[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

This is his 4th season at senior level. At 24 most players are in their 4th-6th senior season Lingard's no different

I'm sorry but that plain bullshit. Lingard is not 'no different' from others. He never made his senior debut till age 23, so this isnt his "fourth season at senior level'. And only last season did he become a first team squad regular. He is as inexperienced as Martial and Rashford at senior EPL level. His age is irrelevant. For United he has just 48 games. And his lone period in the championship is
47 games spread over 4 seasons reaching at most 14 and mostly as sub appearances. Rashrford has just 8 less, whilst Martial comfortably dwarfs it.
So if people don't hold their inconsistency against them due to their inexperience I see no valid reason why Lingard isn't viewed the same way.

.... He missed a bit of football with his injury a few years back granted but he's still played almost 100 senior games.

well you are wrong.

 

[Celestiale]

You can consider whatever the feck you like to be a 'proper level' but it won't change anything.

First league football, top national cup competitions and European level, simple as that. Not too hard to understand

 

[Ixion]

So if people don't hold their inconsistency against them due to their inexperience I see no valid reason why Lingard isn't viewed the same way.

The key difference is Rashford and Martial despite their age have made greater contributions and shown a far higher level than Lingard. People will give them the benefit of the doubt because they've earnt it and proven what they can do at their best, there are still question marks about Lingard. If Lingard is going to be mostly a sub and start the odd game people will scrutinise him less but if he's going to be one of our best paid players and start 5-6 games in a row then he has to perform at that level.

 

[kr0nix]

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

No as often seems to be the case in this thread facts are spun to suit the narrative that Lingard is a late bloomer who is somehow younger than his years. He's 24 in his 4th full senior season and he's played 127 senior games. Those are the facts.

Laughble lies. It is a fact he has not played up to 127 senior games. That is just pure fiction

You can consider whatever the feck you like to be a 'proper level' but it won't change anything. Also Martial has played more games than Lingard 3 years his junior because Martial is a much, much bigger talent who warranted more games at a younger age. Rashford before he is 21 will also have played a lot more games for similar reasons.

So what? Denying that Lingard is a late bloomer when SAF himself said he'd not be ready to debut in senior football till 23/24, and that is EXACTLY what occurred is behaving like an ostrich.

Honestly , if people are going to slate Lingard they should at the very least have their facts straight

 

[SirScholes]

I have tried to be more upbeat with this guy lately but yet again he comes up with another poor performance. I'm really shocked a manager who has won so much in the game and should know better is so loyal to a really sub par player. 5 or 6 good games a season isn't good enough for a Manchester United player, or maybe that is the new standard and why we are miles behind the top teams. I like to see local lads playing in the team but he just isn't good enough. While he starts for this team we won't be anywhere near winning any major trophy, simple as that.

I don't hold this against Jose, everyone else is injured or slow as shit.
Whilst I agree we have better players I can understand his current selection based on players available.

I agree he is borderline talentless

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

So you discount his loan spells then? ...

You really believe 5 in some seasons at most eventually rising to 14 games a season mostly off the bench, spread over 4-5 seasons, count as senior level experience?

 

[Robbie Boy]

You really believe 5 in some seasons at most eventually rising to 14 games a season mostly off the bench, spread over 4-5 seasons, count as senior level experience?

I would say it's indicative of him not being good enough that he couldn't break into those teams.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

77 games on proper level, that's around half the games Martial had in his career...and 10 more then Rashford. So the poster was right

He really isnt :

48 have come at first team level at United

Martial has twice as many first division level games as that and Rashford has just 8 less.

The others being 'counted' for lingard are:
5 for Leicester
13 for Birmingham
15 for Brighton
14 for Derby.

Which include substitute appearances with starts. To deny he is very inexperienced at senior level is thus frankly plain stupid.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I don't think 50 odd games spread out over 3 years in the Championship are really that important in a players development, no.

He's broken through at 23/24 rather than 20/21. Regardless of how his career develops or goes from here it is unusual to see a player come through so late and he's obviously on a different path to most young players. Not sure what else you'd call that other than an exception to the rule.

Well his lack of playing time until now is due to his lack of quality really.

He has taken a different path to most players but still looks nowhere near good enough most of the time and I would be surprised if he has any massive improvement in a developmental sense. I mean, I hope he does but I'm losing faith at a rate of knots at this stage. For me, he's only a passenger in games where we are struggling to break down teams. Yeah there's the very odd example to the contrary but that's it; the odd game coming up with something really isn't good enough. Two of his goals this season have been in dead rubber games that were already well and truly won.

If you're happy with him that's swell, but for me, he's just another example of how it's ok to set the bar so low for certain players.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Ibra is peaking for years, he is holding a certain level, but he definitely still was at his top until his injury. Your 20/21 is absolute bollocks, even in todays times. Players really performing at 20 are the rare exception, they are the so called wonderboys. Youth mania at it's finest

I said playing a good level by those ages, not the very top. Also, I never said it's an exact science or nothing of the sort.

 

[Mr.Plow]

Regardless of age and first team experience, Rashford and Martial show incredible promise and the potential to become world class.

Lingard shows very little potential, the only aspect of his game that people praise is his running. Having watched him for the last two years, I'm still at a loss as to what his actual strengths are. I remember having the same problem with Cleverly.

 

[IrishRedDevil]

Regardless of age and first team experience, Rashford and Martial show incredible promise and the potential to become world class.

Lingard shows very little potential, the only aspect of his game that people praise is his running. Having watched him for the last two years, I'm still at a loss as to what his actual strengths are. I remember having the same problem with Cleverly.

I'm not a huge fan of Lingard, but his Wembley record also deserves a small mention.

 

[stevoc]

I'm sorry but that plain bullshit. Lingard is not 'no different' from others. He never made his senior debut till age 23, so this isnt his "fourth season at senior level'. And only last season did he become a first team squad regular. He is as inexperienced as Martial and Rashford at senior EPL level. His age is irrelevant. For United he has just 48 games. And his lone period in the championship is
47 games spread over 4 seasons reaching at most 14 and mostly as sub appearances. Rashrford has just 8 less, whilst Martial comfortably dwarfs it.
So if people don't hold their inconsistency against them due to their inexperience I see no valid reason why Lingard isn't viewed the same way.

See this is exactly what i'm talking about, 2-3 seasons worth of senior football in Lingards career are being totally disregarded because it doesn't suit the narrative that despite being 24 he's actually much younger in terms of development which is bullshit.

Fact one he made his senior debut for Leicester in November 2012 at the age of 19.

Fact two he's played 77 senior games for United not 48, if you are going to twist facts to suit a narrative mate. At least take the time to check your numbers are correct.

He's had 4 full seasons at senior level, it's laughable that anyone would try suggest otherwise.

well you are wrong.

127 senior games its a fact mate.

 

[stevoc]

First league football, top national cup competitions and European level, simple as that. Not too hard to understand

You would think and yet you seem to be having problems understanding the fact that the championship is a senior football league. It's not a youth league or an u23 league, it's senior football and Lingard played 47 games in it.

 

[el3mel]

He's a squad rotation player, was and will be the same, he knows this and Jose knows it as well. He's playing as a starter now because of lack of players and injuries.

He still has some usefulness in some games due to his movement. He can be good in games when you want to make high pressure on the opposition defense to disturb their build up play as what happened against Chelsea but he must play centrally for this, though , as on the flank he's completely useless, seriously what makes him a wing ?

He isn't skilled enough, can't dribble past players unless those players are blind, his finishing is mediocre and his crosses are non-existent. I'm struggling to find any criteria of a wing player in him.

He must play centrally as SS or something like that to use his movements to highly press the defense and this is valid in some games.

He can't be sold as the club needs any English player possible but he'll never be a consistent starter under Jose in the coming years but will be useful from time to time.

 

[Robbie Boy]

You would think and yet you seem to be having problems understanding the fact that the championship is a senior football league. It's not a youth league or an u23 league, it's senior football and Lingard played 47 games in it.

I wouldn't bother. They are skewing numbers to suit their narratives. Also ignoring the fact that Lingard's lack of playing time by 24 years of age is clearly down to the fact that he isn't really that good.

 

[stevoc]

Laughble lies. It is a fact he has not played up to 127 senior games. That is just pure fiction

You need to understand something can't be a lie or fiction if it can be proven. Lingard has played 127 senior games, i'm baffled how you are trying to deny the reality of that.

So what? Denying that Lingard is a late bloomer when SAF himself said he'd not be ready to debut in senior football till 23/24, and that is EXACTLY what occurred is behaving like an ostrich.

Honestly , if people are going to slate Lingard they should at the very least have their facts straight

Thats hilarious mate coming from someone who doesn't seem to accept actual facts.

I'm not discounting the possibility that Lingard could be a late bloomer it's possible that he could still develop into a top player if unlikely. My problem here is people spewing bullshit to excuse his performance level and inconsistency.

Regardless of whether he's 21, 24 or 27 his performance levels and consistency have not been good enough in my opinion.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I would say it's indicative of him not being good enough that he couldn't break into those teams.

Or its more than likely what his manager of over 30 years plus experience said about him and his future was 100% correct.

 

[stevoc]

He really isnt :

48 have come at first team level at United

Martial has twice as many first division level games as that and Rashford has just 8 less.

The others being 'counted' for lingard are:
5 for Leicester
13 for Birmingham
15 for Brighton
14 for Derby.

Which include substitute appearances with starts. To deny he is very inexperienced at senior level is thus frankly plain stupid.

First off you are now arguing with someone who was agreeing with you which is hilarious, secondly where are you getting this 48 games number from?

He's played 77 games for United as the other guy said. Please don't tell me you are accusing people of being liars and you haven't even bothered to check that he's played 48 league games for United but 77 overall.

Or maybe games in the FA Cup, League Cup, Champions League and Europa league don't count as senior games now either?

 

[Robbie Boy]

Or its more than likely what his manager of over 30 years plus experience said about him and his future was 100% correct.

Yeah because everything Fergie said came to fruition. I see this drum is still being banged in defence of Lingard. Honestly you could write a book of Caf Lingard excuses to defend his inconsistency and the fact that he doesn't look good enough.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Lingard

 

[Robbie Boy]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Lingard

So you're only using league appearances? What kind of bollox is this.

 

[Ramshock]

Unfortunately he is another Welbeck for me.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Yeah because everything Fergie said came to fruition. I see this drum is still being banged in defence of Lingard. Honestly you could write a book of Caf Lingard excuses to defend his inconsistency and the fact that he doesn't look good enough.

Sure. Because he doesn't display the hallmarks of an actually inexperienced player who looks good one day like vs Chelsea, in the 2 nil win and bad the next. Which is an actual thing that happens to inexperienced players that makes them inconsistent. We are just making it all up to excuse Lingard....

 

[Robbie Boy]

Sure. Because he doesn't display the hallmarks of an actually inexperienced player who looks good one day like vs Chelsea, in the 2 nil win and bad the next. Which is an actual thing that happens to inexperienced players that makes them inconsistent. We are just making it all up to excuse Lingard....

Yup, as I've alluded to a million times, he can be good for tactical reasons in games like against Chelsea where he's there to press defenders and close people down.

In games against poor sides when he's expected to create, that's where he often gets found wanting and is totally ineffective. Funnily enough, in a fully functioning, winning United side under Fergie he would be a good squad player as when called upon, there would always be enough quality in the side to beat cannon fodder sides and he would probably look half useful in those situations.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

The key difference is Rashford and Martial despite their age have made greater contributions and shown a far higher level than Lingard. People will give them the benefit of the doubt because they've earnt it and proven what they can do at their best, there are still question marks about Lingard. If Lingard is going to be mostly a sub and start the odd game people will scrutinise him less but if he's going to be one of our best paid players and start 5-6 games in a row then he has to perform at that level.

Which speaks to their double standards. Rather than the actually reality Lingard is as inexperienced at senior level as any 19-20 year old just breaking into senior football. Most especially one without the wonderkid talent levels of Martial and Rashford.

 

[stevoc]

So you're only using league appearances? What kind of bollox is this.

Yeah he is it seems. CL, EL, FA Cup and LC games just like Championship games must not count as senior games either.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Unfortunately he is another Welbeck for me.

Never rated Welbeck but I think he's a far better player than Lingard. For me, Lingard is around the Cleverley level.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Yeah he is it seems. CL, EL, FA Cup and LC games just like Championship games must not count as senior games either.

Not surprising. There's always a-lot of different rules and exceptions when it comes to Lingard.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I appreciate Jesse's work ethic, he always tries his hardest but I often wonder if he wasn't from Manchester would be still be at the club?

When I think back to how Nani got treated and compare the difference in skill and output, it's really quite amazing. I would kill for a young Nani to be back on the right wing now instead!

 

[devips]

Lingard is fine. This year his contribution is more than Martial's, so Mourinho keeps picking him. His passing and off the ball play, for instance, is much better than Martial's. What he needs to do is convert more of his chances.

 

[stevoc]

I appreciate Jesse's work ethic, he always tries his hardest but I often wonder if he wasn't from Manchester would be still be at the club?

When I think back to how Nani got treated and compare the difference in skill and output, it's really quite amazing. I would kill for a young Nani to be back on the right wing now instead!

He isn't he's from warrington but i see what you mean, being english has definitely benefited him. I think it will keep him at the club next year as we look to be offloading several english squad members this summer. And yes i agree on Nani.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Lingard is fine. This year his contribution is more than Martial's, so Mourinho keeps picking him. His passing and off the ball play, for instance, is much better than Martial's. What he needs to do is convert more of his chances.

How? Martial: 8 goals and 7 assists - Lingard: 5 goals and 3 assists. feck me, can people just stop making shit up to suit their narrative. And typically Martial gets brought up once again for criticism, all in the name of defending Lingard.

 

[Celestiale]

I said playing a good level by those ages, not the very top. Also, I never said it's an exact science or nothing of the sort.

Good level, how ever you wanna define that Lingard played at the same level like most current Chelsea starters at age of 20. It was really nonsense, a nothing argument you were stating

 

[Zlatattack]

Never rated Welbeck but I think he's a far better player than Lingard. For me, Lingard is around the Cleverley level.

He's going to be a useful squad player. Not everyone is going to be CR7.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

So you're only using league appearances? What kind of bollox is this.

By all means, You add the cup games on top of it. You will still find he didn't start most of those cup games either. So you won't make him appear any more experienced than he really is

 

[Robbie Boy]

He's going to be a useful squad player. Not everyone is going to be CR7.

Christ. Can people just stop saying not very player has to be world class etc. Absolutely no one is saying that and we've had some great squad players over the years like Park, Hernandez, O'Shea etc. None of those were world class. Squad players still have to make contributions and right now, Lingard isn't doing that and he's been pretty shite this season for the most part. Son is a squad player Spurs and he has contributed far more than Lingard this season.

 

[Robbie Boy]

By all means, You add the cup games on top of it. You will still find he didn't start most of those cup games either. So you won't make him appear any more experienced than he really is

Christ

 

[Robbie Boy]

Good level, how ever you wanna define that Lingard played at the same level like most current Chelsea starters at age of 20. It was really nonsense, a nothing argument you were stating

Good man. You clearly have no point to make. Just as I suspected. As you where...