It is tiring pretending that there is not a right way to 'support' a club - there absolutely is

Siorac

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A serious question here, is your standard that we never lose or draw a game? Do you expect us to be perfect in every game? Because in this season of all seasons, that isn't going to to happen, and it never happens in any season.
That's a strawman. We are, and indeed have been for seven years, very far from being perfect in every game. No one expects that yet people keep getting challenged with this ridiculous line even while we only ever fight for top 4 year after year. And regarding your Fergie question: remember the static, slow motion zombie passing thread? People did question the quality of performances in the latter years of Fergie reign, and I think rightly so: the decline started there, we simply didn't do enough, weren't proactive enough in preserving our status as one of the best teams in the world, for whatever reason.
Arteta and Lampard haven't gotten close to getting to that level of consistency in their comparative periods and neither has Rodgers who took over at a similar time at Leicester.
Nobody wants Arteta or Lampard to take over United so that's sort of a moot point. Lampard isn't rated by... anyone, really, at least on the Caf. Arteta has his backers, oddly enough, but not a lot of them. Rodgers doesn't really belong in this conversation as he manages a club with the fraction of the resources available to the manager of Chelsea or Manchester United. And no one really wants him either, though that's because of the Liverpool connection rather than anything else. Well, and maybe because of him being a right tosser with the envelope nonsense and whatnot.
if that was the case, why couldn't Jose and to a lesser extent LvG get close to him with predominantly the same set of players?
I'm not even sure what you mean here. Van Gaal had a points-per-game record of 1.81, Mourinho's was 1.97. Solskjaer's right now is 1.9. He's right in the middle between the two. Or do you mean their big game records? Because Van Gaal's wasn't bad and Ole's certainly, ahem, regressed to the mean this season.

And I always felt it was slightly disingenuous to say that Ole had inherited a crumbling team that languished in 6th. It was a team that had finished second just six months before he took over, with 81 points. And after over €300m spent, after losing only one key player of that 2017/18 team (Lukaku), we still look unlikely to match that 81 point season. We're on course for 78 as of now - and that's still decent and I'd be happy enough with it come the end of the season. But let's not pretend it's somehow baffling and outlandish to have little faith in Solskjaer's ability to take this team to the next level. He's done an OK job so far, stabilised the club after the toxicity of Mourinho, and made one inspired signing in Bruno Fernandes. Our performances are still a bit rubbish more often than not, and almost invariably awful if Bruno isn't on the pitch.

So yeah, being critical and unsure about Ole doesn't, as you suggest, stem from extrapolating one bad result. Quite the opposite: it's the refusal to extrapolate from decent runs of results because we've seen quite a few false dawns before, from Juanfield through Mourinho's big unbeaten run and 4-0s in 2017 all the way to Solskjaer's almost perfect record as a caretaker. All through these false dawns we almost always looked like a disjointed side and eventually the results regressed to the performances, as the pessimists always fear. The optimists believe that it will all click, if only we sign a couple more good players. And I really hope they're right, I just can't really believe it. But I don't think, contrary to what this thread suggests, that somehow makes me a worse supporter.
 

RedDevil@84

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It’s not about ignoring CLEAR signs of progress under Ole
Not picking on you, but many posters think of their viewpoints as "CLEAR" proof or something or other. In their minds, they are very much correct and the proof is right there for everyone to see.
Like many Ole outers are very clear in their minds that Ole does not have the capabilities to take this team forward. The team blows hot and cold and loses some easy games. Though I view it as a signs of a team which is work in progress, I can perfectly understand that someone else is just getting more convinced that Ole is not the right man to continue.
Same about individual players. Many people are absolutely convinced about the likes of Maguire, Shaw, Martial, VdB etc. Not everyone would share their clarity.

@Wumminator moaned about Jose for ages. In his mind, he has given Jose enough time. But it was incessant moaning by definition.
Majority of the posters were utterly convinced that only Jose was at fault and that he was absolutely wrong about Pogba/Martial. After couple of years, the number of people so convinced about Pogba/Martial dwindled.
 

elnorte

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Personally, I don't understand the people complaining about the process under Ole.

I came of age during that 2003-2006 run under Fergie, and initially joined this site in 2004 (though I was lurking since 2003). We sold Beckham and Veron and were trying to phase out Keane, Giggs etc with people like Bellion and Djemba-Djemba and thought Tim Howard might be the guy to finally replace Schmeichel. We also got some skinny little runt from Portfugal that summer. It didn't work and first Arsenal and Chelsea just took it to another level which we couldn't at the time reach. But this place was never toxic back then like it is now. We reacted to defeats matter of factly and didn't think the world was ending. We knew as a fanbase that we were building something, and even when it got really bad, like the 2005 CL group KO, or Rob Smyth's shredding his legacy at every turn article, this forum was in the thrall of something akin to a siege mentality. Where has that gone?

The rebuild then was a lot easier than this one now, and after 5 years of aimlessness, we're actually looking at building something that is for the long-term and sustainable, and what's more, it's one of our own who is doing it. That should be the perfect formula for people on this board to give the man his backing at every step, but somehow it isn't and I just don't understand.

He's done it under very difficult circumstances, with a board who have only ever backed him half heartedly despite him reaching every target that they had set him. He's also taken us from 6th, to 3rd and currently on to 2nd. We're closer now to the title (even if we take on board that Liverpool have dropped off their usual levels) than we have ever been before (fun fact; we were closer to the title in terms of points under LvG than we ever were under Jose, seeing how so many of the Ole outers and Jose acolytes like to talk about points totals). He's developed our style of play from the turgid stuff we used to see under Moyes, LvG and Jose. He's also made use of the kids and developed the talent that was already at the club and being wasted, and he's bought well when he's had the need and opportunity to do so.

Seriously, what more do the people who doubt him want? Just give the man in charge the benefit of the doubt and see where it leads, what is the harm in that? If it doesn't work out, then so be it, but if there's one person I am going to be willing to give that extra bit of rope to, it's Ole, and I have no qualms or concerns in doing so, or admitting to that.
And yet you remain as precocious as ever.
 

matt23

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Genuinely enjoyed reading this thread, some good points on both sides.

If you're here for a discussion about United great!

If you're here to bump a player performance thread with something sarcastic, or to quote someone's opinion from weeks ago in an attempt to make yourself look like an internet God - then I wish you'd feck off tbh.
 

Zen86

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Because I’m from Manchester & my family do. It’s not as simple as choosing a team, there was no choice. I couldn’t support another team, sure, I could pretend to, but deep down I’d still support United. It’s all I’ve ever known. Why do you support United? I feel like some on here would rather finish 2nd with a team of academy graduates then win with a team of foreigners. All I want is for United to be on top winning trophies. The nationality or background of the players is irrelevant to me.
I'm from the Manchester area and my family were reds, rather than blues.

I want us to win of course, but I also care about how we win. For me, part of supporting a club is buying into the history and traditions of the club, and the values the club historically has. It's the only thing that really gives me any kind of connection to the club. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of overpaid tw*ts kicking a ball around and I may as well be supporting a shithouse club like City instead.
 

RUCK4444

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Not picking on you, but many posters think of their viewpoints as "CLEAR" proof or something or other. In their minds, they are very much correct and the proof is right there for everyone to see.
Like many Ole outers are very clear in their minds that Ole does not have the capabilities to take this team forward. The team blows hot and cold and loses some easy games. Though I view it as a signs of a team which is work in progress, I can perfectly understand that someone else is just getting more convinced that Ole is not the right man to continue.
Same about individual players. Many people are absolutely convinced about the likes of Maguire, Shaw, Martial, VdB etc. Not everyone would share their clarity.

@Wumminator moaned about Jose for ages. In his mind, he has given Jose enough time. But it was incessant moaning by definition.
Majority of the posters were utterly convinced that only Jose was at fault and that he was absolutely wrong about Pogba/Martial. After couple of years, the number of people so convinced about Pogba/Martial dwindled.
No it's fine, I'm happy to talk about my opinion on it. I understand we have had a bumpy road under Ole but my overwhelming feeling is that many posters/fans have allowed outside influence to steer their opinion rather than actually sitting and really looking for the positives and weighing that against the negatives.

Ole-in posters get labelled Ole fanboys who view him through rose tinted glasses, which is an absolute nonsense. Yes he's a 'legend' but it's Ole, it's not as if this is Cantona we are talking about, nobody worshipped him so much as a player that they are happy for him to run the club into the ground. Literally nobody.

The balance between Ole-in posts and Ole-out posts are glaring. I've looked at this objectively, it's not a case of confirmation bias... just look at the extreme views (totally unfounded in most cases) by posters who want Ole sacked after we loose or drop points, it's vile. He's been called clueless, a PE teacher, the worst manager in the league. Compare that to what 99% of posters who would be classed as Ole-in post. None of them post extreme views or profess that Ole is the next SAF or better than Pep/Klopp, speaking for myself all I do is highlight what positives there have been that has meant that I remain behind the manager.

Some are saying the OP is a WUM, maybe it is, either way there is a meaning to the word 'support' and many posters need to look it up.
 
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Hansi Fick

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It’s clearly a WUM and a LOT have been sucked in.

The OP actively started threads and contributed to the negativity surrounding the last manager. It doesn’t really matter what your perceived reasoning was.

It can only be a WUM with that in mind. I don’t think it’s worth the 9 page argument.
Honestly, it makes perfect sense to have been negative about the last manager and then to be more positive now. Nothing about that is inherently WUMmy or inconsistent.
 

Wumminator

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Honestly, it makes perfect sense to have been negative about the last manager and then to be more positive now. Nothing about that is inherently WUMmy or inconsistent.
I honestly can’t get why people don’t get this.
To also say I was incessantly negative about Jose is ridiculous. Once again, people haven’t managed to link to any overly negative posts I see.
 

RUCK4444

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I honestly can’t get why people don’t get this.
To also say I was incessantly negative about Jose is ridiculous. Once again, people haven’t managed to link to any overly negative posts I see.
Anybody who can't see the difference between toxic Mourinho management and Ole's time here so far is going to be severely lacking in the ability to hold a rational conversation tbh.
 

Maluco

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Honestly, it makes perfect sense to have been negative about the last manager and then to be more positive now. Nothing about that is inherently WUMmy or inconsistent.
I honestly can’t get why people don’t get this.
To also say I was incessantly negative about Jose is ridiculous. Once again, people haven’t managed to link to any overly negative posts I see.
Supporting the club is supporting the club. You either trust those in power and trust the institution and give them your unwavering support, or you give leeway to give your backing, passionately support the team and criticize what you see as potential missteps.

To say that fans should have unwavering support of Ole, while suggesting that it was ok to critique what you personally didn’t like before, is ridiculous.

A lot of people questioning Ole and worrying about the club were not lambasting him or the players, but somehow everyone who has ever been worried about having him in charge have all been lumped together and scolded like children.

It’s hypocritical and you can’t see that, only because you feel that you were correct and others are wrong.
 

Maluco

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Anybody who can't see the difference between toxic Mourinho management and Ole's time here so far is going to be severely lacking in the ability to hold a rational conversation tbh.
I think Ole is better for the club too, but that doesn’t mean I can make sweeping generalizations about others and their opinions.
 

Grande

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Funniest thing is. In the 80’s before the Internet etc and the not so bright times for trophies. Fans wanted Fergie sacked. So no one on here tell me you can’t complain when support this club. Bunch of hypocrites.
You mean that the same fans who wanted Fergie sacked are now asking other fans to support the team?

Or different fans? What is hypocritical?

Did the ‘
I don’t know because we wouldn’t be Manchester United anymore & we’d be playing in the Irish league so it wouldn’t be the same club. I’d probably just stop watching football. The type of players I like are dying out anyway, we’re in the pace & power age now. You barely see flair players who make you leap out of your seat any more. I definitely wouldn’t support City.
An aside, but don’t you think that’s as much to do with age? The eighties were my first era, and Atkinson was one for that, but when I see Bruno, Rashford, Pogba and Martial, there is more regular flair in them than what even Jesper Olsen, Arnold Mühren, Gordon Strachan, Peter Barnes, Norman Whiteside and Bryan Robson produced. As much as I love them, they were as much about power, stamina, intensity and pace as they were about flair, elegance, panache, the genial etc. It was exciting on their day, but I’d argue our most creative players of today have and show more flair. What say you?
 

Olecurls99

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That's a strawman. We are, and indeed have been for seven years, very far from being perfect in every game. No one expects that yet people keep getting challenged with this ridiculous line even while we only ever fight for top 4 year after year. And regarding your Fergie question: remember the static, slow motion zombie passing thread? People did question the quality of performances in the latter years of Fergie reign, and I think rightly so: the decline started there, we simply didn't do enough, weren't proactive enough in preserving our status as one of the best teams in the world, for whatever reason.

Nobody wants Arteta or Lampard to take over United so that's sort of a moot point. Lampard isn't rated by... anyone, really, at least on the Caf. Arteta has his backers, oddly enough, but not a lot of them. Rodgers doesn't really belong in this conversation as he manages a club with the fraction of the resources available to the manager of Chelsea or Manchester United. And no one really wants him either, though that's because of the Liverpool connection rather than anything else. Well, and maybe because of him being a right tosser with the envelope nonsense and whatnot.

I'm not even sure what you mean here. Van Gaal had a points-per-game record of 1.81, Mourinho's was 1.97. Solskjaer's right now is 1.9. He's right in the middle between the two. Or do you mean their big game records? Because Van Gaal's wasn't bad and Ole's certainly, ahem, regressed to the mean this season.

And I always felt it was slightly disingenuous to say that Ole had inherited a crumbling team that languished in 6th. It was a team that had finished second just six months before he took over, with 81 points. And after over €300m spent, after losing only one key player of that 2017/18 team (Lukaku), we still look unlikely to match that 81 point season. We're on course for 78 as of now - and that's still decent and I'd be happy enough with it come the end of the season. But let's not pretend it's somehow baffling and outlandish to have little faith in Solskjaer's ability to take this team to the next level. He's done an OK job so far, stabilised the club after the toxicity of Mourinho, and made one inspired signing in Bruno Fernandes. Our performances are still a bit rubbish more often than not, and almost invariably awful if Bruno isn't on the pitch.

So yeah, being critical and unsure about Ole doesn't, as you suggest, stem from extrapolating one bad result. Quite the opposite: it's the refusal to extrapolate from decent runs of results because we've seen quite a few false dawns before, from Juanfield through Mourinho's big unbeaten run and 4-0s in 2017 all the way to Solskjaer's almost perfect record as a caretaker. All through these false dawns we almost always looked like a disjointed side and eventually the results regressed to the performances, as the pessimists always fear. The optimists believe that it will all click, if only we sign a couple more good players. And I really hope they're right, I just can't really believe it. But I don't think, contrary to what this thread suggests, that somehow makes me a worse supporter.
All fair points. Supporters are allowed not feel good about certain players or the manager. They're even allowed actively not like the manager.

I couldn't stand Mourinho by the end, his Man United aren't a big club nonsense drove me over the edge after putting up with the dross he served up on the pitch.

Supporters just have to stick by their opinions and accept and remind themselves that they were wrong sometimes. For example if Ole went on to win the league, I hope a lot of people on here would hold their hands up and maybe defer to people who supported him. That would only be fair in my opinion.

Ole had to break up that 2nd place squad by the way. They were playing sinfully bad football so to suggest that he's at roughly the same place that we were at in 2018 is disingenuous.
 
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RUCK4444

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I think Ole is better for the club too, but that doesn’t mean I can make sweeping generalizations about others and their opinions.
What sweeping generalisation have I made?

That they are ignorant and are putting their feelings and agendas before the clear progress we are making as a club?

If so then yes I’ve definitely formed that opinion of many.
 

RUCK4444

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Funniest thing is. In the 80’s before the Internet etc and the not so bright times for trophies. Fans wanted Fergie sacked. So no one on here tell me you can’t complain when support this club. Bunch of hypocrites.
What’s that even mean?

There are moaning idiots and there will always be moaning idiots?
 

Sweet Square

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It's really not that difficult tbh, just support the manager until they get the sack and keep the moaning/complaining to a minimum because overall it makes the forum a shite place to visit.
 

Forevergiggs1

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That's just nonsense, most of the Ole in posts on this forum are logical. I have said since he came in that he isn't being judged as a legend, he's being judged as a Man Utd manager and amongst reasonable fans, he's done a brilliant job so far. You seem to be ignoring the absolutely awful team and atmosphere Ole inherited from the toxic one.
Why's it nonsense? Can you honestly tell me pre Bruno, Ole looked like the one to take us forward? He looked so out of his depth he almost drowned on various occasions. Our football was terrible but still people gave him their undying support which was based on pure blind faith rather than logical thought. I'm absolutely positive if we had another manager who wasn't called Ole a lot more people would of been calling for his head.

I'm not denying he has done a good job after the mess Mou left but speaking for myself I still don't think he's the one to take us to PL and CL success and wumminator is right in certain aspects of OP with some of the names Ole has been called which to be fair isn't a reflection of the great majority. If a few upsets the positivity then it really is as simple as stick them on ignore.

Where I don't agree with him is in not criticising certain aspects of the club or players because if I do I'm not a true supporter. That's why these type of threads brings up a lot of negativity. We all know Lingard is shit so why not just say it? Because he's an academy player? Martial and Rashford are 2 very frustrating players and to be fair to wumminator again terms like gashford are bang out of order but surely if any player has a run of bad games we're allowed to say so? Sometimes frustrations do run over especially in games like Leipzig where AWB got absolutely hammered. Was it right? Well that's a person's own personal opinion and not for someone to say we should all behave like sheep because if we don't we shouldn't be United supporters.
 

Maluco

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What sweeping generalisation have I made?

That they are ignorant and are putting their feelings and agendas before the clear progress we are making as a club?

If so then yes I’ve definitely formed that opinion of many.
I wasn’t talking about you mate, just the idea behind the OP. Not even the poster himself. I think it’s terrible when people call Ole names or go overboard in criticism of players, but there is nothing wrong with a healthy skepticism when supporting a club.
 

rotherham_red

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That's a strawman. We are, and indeed have been for seven years, very far from being perfect in every game. No one expects that yet people keep getting challenged with this ridiculous line even while we only ever fight for top 4 year after year. And regarding your Fergie question: remember the static, slow motion zombie passing thread? People did question the quality of performances in the latter years of Fergie reign, and I think rightly so: the decline started there, we simply didn't do enough, weren't proactive enough in preserving our status as one of the best teams in the world, for whatever reason.

Nobody wants Arteta or Lampard to take over United so that's sort of a moot point. Lampard isn't rated by... anyone, really, at least on the Caf. Arteta has his backers, oddly enough, but not a lot of them. Rodgers doesn't really belong in this conversation as he manages a club with the fraction of the resources available to the manager of Chelsea or Manchester United. And no one really wants him either, though that's because of the Liverpool connection rather than anything else. Well, and maybe because of him being a right tosser with the envelope nonsense and whatnot.

I'm not even sure what you mean here. Van Gaal had a points-per-game record of 1.81, Mourinho's was 1.97. Solskjaer's right now is 1.9. He's right in the middle between the two. Or do you mean their big game records? Because Van Gaal's wasn't bad and Ole's certainly, ahem, regressed to the mean this season.

And I always felt it was slightly disingenuous to say that Ole had inherited a crumbling team that languished in 6th. It was a team that had finished second just six months before he took over, with 81 points. And after over €300m spent, after losing only one key player of that 2017/18 team (Lukaku), we still look unlikely to match that 81 point season. We're on course for 78 as of now - and that's still decent and I'd be happy enough with it come the end of the season. But let's not pretend it's somehow baffling and outlandish to have little faith in Solskjaer's ability to take this team to the next level. He's done an OK job so far, stabilised the club after the toxicity of Mourinho, and made one inspired signing in Bruno Fernandes. Our performances are still a bit rubbish more often than not, and almost invariably awful if Bruno isn't on the pitch.

So yeah, being critical and unsure about Ole doesn't, as you suggest, stem from extrapolating one bad result. Quite the opposite: it's the refusal to extrapolate from decent runs of results because we've seen quite a few false dawns before, from Juanfield through Mourinho's big unbeaten run and 4-0s in 2017 all the way to Solskjaer's almost perfect record as a caretaker. All through these false dawns we almost always looked like a disjointed side and eventually the results regressed to the performances, as the pessimists always fear. The optimists believe that it will all click, if only we sign a couple more good players. And I really hope they're right, I just can't really believe it. But I don't think, contrary to what this thread suggests, that somehow makes me a worse supporter.
My friend, we haven't even attained two consecutive years of Top 4 since Fergie left. So please tell me, why are there complaints when it is looking like there are clear and actual signs of progress? That was the original question, and what I instead got from your contemporary was a wall of text complaining about such fatuous concepts of 'Top Reds' and him strangely framing himself to something akin to Julian Assange. I then responded in kind and asked him what he wanted from the team under Ole. He hasn't yet responded so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. But irrespective, my original question was a pretty clear one with nary a hint of a straw within it, so please, do enlighten me with your response.

And re the threads that you mentioned, I do remember them, but if you actually read my post properly, I said I didn't see the caf tear itself apart back then like it has now. They didn't take over the caf for months and years at a time like the infamous Ole threads have. I certainly didn't see anyone opining openly whether it was time to sack Fergie and have thousands of responses in its attached poll.

Yes, we're unsuccessful and have been for a while, but the depths to which we have fell are much deeper than any quick fix solution will sort out. The rot was deep and it is still in the process of being fixed. We would have been much further along if Ole was able to bring Bruno in the summer of 2019 and if he was able to get at least two of his first choice targets this summer, but the reality is, we didn't and EVEN STILL (despite hundreds of posts to the contrary at the end of the summer) Ole and the team have managed to salvage the season and have us on a good keel. When the Sancho deal didn't happen, almost everyone to a tee was saying we wouldn't get Top 4. Most of them, I may add, were people who wanted Ole gone. Now those same people are now talking about it being a failure if he doesn't challenge for the title. Do you not see the inherent contradiction in their statements?

It's not a moot point because Ole has been perpetually compared to Lampard and Arteta. Rodgers likewise, has been in the job at a similar time and started from a similar base as Ole had done with a team that has won the title much more recently than Utd have. So it is a fair observation to make. I'm not sure why it's something that rankles you, but like I said to b28, you do you.

What I mean is the big game record. Though your perhaps mischievous remark of it regressing to the mean is perhaps a little misguided, considering Ole has beaten Leipzig and PSG this season and had more than just last season's big game results in his favour.

That 2nd place is perhaps the biggest misnomer of them all. The underlying metrics had us overperforming to a significant degree and in truth it was only the brilliance of DDG which kept us there. I mean sure, you can hold on to the 2nd place and what little memories of it you have, but from someone who went home and away that season, it was perhaps the most turgid "title race" I'd ever seen us involved in. Even the 4-0s in the early stages of that season flattered us, and I can barely remember a goal or two worth remembering from that run. And I go back to it, but LvG had less of a points difference between himself and 1st place than Jose did. And another thing is, the team we have now is not the team Jose had. Ole pretty much took a sledgehammer to that squad and built his team around those players that Jose either didn't rate,. didn't want, or actively wanted to sell. So again, it's a bit of a one-sided reading of the situation you have there. And irrespective of that 2nd place, the team had finished 6th the season before Ole's first season and if it wasn't for Ole and his caretaker stewardship, we'd have likely finished much, much worse than 6th.

Also, don't you think just putting the gross amount of transfer money spent is a bit disingenuous? I mean, at least 100m of that was from sales that he made with around 11 players being sold/let go and having only bought 6 players in to replace them from outside the club? He also didn't just lose one key player. He also lost Herrera who was the glue in that midfield during his initial caretaker run. There's also the fact that the players he let go were crucial parts of that squad which finished in that 2nd place that you were oh so impressed by and championing (I'm looking at you Fellaini, Young, Valencia, Smalling, Lukaku, Herrera, and arguably Sanchez). So, which is it, that team should be getting 4th as a matter of fact? (that despite Jose never getting Top 4 in consecutive seasons with said squad whose achievement was so good that you saw fit to say that Ole had just about met expectations) or did Ole do a good job in totally restructuring the team with a minimum of buys? Cos whichever way you look at it, Ole has done well: he bought well when he needed to, and he's made the most of the talents who were already at the club - something which Jose said was impossible for some of them.

He also had to do without his best midfielder in Pogba for 2 3rds of that season, as well as long injuries to Rashford and Martial. The instant those players all came back in to a settled team with Bruno, we actually looked a unit. Ole took a massive gamble with his outgoings and lack of incomings in 2019/20, but you can't say that it didn't come off. Bruno is a big reason why of course, but if we were as horrendously coached as some among your number would have us believe, there would be no way that Bruno would have thrived in the way he has. The truth quite simply is, Ole and the coaches had developed a system and identified that Bruno was the perfect fit for that system. So again, credit is due to above all the player, but also the management. The only shame is that he didn't come in at the start of that season. And the key thing for the future is to ensure that the squad building continues apace next season and beyond, and that Ole gets the RW, CB, DM and Striker that he needs over the course of the next two summer transfer windows.

The false dawns and decent runs followed by runs without a win haven't been there for the past 11 months and 33 league matches. It's more than just a flash in the pan. Which is again, where my (what you would term strawman) question of what exactly people want from this team is coming from, because if 3 league losses in the course of 30+ matches isn't enough for a young team that's growing, then seriously speaking, what is? Because quite simply, the metrics don't agree with you on almost every objective and subjective level that it will all somehow collapse upon itself again.
 

Plymouth Red

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You mean that the same fans who wanted Fergie sacked are now asking other fans to support the team?

Or different fans? What is hypocritical?

Did the ‘


An aside, but don’t you think that’s as much to do with age? The eighties were my first era, and Atkinson was one for that, but when I see Bruno, Rashford, Pogba and Martial, there is more regular flair in them than what even Jesper Olsen, Arnold Mühren, Gordon Strachan, Peter Barnes, Norman Whiteside and Bryan Robson produced. As much as I love them, they were as much about power, stamina, intensity and pace as they were about flair, elegance, panache, the genial etc. It was exciting on their day, but I’d argue our most creative players of today have and show more flair. What say you?
I started following the team in the early 60s so I have seen a fair number of flair players, workhorses, warriors, disappointments, pleasant surprises and icons pull on the jersey.
When I look at old match footage or think about games I attended, I smile at the difference in several key factors.
Pitch quality is obvious and I’m pretty sure today’s best dribblers would not be able to replicate their skills on the ploughed surfaces of bygone days.
Refereeing standards are another huge difference. I went to matches where a ref like Moss would have shown the red card to a third of the players or more. If you were a young, skilful winger (such as George Best), you’d get a few proper kicks early doors to put you in your place. Today’s flair players get much more protection than was the case.
A further key difference is fitness levels. Quite simply no comparison between then and now.
One final small point is the construction of the ball itself. Technology has made control easier and there’s again no comparison between an old school saturated laced leather ball and today’s computer-generated creations.
Taken in the round, I think all of these factors make it nigh on impossible to make a meaningful comparison across the decades.
 

Bilbo

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It's really not that difficult tbh, just support the manager until they get the sack and keep the moaning/complaining to a minimum because overall it makes the forum a shite place to visit.
This is the crux of it really, at least for me anyway. Redcafe doesn't do anything to deter my enjoyment of a game because I wouldnt ever come on here.

This is still my go-to place to read other fans opinions and discuss the football though, and in this area the Cafe has sadly become a shadow of its former self. Lots of strong posters have left and lots of others seem to avoid the football forums now, mainly because of the general tone, and that is a shame. The Ole in/out thread did a lot of damage.
 

Wumminator

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This is the crux of it really, at least for me anyway. Redcafe doesn't do anything to deter my enjoyment of a game because I wouldnt ever come on here.

This is still my go-to place to read other fans opinions and discuss the football though, and in this area the Cafe has sadly become a shadow of its former self. Lots of strong posters have left and lots of others seem to avoid the football forums now, mainly because of the general tone, and that is a shame. The Ole in/out thread did a lot of damage.
Again - thanks for your contributions. I try and get the football forums back to their peak... but it is hard!
 

Random Task

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Basically in a nutshell it’s about supporting your club through thick and thin.

Not being a weak b*tch and moaning all day every day on a forum because we aren’t winning the league in total ignorance of the fact we dropped in quality MASSIVELY since SAF left and that it will take time to get back there, in the most competitive league in the world with the two best managers in the world directly above us.

It’s not about ignoring CLEAR signs of progress under Ole through pure snobbish mentality, because your mate in the pub winds you up calling him useless and out of his depth.

It’s about having a bit of a backbone, like our away fans who sing not only when we are winning.
It's easy to show faith in a cause you believe in with all your heart. It's not quite so easy if you have lingering doubts as to its success. In the case of the latter, would you not be showing your support of the club by voicing those concerns?

Where one fan sees progress, another sees the opposite. How do you determine which party is correct when results and performances have been up and down umpteen times throughout Ole's tenure?
 

lysglimt

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I don't necessarily agree with those opinions either, although they are justifiable to a degree - or at least they were a month into the season when the situation was concerning. Like Wum says above, context is everything.

I don't believe there is a right or wrong way to express your support for the club. So long as your opinions are sincere and with the interests of the club firmly at heart, you are supporting the club in the right way. Whether those opinions are negative or positive does not come into it.
I dont agree with them - but there is acceptable criticism (even if not correct) - and attacks that cant be justified. Lots of the stuff that were said about OGS here when things were at their worst, should in my opinion ended with a warning or a ban - they were that bad.
 

hobbers

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Maybe I'm getting caught up on the details but I don't really see how internet forums enter the realm of football support at all.

You can support a club financially in many ways. Buying tickets, merchandise, pies, programmes, tv subscriptions etc. You can support the players vocally at the ground to inspire them.

What is typed on Red Cafe, good or bad? We're in the realms fandom rather than support on here as we're not helping United by being here.. Online behaviour can affect things if people were going on a player's Twitter or Instagram feeds and calling them a cnut directly, which has happened. While I wouldn't want to see someone being quite so brutal on here I don't see how it would matter in terms of actually affecting United.

Maybe you think this place is more imporatant than it is?
Exactly this. The point of any online forum is to discuss and debate. It's peak delusion to think how you behave on a fan forum matters at all in respect of the club. You could be the toppiest of top reds or the most negative nancy poster imaginable. Either way it makes zero difference in pursuit of the club's aims.

And if some people cant handle even the sight of a negative viewpoint, or an opinion they dont agree with, well, a non-RAWK online forum probably isn't the best place for them. .
 

Teja

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I'm not even sure what you mean here. Van Gaal had a points-per-game record of 1.81, Mourinho's was 1.97. Solskjaer's right now is 1.9.
I think your entire argument (and what I think our basis should be for sacking / keeping Ole) rests on this. I'd propose that due to various reasons largely out of his control (Pogba, Rashford having lengthy layoffs and Pereira, Lingard getting extended runs in the squad at #10), data before 2020 can be disregarded since that will hopefully never happen again.

Since signing Bruno, Ole has a PPG of 2.16 (with a large enough sample size), so that puts him on track for ~82 pts per season, which I think is more representative of his capability and is coincidentally is about the same as Jose's best season here.

Couple of things (we will probably disagree on):
  • 100pt seasons are done - I don't think Liverpool / City will hit that anymore. We'll revert to something like 90pts for the PL title.
  • Going from 82pts -> 90pts seems do-able in theory but is going to be very hard to do that in practice. At a minimum, we'll be a solid top four side consistently for the next 2-3 years.
  • There still remain clear areas where adding a bit of quality can significantly improve the squad. Specifically RW has been a gaping hole and a WC attacker will push up pts totals and can have Bruno levels of impact if we get it right. Of course, this is easier said than done and we can have a Havertz / Werner / Pepe like moment and be stuck with an expensive, underperforming signing.
  • Getting a new manager in with this squad will not suddenly transform them into a 90 pts per season team, there will be at least a year or two of adapting and by that time this squad will be peaking and we'll be looking to sell / rebuild again.
 

Sweet Square

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This is the crux of it really, at least for me anyway. Redcafe doesn't do anything to deter my enjoyment of a game because I wouldnt ever come on here.

This is still my go-to place to read other fans opinions and discuss the football though, and in this area the Cafe has sadly become a shadow of its former self. Lots of strong posters have left and lots of others seem to avoid the football forums now, mainly because of the general tone, and that is a shame. The Ole in/out thread did a lot of damage.
A lot of people seem to use this place to vent their anger/dislike/disappointment but forget that the forum is full of other people who will read their posts. At the end of the day this place is suppose to be a bit of a laugh(Although I'm sure I've annoyed the piss out of people over the years on here). The negativity(Which is completely unnecessary given the current form of the team)really does have a bad effect on the general tone of the forum.

Hopefully if we can win tomorrow and against Pool things might start to pick up again.
 

RUCK4444

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It's easy to show faith in a cause you believe in with all your heart. It's not quite so easy if you have lingering doubts as to its success. In the case of the latter, would you not be showing your support of the club by voicing those concerns?

Where one fan sees progress, another sees the opposite. How do you determine which party is correct when results and performances have been up and down umpteen times throughout Ole's tenure?
Yeah listen you can voice concerns and even question the club/manager but what you should always do is support them. Support being the key word.

You see widespread disrespect for the man here, even if you don’t believe in his credentials it’s a disgrace.

Many of the posts I’m referring to you would expect to hear on an opposition club forum.

In answer to your last sentence, and this is key, you have to form your own set of boxes that Ole needs to tick...

I did this at the start of his tenure and he’s ticked almost all of them under extreme pressure and after taking over a dejected unbalanced mess of a team from Mourinho. He had it ALL to do.

You have to apply logic and common sense though, if one of those boxes was ‘win the league within two years of arriving’ then your an idiot. That was never going to happen.

I chose to focus on things like the below:
•Style of play
•Youth development
•Attacking intent
•Recruitment
•Clearing of deadwood
•Man management

I chose these as I felt (and still strongly feel) they are vital to putting our club back on the correct path.

I saw that he did well at all these things, coupled with an excellent run at the start and multiple times since then culminating in a 3rd place finish. Dotted with patches of poor runs as well, but the feeling has always been there that he is close... closer than we’ve been since SAF left to getting our Manchester United back again.
 
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Siorac

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My friend, we haven't even attained two consecutive years of Top 4 since Fergie left. So please tell me, why are there complaints when it is looking like there are clear and actual signs of progress? That was the original question, and what I instead got from your contemporary was a wall of text complaining about such fatuous concepts of 'Top Reds' and him strangely framing himself to something akin to Julian Assange. I then responded in kind and asked him what he wanted from the team under Ole. He hasn't yet responded so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. But irrespective, my original question was a pretty clear one with nary a hint of a straw within it, so please, do enlighten me with your response.

And re the threads that you mentioned, I do remember them, but if you actually read my post properly, I said I didn't see the caf tear itself apart back then like it has now. They didn't take over the caf for months and years at a time like the infamous Ole threads have. I certainly didn't see anyone opining openly whether it was time to sack Fergie and have thousands of responses in its attached poll.

Yes, we're unsuccessful and have been for a while, but the depths to which we have fell are much deeper than any quick fix solution will sort out. The rot was deep and it is still in the process of being fixed. We would have been much further along if Ole was able to bring Bruno in the summer of 2019 and if he was able to get at least two of his first choice targets this summer, but the reality is, we didn't and EVEN STILL (despite hundreds of posts to the contrary at the end of the summer) Ole and the team have managed to salvage the season and have us on a good keel. When the Sancho deal didn't happen, almost everyone to a tee was saying we wouldn't get Top 4. Most of them, I may add, were people who wanted Ole gone. Now those same people are now talking about it being a failure if he doesn't challenge for the title. Do you not see the inherent contradiction in their statements?

It's not a moot point because Ole has been perpetually compared to Lampard and Arteta. Rodgers likewise, has been in the job at a similar time and started from a similar base as Ole had done with a team that has won the title much more recently than Utd have. So it is a fair observation to make. I'm not sure why it's something that rankles you, but like I said to b28, you do you.

What I mean is the big game record. Though your perhaps mischievous remark of it regressing to the mean is perhaps a little misguided, considering Ole has beaten Leipzig and PSG this season and had more than just last season's big game results in his favour.

That 2nd place is perhaps the biggest misnomer of them all. The underlying metrics had us overperforming to a significant degree and in truth it was only the brilliance of DDG which kept us there. I mean sure, you can hold on to the 2nd place and what little memories of it you have, but from someone who went home and away that season, it was perhaps the most turgid "title race" I'd ever seen us involved in. Even the 4-0s in the early stages of that season flattered us, and I can barely remember a goal or two worth remembering from that run. And I go back to it, but LvG had less of a points difference between himself and 1st place than Jose did. And another thing is, the team we have now is not the team Jose had. Ole pretty much took a sledgehammer to that squad and built his team around those players that Jose either didn't rate,. didn't want, or actively wanted to sell. So again, it's a bit of a one-sided reading of the situation you have there. And irrespective of that 2nd place, the team had finished 6th the season before Ole's first season and if it wasn't for Ole and his caretaker stewardship, we'd have likely finished much, much worse than 6th.

Also, don't you think just putting the gross amount of transfer money spent is a bit disingenuous? I mean, at least 100m of that was from sales that he made with around 11 players being sold/let go and having only bought 6 players in to replace them from outside the club? He also didn't just lose one key player. He also lost Herrera who was the glue in that midfield during his initial caretaker run. There's also the fact that the players he let go were crucial parts of that squad which finished in that 2nd place that you were oh so impressed by and championing (I'm looking at you Fellaini, Young, Valencia, Smalling, Lukaku, Herrera, and arguably Sanchez). So, which is it, that team should be getting 4th as a matter of fact? (that despite Jose never getting Top 4 in consecutive seasons with said squad whose achievement was so good that you saw fit to say that Ole had just about met expectations) or did Ole do a good job in totally restructuring the team with a minimum of buys? Cos whichever way you look at it, Ole has done well: he bought well when he needed to, and he's made the most of the talents who were already at the club - something which Jose said was impossible for some of them.

He also had to do without his best midfielder in Pogba for 2 3rds of that season, as well as long injuries to Rashford and Martial. The instant those players all came back in to a settled team with Bruno, we actually looked a unit. Ole took a massive gamble with his outgoings and lack of incomings in 2019/20, but you can't say that it didn't come off. Bruno is a big reason why of course, but if we were as horrendously coached as some among your number would have us believe, there would be no way that Bruno would have thrived in the way he has. The truth quite simply is, Ole and the coaches had developed a system and identified that Bruno was the perfect fit for that system. So again, credit is due to above all the player, but also the management. The only shame is that he didn't come in at the start of that season. And the key thing for the future is to ensure that the squad building continues apace next season and beyond, and that Ole gets the RW, CB, DM and Striker that he needs over the course of the next two summer transfer windows.

The false dawns and decent runs followed by runs without a win haven't been there for the past 11 months and 33 league matches. It's more than just a flash in the pan. Which is again, where my (what you would term strawman) question of what exactly people want from this team is coming from, because if 3 league losses in the course of 30+ matches isn't enough for a young team that's growing, then seriously speaking, what is? Because quite simply, the metrics don't agree with you on almost every objective and subjective level that it will all somehow collapse upon itself again.
Your Rodgers observation doesn't 'rankle' me at all, I just find it a bit irrelevant. Rodgers is managing Leicester City, a club with a revenue of less than a third of ours. It's not the standard we should compare ourselves against.

As for Mourinho's second place: I fully agree that we mostly played awful football and the final points total flattered us big time. I hated Mourinho's football and quickly became sick of the man himself, too. The point, however, is that Ole inherited a top 4 squad and turned it into a... top 4 squad; it's now a younger top 4 squad with slightly better potential but it's not a huge, unquestionable achievement as you portray it to be. And there ARE some parallels with that 2017/18 seasons: we are, once again, overperforming our metrics in terms of points. Understat's expected points table has us at 26.70 points, which is far worse than the actual record of 33 points, and much closer to our standard of last season and the season before that. Only Southampton and Everton have been overperforming by a bigger margin so far. Liverpool are pretty much exactly where they should be and City (and Chelsea) underperform.

Ole's big game record isn't significantly better than that of his predecessors (or at all, really, at this point), with the exception of Moyes who was just a disaster on every level. That he beat Leipzig and PSG isn't exactly a great argument, considering he then proceeded to lose to both and exit the CL. So my slightly mischievous remark was meant to correct your assertion that somehow the other two can't even get close to him in this regard when in reality, they very much can, and there's actually very little between them at this point.

And irrespective of that 2nd place, the team had finished 6th the season before Ole's first season and if it wasn't for Ole and his caretaker stewardship, we'd have likely finished much, much worse than 6th.
This is very much debatable, by the way: when Mourinho got sacked - which, again, was long overdue and I'm not in any way trying to claim he should have stayed; he should have been fired after the Sevilla press conference, in fact -, we were... 6th.

What I'm trying to get at is that it's not at all undeniable that we have made great progress. Ole has indeed revamped the squad quite a bit - but it remains to be seen if it yields better results than Van Gaal's gutting of the squad. So far, in my opinion, he hasn't achieved anything that we haven't seen from either of his predecessors and no matter how much you or Bilbo or sammsky try to claim that it is now definitely a steep, unstoppable upward trajectory, the fact is you base that optimistic prediction on little more than, well, optimism and faith. And you shouldn't disparage people who don't share the same optimism and faith because they have very good reasons for their own pessimistic outlook. Just as we had good reasons for pessimism when Mourinho finished second - which I never championed so stop putting words in my mouth, if you would -, even though the optimists of that era kept telling us that there were clear and actual signs of progress (I was sick of hearing how we beat every team in the league at least once, and scored the most goals in the post-Fergie era). I don't think the situation is that much different, frankly, expect that this time our manager is a much nicer guy who doesn't intentionally set out to ruin football matches for everyone involved.

Again, the most important point is that there is plenty of room for debate here and those being negative about the prospects of the team aren't being ridiculous and out of line, nor are they necessarily toxic as the OP seems to suggest.
 

Siorac

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I think your entire argument (and what I think our basis should be for sacking / keeping Ole) rests on this. I'd propose that due to various reasons largely out of his control (Pogba, Rashford having lengthy layoffs and Pereira, Lingard getting extended runs in the squad at #10), data before 2020 can be disregarded since that will hopefully never happen again.

Since signing Bruno, Ole has a PPG of 2.16 (with a large enough sample size), so that puts him on track for ~82 pts per season, which I think is more representative of his capability and is coincidentally is about the same as Jose's best season here.

Couple of things (we will probably disagree on):
  • 100pt seasons are done - I don't think Liverpool / City will hit that anymore. We'll revert to something like 90pts for the PL title.
  • Going from 82pts -> 90pts seems do-able in theory but is going to be very hard to do that in practice. At a minimum, we'll be a solid top four side consistently for the next 2-3 years.
  • There still remain clear areas where adding a bit of quality can significantly improve the squad. Specifically RW has been a gaping hole and a WC attacker will push up pts totals and can have Bruno levels of impact if we get it right. Of course, this is easier said than done and we can have a Havertz / Werner / Pepe like moment and be stuck with an expensive, underperforming signing.
  • Getting a new manager in with this squad will not suddenly transform them into a 90 pts per season team, there will be at least a year or two of adapting and by that time this squad will be peaking and we'll be looking to sell / rebuild again.
What I disagree on is the 'going from 82 points to 90 points' - and I don't disagree that in theory that should be do-able, I just find it almost ridiculously presumptuous because, well, let's see that 82-point finish first. A certain PPG in an arbitrary set of fixtures might be used as a predictor of future results but it's an unreliable method of doing so. It's by no means a guarantee. It's my go-to example but Arsenal were the top team in the 2015 calendar year, with 81 points in 38 games. They never got close to that in an actual league season, though. Based on our underlying metrics and our performances, I certainly don't see us as an 80+ point team. We're a low 70s team, really, on an exceptional run of results thanks to the incredible contributions of mostly one player.
 

Amerifan

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Great post.

I don’t have a problem with individuals who focus on the negative, but I have no time for them. Negativity is just massively boring to me. I don’t know how people finish typing a lengthy complaint post without putting themselves to sleep.

I would spend a lot more time on here if there were more threads about which players were underrated rather than overrated, the bright spots from a loss rather than which players to blame, and collectively enjoying the wins rather than picking apart the team for not winning a certain way. Apparently I’m in the minority on that, which is cool, I have other ways to support my team.
 

Wumminator

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Great post.

I don’t have a problem with individuals who focus on the negative, but I have no time for them. Negativity is just massively boring to me. I don’t know how people finish typing a lengthy complaint post without putting themselves to sleep.

I would spend a lot more time on here if there were more threads about which players were underrated rather than overrated, the bright spots from a loss rather than which players to blame, and collectively enjoying the wins rather than picking apart the team for not winning a certain way. Apparently I’m in the minority on that, which is cool, I have other ways to support my team.
This thread is proving that you are actually in the majority. It’s been refreshing to read so many people agreeing.
 

Teja

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What I disagree on is the 'going from 82 points to 90 points' - and I don't disagree that in theory that should be do-able, I just find it almost ridiculously presumptuous because, well, let's see that 82-point finish first. A certain PPG in an arbitrary set of fixtures might be used as a predictor of future results but it's an unreliable method of doing so. It's by no means a guarantee. It's my go-to example but Arsenal were the top team in the 2015 calendar year, with 81 points in 38 games. They never got close to that in an actual league season, though. Based on our underlying metrics and our performances, I certainly don't see us as an 80+ point team. We're a low 70s team, really, on an exceptional run of results thanks to the incredible contributions of mostly one player.
I mean even under Jose we were never really close to the title that year. IMO one whole year's worth of data is meaningful, if that puts us on course for an 80+ pt season I'm happy to take that at face value - it's not as if we're extrapolating from 5-10 games. Ole's most likely not getting sacked this season, so we can make an even more informed judgement come summer.

Hypothetically, if we finish 3rd at 80+ pts this season and we get Sancho in the summer, would you be okay with Ole for another season?
 

Mainoldo

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You mean that the same fans who wanted Fergie sacked are now asking other fans to support the team?

Or different fans? What is hypocritical?
I couldn’t tell you. But all I know is football fans moan. A lot of people need to deal with it... When I go to watch United live it’s never been all hugs and kiss. We celebrate and we moan. Redcafe’s become UK Politics for a good year now. Brexit has infected us.