the ball in that position because someone will either come through the back of him or Casemiro will be on his case before he can decide what he's going to do with it.

Closing down may have been the correct call in this situation, but the fact stands that he was nowhere near him when he received the ball so he didn't even do that. Instead he switched off, let Billing get away from him, panicked when he saw he was open for the pass, ran towards Billing and found himself in the middle of nowhere, which is exactly where Billing wanted him. It's not brilliant, it's basics at best.

You've heard the expression "touch tight" right? We all learned that at school.

Come on, he's hardly "nowhere near him". Billing makes the pass first time because Maguire is nearby. You say that "Billing isn't going to dwell on the ball because someone will come through the back of him"; Maguire IS that someone in this scenario. Also, Casemiro would hardly be "on his case before he knows what do with the ball", because Casemiro actually is nowhere near him (not that he should be) and is also on the ground when he receives the ball.

The primary issue in this scenario is that the ball is given away really cheaply in a pretty good position for Bournemouth, creating a quick transition opportunity since Wan-Bissaka is out of position. I'm not blaming AWB either, to be clear; I think Eriksen and Martial are primarily culpable for giving the ball away too easily.