It is tiring pretending that there is not a right way to 'support' a club - there absolutely is

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The forum deteriorated because right from the start with Ole, people were prepared to stick by him however much of a shit show he put on because it was Ole. It almost become an obsession with some. People definitely wouldn't of been as charitable towards the manager if it was someone else.

Now things seem to be on the up (relatively speaking) it's as if people who supported Ole from the get go want to rub peoples noses in it and say they were right all along as these types of threads prove which is also a reason the forum is deteriorating. Maybe deteriorating is too strong a word but it certainly does bring conflict because BOTH sets of groups are as bad as each other.
That's mostly Sammsky though. Has to be a shoe-in for WUM of the year.
 
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Like I said - people have trawled through my posts to find examples of negativity and really struggled.
Just so people are aware - when Mourinho was here I believe I won multiple funniest thread and top red awards on the forum.My threads literally made the news for being so well researched and there were hundreds of people coming around to my way of thinking. I actively made the board a better place.
Alright Donald :lol:

Lack of self awareness, a la Donald Trump, is one of the worst human traits.

You were so SO wrong about Moyes it’s not even funny, and you were so SO negative for 2 years during Mourinho’s time.

You are the toxicity in this forum, and this thread simply another example of it, are which there are hundreds and hundreds.
 
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Bilbo

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Just so people are aware - when Mourinho was here I believe I won multiple funniest thread and top red awards on the forum.My threads literally made the news for being so well researched and there were hundreds of people coming around to my way of thinking. I actively made the board a better place.
Paragraphs like this aren't going to do you any favours. Unless this whole thing is a wind-up, in which case well played
 
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Paragraphs like this aren't going to do you any favours. Unless this whole thing is a wind-up, in which case well played
We know it’s a wind up as unlike yourself, Twigs is inconsistent as feck. If HE likes the manager or player, like David Moyes or Ole, no-one is allowed to say a bad word. However, if he doesn’t, it’s a barrage of negativity.

He has added more toxicity to this forum than any regular poster. During Moyes time all fans were shit for doubting him and he couldn’t stop banging that drum, during Mourinho’s time, from day one it was the opposite and my god he made this place tedious.

Now we’re back to him creating thread after thread trying to pitch fans against each other.

I’ve met Twigs, he’s a decent lad, but he’s a toxic poster, always has been.

People who can see both sides and try to find middle ground, @Robbie Boy for example, add so much more to the forum than the Donald Trump-esque bigade.

This thread from you Bilbs, would have so much more substance at least, as you have in fairness, giving every single manager a fair crack. I’ve never seen you call a load of players “scumbags”, or say you hate half the team etc etc.
 
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Bilbo

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We know it’s a wind up as unlike yourself, Twigs is inconsistent as feck. If HE likes the manager or player, like David Moyes or Ole, no-one is allowed to say a bad word. However, if he doesn’t, it’s a barrage of negativity.

He has added more toxicity to this forum than any regular poster. During Moyes time all fans were shit for doubting him and he couldn’t stop banging that drum, during Mourinho’s time, from day one it was the opposite and my god he made this place tedious.

Now we’re back to him creating thread after thread trying to pitch fans against each other.

I’ve met Twigs, he’s a decent lad, but he’s a toxic poster, always has been.

People who can see both sides and try to find middle ground, @Robbie Boy for example, add so much more to the forum than the Donald Trump-esque bigade.

This thread from you Bilbs, would have so much more substance at least, as you have in fairness, giving every single manager a fair crack. I’ve never seen you call a load of players “scumbags”, or say you hate half the team etc etc.
I do think the idea of the thread comes from a good place, but its approaching it from the wrong angle IMO. Rather than tell people how to be a better United fan it should be appealing to people to try to be better posters.

Its bothered me for ages, but I've come to accept that this forum is probably always going to be a bloodbath after most matches. Perhaps it always was, but it never seemed anywhere near as bad as it is nowadays so the only thing to do is avoid coming here afterwards, which is a bugger because I've been a member almost half of my life.
 

owlo

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Paragraphs like this aren't going to do you any favours. Unless this whole thing is a wind-up, in which case well played
Of course it's all a wind up. I don't get why people engage with him.
 
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Rather than tell people how to be a better United fan it should be appealing to people to try to be better posters.
And it’d still be wrong coming from the biggest hypocrite on the forum, a bloke who has actively stoked the flames of conflict between fans, years of constant negativity mixed in with periods of blind-faithism for the likes of Moyes.
A guy who constantly creates threads to either flame conflict else Donald Trump the shit out of himself.
 

Random Task

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I don't think this thread was intended as a WUM. The OP clearly has issues with shit-posting and its effects on the forum as a whole.
 

Danny Roberts

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There seems to be a pervading theme on this forum as there is in real life. It's an idea that people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. The amount of nonsense I have seen posted that is excused with, 'Well we are all fans - sometimes we let emotions get the better of us.'

After a win yesterday, there are more negative posts than there are positive ones. As I type this the top three threads in the player performances forum are Lingard/James and Greenwood. No prizes for guessing the content of these threads. There's no denying that once we lose the post match thread gets roughly five times as many posts as when we win comfortably. Negativity sells on forums and amasses plenty of replies.

This is not how you support a football team.

Supporting a team is about getting together and backing the lads. It's about giving the local lads more leeway. It's about believing in 'legends' of the club and supporting them. It's about having positive feelings about Manchester United.

Some of you clearly get no joy from a game unless we win every match. Some of you want new players, new managers, new formations every week instead of taking pride in the journey.

Support the team. Don't make up childish nicknames. Don't insult those in the team you don't think are good enough. Don't post five negative comments for every half hearted positive comment you can see. Don't stick up for pundits or players who insult our team.

Get behind the lads. Wish them the best. Wish that the player you hate the most can turn it around. Give the young winger who loses the ball a bit of slack. Believe that the player on the fringes might turn it around.

It must be so miserable for some of you.
Nice!
 

Bilbo

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So - OP and his posting history aside - is it fair to say that a lot of people are feeling some frustration over the direction the United forum has taken in the last few years, or is it really just a handful of posters?
 
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So - OP and his posting history aside - is it fair to say that a lot of people are feeling some frustration over the direction the United forum has taken in the last few years, or is it really just a handful of posters?
I think too many people choose a stance, or a “side” if you like (Wummy is absolutely the worst), and stick to it no matter what.

The amount of posters that try to find any middle ground or show any flexibility is erm... pathetic.
 

Bilbo

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I think too many people choose a stance, or a “side” if you like (Wummy is absolutely the worst), and stick to it no matter what.

The amount of posters that try to find any middle ground or show any flexibility is erm... pathetic.
I think we are all guilty of that at times, to varying degrees. Some of the debate on that thread was very strong, but as you say people got far too wedded to their position and couldn't see clearly anymore.

For me, this place would improve tenfold if the new generation of posters could simply word their disappointment after a poor performance a little more constructively. The odd poor result and/or performance is not only expected, its guaranteed, but people are still losing their minds over it. It can't be healthy to have a number of posters choose to avoid the Cafe after a match.

Nothing the moderators can do really. Its on the individuals
 

SecondFig

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So - OP and his posting history aside - is it fair to say that a lot of people are feeling some frustration over the direction the United forum has taken in the last few years, or is it really just a handful of posters?
I've been on here for a fair while, and I'll be honest, I think the quality of posts has deteriorated significantly, and the amount of whinging knee-jerk posts/posters has increased hugely. Some of that may be to do with broader fan base issues, social media etc.. But I think it's also linked to changes to the caf itself and the system of promoting members etc
 

Plymouth Red

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I think too many people choose a stance, or a “side” if you like (Wummy is absolutely the worst), and stick to it no matter what.

The amount of posters that try to find any middle ground or show any flexibility is erm... pathetic.
I think this polarisation is down to some inescapable factors. Firstly, perception is reality. If my perception is that Martial is a great number 9 and yours is that he is totally unsuited to the CF role, it's going to be hard for us to reconcile our differences. All we can do is acknowledge his positive qualities, offer an opinion about how we would use him to best effect and refrain from describing his deficiencies in an abusive way.
And therein lies another problem. Many posters don't appear willing to concede that a player they favour actually has any weaknesses, which I find hard to understand. What causes the temperature to rise is when folk talk about players in purely black and white terms, when actually everything is a shade of grey.
Every player on the planet has a deficiency as well as a strength. How we each choose to judge them, though, is a totally subjective call.
I'm old school, so I rank traits such as work rate, determination and hunger very highly. I don't use data analytics that much (but I really admire Borys for how he uses them) because I'm more about gut feeling.
This means I judge a player like Fred very highly, even though he's technically inferior to Pogba. Does it matter? No. Am I hurting anyone? No. Is it personal? No. Unless, of course, the way I express myself is likely to cause offence which brings us back to the issue of self-awareness.
I agree with you that there appear to be a lot of closed minds but I find that just mirrors life generally. I also have to say that it would take an awful lot to convince me that the OP doesn't do more harm than good here.
 

JPRouve

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I think we are all guilty of that at times, to varying degrees. Some of the debate on that thread was very strong, but as you say people got far too wedded to their position and couldn't see clearly anymore.

For me, this place would improve tenfold if the new generation of posters could simply word their disappointment after a poor performance a little more constructively. The odd poor result and/or performance is not only expected, its guaranteed, but people are still losing their minds over it. It can't be healthy to have a number of posters choose to avoid the Cafe after a match.

Nothing the moderators can do really. Its on the individuals
Something that I have learned with Rugby is that I get too emotional during or just after games and it's best to give yourself a few days before making strong statements.
 
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I think this polarisation is down to some inescapable factors. Firstly, perception is reality. If my perception is that Martial is a great number 9 and yours is that he is totally unsuited to the CF role, it's going to be hard for us to reconcile our differences. All we can do is acknowledge his positive qualities, offer an opinion about how we would use him to best effect and refrain from describing his deficiencies in an abusive way.
And therein lies another problem. Many posters don't appear willing to concede that a player they favour actually has any weaknesses, which I find hard to understand. What causes the temperature to rise is when folk talk about players in purely black and white terms, when actually everything is a shade of grey.
Every player on the planet has a deficiency as well as a strength. How we each choose to judge them, though, is a totally subjective call.
I'm old school, so I rank traits such as work rate, determination and hunger very highly. I don't use data analytics that much (but I really admire Borys for how he uses them) because I'm more about gut feeling.
This means I judge a player like Fred very highly, even though he's technically inferior to Pogba. Does it matter? No. Am I hurting anyone? No. Is it personal? No. Unless, of course, the way I express myself is likely to cause offence which brings us back to the issue of self-awareness.
I agree with you that there appear to be a lot of closed minds but I find that just mirrors life generally. I also have to say that it would take an awful lot to convince me that the OP doesn't do more harm than good here.
Excellent post that.
 

Bilbo

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I've been on here for a fair while, and I'll be honest, I think the quality of posts has deteriorated significantly, and the amount of whinging knee-jerk posts/posters has increased hugely. Some of that may be to do with broader fan base issues, social media etc.. But I think it's also linked to changes to the caf itself and the system of promoting members etc
What are those changes?
 

Random Task

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Then he should ban himself.
He kinda has a point though, the standard of posting on the forum has reached an all-time low.

Some examples of shit-posting:

It's mainly because we have a serial bottler as a manager who after more than 10 years in the game has a blank CV
Petulance.

Thats us out then least it stops us always losing in the semi finals
Negativity.

It's about giving the local lads more leeway
Irony.
 

Bilbo

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I think this polarisation is down to some inescapable factors. Firstly, perception is reality. If my perception is that Martial is a great number 9 and yours is that he is totally unsuited to the CF role, it's going to be hard for us to reconcile our differences. All we can do is acknowledge his positive qualities, offer an opinion about how we would use him to best effect and refrain from describing his deficiencies in an abusive way.
And therein lies another problem. Many posters don't appear willing to concede that a player they favour actually has any weaknesses, which I find hard to understand. What causes the temperature to rise is when folk talk about players in purely black and white terms, when actually everything is a shade of grey.
Every player on the planet has a deficiency as well as a strength. How we each choose to judge them, though, is a totally subjective call.
I'm old school, so I rank traits such as work rate, determination and hunger very highly. I don't use data analytics that much (but I really admire Borys for how he uses them) because I'm more about gut feeling.
This means I judge a player like Fred very highly, even though he's technically inferior to Pogba. Does it matter? No. Am I hurting anyone? No. Is it personal? No. Unless, of course, the way I express myself is likely to cause offence which brings us back to the issue of self-awareness.
I agree with you that there appear to be a lot of closed minds but I find that just mirrors life generally. I also have to say that it would take an awful lot to convince me that the OP doesn't do more harm than good here.
Good post. Its amazing how differently people can see the same football match so differently. For example I thought Maguire was absolutely outstanding against City last week, at least as good as Dias who got all the plaudits. Came on here to offer that opinion and was immediately struck by how many posters were criticising him (some quite strongly). I thought I'd watch the game again to see whether I was full of shit but I haven't gotten around to it and unlikely to now.
 

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I think too many people choose a stance, or a “side” if you like (Wummy is absolutely the worst), and stick to it no matter what.

The amount of posters that try to find any middle ground or show any flexibility is erm... pathetic.
I have posted five threads with Mourinho in the title when he was here. Three were positive.
I am literally an example of a good poster based on what you are looking for.
 

Dante

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I think too many people choose a stance, or a “side” if you like (Wummy is absolutely the worst), and stick to it no matter what.

The amount of posters that try to find any middle ground or show any flexibility is erm... pathetic.
You're really bad for this kind of posting as well.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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I do think the idea of the thread comes from a good place, but its approaching it from the wrong angle IMO. Rather than tell people how to be a better United fan it should be appealing to people to try to be better posters.

Its bothered me for ages, but I've come to accept that this forum is probably always going to be a bloodbath after most matches. Perhaps it always was, but it never seemed anywhere near as bad as it is nowadays so the only thing to do is avoid coming here afterwards, which is a bugger because I've been a member almost half of my life.
The thing is Bilbo, I do exactly the same thing and it's clear reading this thread that many of the reasonable and better posters on this forum do the same. The issue is that just creates a vacuum of decent posters after a defeat which shrouds the whole place in negative energy. Surely if this forum was as reasonable as we would like we should all be able to come on here and discuss what went wrong and constructively break down the performances. Those are conversations I want to have on here but you can't because a few negative fans drown out the rest.
 

Siorac

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Good post. Its amazing how differently people can see the same football match so differently. For example I thought Maguire was absolutely outstanding against City last week, at least as good as Dias who got all the plaudits. Came on here to offer that opinion and was immediately struck by how many posters were criticising him (some quite strongly). I thought I'd watch the game again to see whether I was full of shit but I haven't gotten around to it and unlikely to now.
He was partly culpable for their first goal - got caught ball-watching, along with a number of his colleagues. And such is the life of the centre-back, or goalkeeper: a single mistake, if it has significant consequences, is enough to get criticised.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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I think this polarisation is down to some inescapable factors. Firstly, perception is reality. If my perception is that Martial is a great number 9 and yours is that he is totally unsuited to the CF role, it's going to be hard for us to reconcile our differences. All we can do is acknowledge his positive qualities, offer an opinion about how we would use him to best effect and refrain from describing his deficiencies in an abusive way.
And therein lies another problem. Many posters don't appear willing to concede that a player they favour actually has any weaknesses, which I find hard to understand. What causes the temperature to rise is when folk talk about players in purely black and white terms, when actually everything is a shade of grey.
Every player on the planet has a deficiency as well as a strength. How we each choose to judge them, though, is a totally subjective call.
I'm old school, so I rank traits such as work rate, determination and hunger very highly. I don't use data analytics that much (but I really admire Borys for how he uses them) because I'm more about gut feeling.
This means I judge a player like Fred very highly, even though he's technically inferior to Pogba. Does it matter? No. Am I hurting anyone? No. Is it personal? No. Unless, of course, the way I express myself is likely to cause offence which brings us back to the issue of self-awareness.
I agree with you that there appear to be a lot of closed minds but I find that just mirrors life generally. I also have to say that it would take an awful lot to convince me that the OP doesn't do more harm than good here.
Very good post and I would agree. Whats the solution though, everyone will have different opinions and that's fine but I think you need to be ready and able to defend your views with sound logic, not just irrational feeling.
 

Bilbo

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The thing is Bilbo, I do exactly the same thing and it's clear reading this thread that many of the reasonable and better posters on this forum do the same. The issue is that just creates a vacuum of decent posters after a defeat which shrouds the whole place in negative energy. Surely if this forum was as reasonable as we would like we should all be able to come on here and discuss what went wrong and constructively break down the performances. Those are conversations I want to have on here but you can't because a few negative fans drown out the rest.
Yes. Exactly the point I was hoping to get across. The quote about Arsenal from earlier this season - "they lost, but they know why they lost" - is a great quote. It is exactly what, in a ideal world, this forum (any forum) should be IMO. Analysis of the match.

There are a lot of posters on here of whom I would like to hear what they have to say after a performance, but I cant be bothered to find the comments anymore. Not because I'm lazy, but because it puts me in a worse mood than the result did to have to sort through the bile to get to them.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Yes. Exactly the point I was hoping to get across. The quote about Arsenal from earlier this season - "they lost, but they know why they lost" - is a great quote. It is exactly what, in a ideal world, this forum (any forum) should be IMO. Analysis of the match.

There are a lot of posters on here of whom I would like to hear what they have to say after a performance, but I cant be bothered to find the comments anymore. Not because I'm lazy, but because it puts me in a worse mood than the result did to have to sort through the bile to get to them.
Yeh I couldn't agree more and just to add, from my own perspective it also brings out the worst in me as a poster. If I see something that's clearly nonsense I'm far more likely to react in a negative way and say something rash in return. All that's doing is making me more likely to say something I don't fully mean whilst also adding to the general negativity. I've had to try and take a step back from many of the posts on here in recent years to try and avoid the worst of it.
 

Bilbo

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He was partly culpable for their first goal - got caught ball-watching, along with a number of his colleagues. And such is the life of the centre-back, or goalkeeper: a single mistake, if it has significant consequences, is enough to get criticised.
Yeah you're not wrong, but one mistake (half-mistake?) surrounded by 90 other minutes of excellence should be noted as such. Instead I logged in and post #4 of the City thread is "Feck off Maguire. I fecking hate this lump".

I just stop reading after that. What's the point? 4 or 5 years ago I would have put this down to one guy being a prat, but nowadays I know there will be many more of them.
 

Plymouth Red

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Yeh I couldn't agree more and just to add, from my own perspective it also brings out the worst in me as a poster. If I see something that's clearly nonsense I'm far more likely to react in a negative way and say something rash in return. All that's doing is making me more likely to say something I don't fully mean whilst also adding to the general negativity. I've had to try and take a step back from many of the posts on here in recent years to try and avoid the worst of it.
Too late for dry January, but let's have a feck-free February.
 

Counterfactual

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It makes sense that after a defeat the "moderate" posters would shy away from a forum being roiled by the views of more extreme posters.

I do wonder if the forum was less knee-jerk and reactionary in the past because we were winning trophies? It's a lot easier to take a defeat when there's silverware to polish. United have won precisely three cups since Fergie retired in 2013... the FA Cup in 2016, the Europa League in 2017 and the EFL Cup in 2017. It's simply not good enough for a club of our standing, which may be an entitled viewpoint, but I believe it to be shared by many fans. A defeat hurts more when it takes us out of a competition, like the semi final defeats, or means we're less likely to win the league, because it's been a relatively barren period for us.
 

Bilbo

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I do wonder if the forum was less knee-jerk and reactionary in the past because we were winning trophies?
Partly yes, but then every defeat back then was just as damaging to our season, possibly even more so. There was just a lot less bitterness around, and that's sort of understandable, but we cannot allow ourselves to be a fanbase that are this bitter every time we aren't the best team, because that is going to be the case more often than not.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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It makes sense that after a defeat the "moderate" posters would shy away from a forum being roiled by the views of more extreme posters.

I do wonder if the forum was less knee-jerk and reactionary in the past because we were winning trophies? It's a lot easier to take a defeat when there's silverware to polish. United have won precisely three cups since Fergie retired in 2013... the FA Cup in 2016, the Europa League in 2017 and the EFL Cup in 2017. It's simply not good enough for a club of our standing, which may be an entitled viewpoint, but I believe it to be shared by many fans. A defeat hurts more when it takes us out of a competition, like the semi final defeats, or means we're less likely to win the league, because it's been a relatively barren period for us.
This is without a doubt a major factor and to be fair it's understandable. In our periods of success, it didn't really matter if we lost the odd game or even went on a bad run, Fergie had the reigns and we all knew he would right the ship and our next trophy would be just around the corner. Since his retirement, we have limped from one manager to the next, one false dawn to another and all that's done is breed an attitude of impatience combined with a lack of trust in the team/management/board. There's a genuine fear amongst some Utd fans that we could end up the same way as Liverpool but I think often that fear translates itself into the quality of posts on this forum. I truly believe some people are so afraid to place trust in the team and Ole because they just can't face disappointment if we don't achieve what we want. My argument against that would be, the journey is part of the fun. It's enjoyable seeing new players making a name for themselves at the club like Bruno or having to apply the right kinds of pressures on our most talented youth players such as Rashford and Greenwood. This feels at least to me to be a genuinely enjoyable time to be a Utd fan and I do think it's sad that some people are so afraid of getting disappointed that they are blind to real progress.
 

The Firestarter

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Just so we are clear - your example of me being horrendously negative under Mourinho include a post made when Ole was in charge?

Just so people are aware - when Mourinho was here I believe I won multiple funniest thread and top red awards on the forum.My threads literally made the news for being so well researched and there were hundreds of people coming around to my way of thinking. I actively made the board a better place.
:lol: You are hilarious.
 

Shamana

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I think it's a feature of the internet. Without the internet, and we either were matchgoing fans or just saw the games of the television, we wouldn't have the endless possibilities about nitpicking on every thing about our club. But sure it's toxic as hell, but you can't disagree that our club has been disaster since Fergie retired considering our stature. I don't think we are in anyway more critical than Real Madrid fans, Barca fans, Bayern fans etc. because we simply have higher expectations than fans of lesser clubs.
 

Siorac

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Very good post and I would agree. Whats the solution though, everyone will have different opinions and that's fine but I think you need to be ready and able to defend your views with sound logic, not just irrational feeling.
That's a VERY tough requirement when it comes to football, of which emotion is a huge part. There's also a lot that is subjective about it: if someone says that they believe we're too disjointed and not playing as well as the results suggest, how do you defend that with 'sound logic'? Sure, you can point to xG stats and the like but ultimately it's a subjective impression.

And there is one thing that bothers me about this thread, and similar threads: it's that negative and abusive somehow get lumped in together, as if they are equal 'sins'. That shitposting and pessimism are both regularly mentioned as things that bring the quality down, with no differentiating between the two. Yet I feel that 'clueless PE teacher' and 'I don't think he has what it takes to get us to the next level' are VERY different things and the latter should not be a reason to turn you off Redcafe.
 

Siorac

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It's a lot easier to take a defeat when there's silverware to polish.
It was a LOT harder, for me at least, to take defeats back then. Every defeat felt significant, every single one brought doubts that maybe we're not as good as I thought, maybe we'll fall away?

By contrast, when the Van Gaal team posted its 72nd successive game without a shot on target in the first half, I just felt weary resignation.