But only 1 (who wasn't really our academy product to start with) has a career at the level we want to be.
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 42
- Goals
- 5
- Assists
- 4
- Yellow cards
- 6
- Status
What does this even mean? Martial was absolutely brilliant last season and even though he's failed to really put a run together this season, he has still surpassed Lingard in terms of goals and assists. Not to mention that Martial is like 4 years younger.
Jesus Christ, do people have to constantly slag off Mkhitaryan and Martial in here. I've criticised both in their threads this season and have never once felt the need to bring Lingard into it. feck me.
It's the fallback plan, defend lingard by putting down others if that doesn't work try shouting that he runs around a lot, rinse and repeat
The irrational Anti-Lingard rants here cannot be explained by any other word. Particularly when nobody is defending him by saying he is a world class player, and better than Martial/ Mkhi talent-wise. Why keep parroting the same inanities over and over again?
It's quite clearly a two way thing or maybe you just haven't been in reading the posts. I mean you randomly bumped it to ask about 'hate' so naturally people will respond to you.
I don't see any hate or anti-agenda, though. I see some thinking he's good enough and others who think he isn't. What's the problem? It's the same in plenty of 'player performance' threads.
Moreover I get the impression Mourinho rates Lingard and is deliberately using him to be a bit disruptive, create space, distribute the ball etc.
Too many are butt hurt that he keeps out the 'flash' players regularly, and actually offers more than many are willing to admit, the lads done well, and I for one is pleased for him.
Nah I seriously doubt it. I'm sure all our fans want players playing that will win us games. I couldn't give a flying wank who he is keeping out if he was putting in better performances.
Well that's fine, you'll be happy he's playing regularly atm then.
Why? He's been extremely poor the last two games. Against Swansea he was absolutely atrocious. He wasn't as bad against Celta but missed at least one sitter. I think you're the one with the favourites here. I suspected as much.
Yeah he's won us lots of matches this season.
Such a cute denial shows you are aware the problem exists. Give your agenda a rest. It's tiring for all concerned.
Pretty much how he used Oscar at Chelsea.
You're clearly the agenda driven one. You throw 'hate' and 'anti-agenda' around because you can't make any constructive argument. You also ignore the posters stating he's been 'one of our best players over the past two seasons' or anyone that doesn't rate him 'doesn't understand football'.
What's my agenda? I've stated today that I don't mind him as a squad player sooo..... posters like you are fecking pathetic. It's all about this 'hate' you perceive is there because you read what you want.
He's a good player, and deserves his place atm, this is only my opinion of course, and not for one minute am I saying he has more natural ability than Martial and Mkhitaryan, (sorry to bring them into it, but he is often keeping one of them out), but those two have been in the main disappointing and erratic recently, so personally I'd rather see Lingard's name on the teamsheet just now, you know what you'll get from him.
I think he has his uses but not in what should be dead rubber games like against Swansea. In those games he's consistently shown a lack of ability to open teams up and given he's playing in an attacking position and expected to create, that's not good enough.
As I've said, if we sort our shit out this summer he's a fine squad player. He's played too much this season, though. Hopefully we can improve drastically in the final third and he can be a good squad player next season. He's getting so much stick because he's started so much this season - for various reasons - and often come up short with his finishing and his ability in the final third. No one questions the rest of his game. He should have more goals and assists, I mean he really needs to improve that aspect of his game.
Just an easy target for fans, he's not the problem, he does a good job for us in the main, and if Jose sees fit to play him over the fans favourites then it's clearly for a reason.
Brilliantly put, best post on here and that's why so many are moaning
As have many, problem with Lingard is that if he arses things up people are on him straight away, if the 'flair' players do it then people are willing to forgive more easily, the stick he got when he signed his new contract was ridiculous.
For the record I agree with you, long term he is a squad player, and he is not one of my 'favourites' by any means, but I see a player that has worked is arse off from been a kid at United, has clearly had a far better mentality than the more naturally talented kids around him, had loan after loan, yet he is the one who is still at United, he has also scored some really important goals for us, and imo thoroughly deserved his new deal, yet all some people can do is use him as an easy target when things don't go our way.
Re the first part: I think some overplay this point. Against Swansea for example, I criticised about 4/5 players in their threads as did plenty of others. Some (not you) are too hung up on this fallacy that it's 'only Lingard that gets criticised' when that blatantly isn't true. I think there's a growing trend on here with people seeing what they want to see and believing they have to 'protect' certain players from criticism and it leads to bollox like 'hate' being bandied about. I don't really have any 'favourite' players per se - though I find some more likeable, better players etc - and if someone (no matter who it is) plays poor then criticism is fair game and if they play well then praise is fair game.
Re the contract: I didn't get involved in that thread as far as I remember as a players wages is irrelevant to me although we did seem to give him an unusually high contact.
Anyhow, yeah we seem to agree on the squad player going forward thing so that's fair enough.
Can't score from easier chances but will put a 35 yard ball past a congregation of 6 players into the net.
Ya some people are harsh on him, including me. I'm actually drunk now and I'm actually thinking more clearly than when I'm sober. He is working harder compared to Mkhitaryan and Martial who seem to disappear when things don't go their way during some matches.
Lingard still has time to improve his shooting and his passing when under pressure, it's just that people hate that he is earning more than he deserves and getting selected in spite of bad performance, where as Mkhitaryan and Martial are on bench whenever they have a bad match. I'm sorry if I behaved like a child and attacked people with my lame sarcasm.
Leave it to alcohol to get people talking rationally about Lingard.
Think there's plenty of rational debate in here, though. Depends what you choose to read. There were however two absolutely terrible posters who entered this thread today and started off with the 'haters' crap with one being beyond odious. Pity, as most can actually debate his ability, shortcomings etc without resorting to petty insults and a view that they are more intelligent football fans.
why on earth would any fan be "butt hurt" (hate that immature phrase) that he keeps out a flashy player if the team is performing well? don't be totally stupid, every united fan wants what is best for the team and he is certainly not it!
This track back helps out defence thing is new, and is being used to cover over how utterly useless he is as an offensive player. Even if he was slightly above average I wouldn't mind so much but he consistently puts in 5/10s even these 6/10s which he doesn't do much of are no reason to sing and shout.
great a below standard player has shown to all youngsters you don't need to be good to sponge 100k a week of us
Well reading this the 'immature' phrase clearly fits you well.
I for one am not 'singing and shouting' about him, but he is the type of player that is damned if he does damned if he doesn't in the eyes of many, which is unfair imo, he offers more than many just now, and Jose clearly agrees..
Jose clearly agrees makes me laugh, maybe Jose got it wrong? Maybe he has no choice but to play him.
Not sure how he is damned either way because if he plays well they'd be no problem but he doesn't sadly for him and united.
Our attack has been a big problem, he has to take a large portion of the blame as that is his job
Yeah and they would probably fall into the people I mentioned in the very next sentence. Level headed fans, who think we shouldn't be playing him and that we should have better players, performing better. The people I would class as being unintelligent and thick headed are those who post meaningless insults like "shit", "joke", "useless", "donkey" (go back to Thursday night in this thread if you want to see more) and then shout down anyone who dares to add any sort of reasoning as to why he is picked and what he actually offers the team.
Even if I thought Lingard was a terrible player, who had no redeemable qualities I would try to convey this in a more intelligent manner. I would also have the self awareness to realise that I am pitting my football wits against Van Gaal, Mourinho and a couple of England managers. So would possibly tread a little lighter than others.
I agree with you, I hope we sign better players than Lingard and that our attackers start performing better.
Precisely this. He's the water carrier in the final third. Provides passing options, draws defenders away, creates space for others. Making runs etc seems obvious enough, but consider that the significantly more talented Martial rarely does this and seems to expect to play the game on his own terms.
Remember this is a football forum where posters often reply in between doing stuff like going to work or on the train. The replies are often very strong as you're trying to get your point over and often taking to task on it.
I'm not buying pitting the football wits part as all the managers you have mentioned have not been successful for us or England so who is wrong and who is right I'm not so sure.
If Jose can get us back to winning leagues with Lingard as a regular then I'd accept I'm wrong. But right now I'd say myself along with multiple other posters should not be hit with if you don't see what he does you're just not intelligent enough to see it card ( not aimed at you). Or when he finally plays well all the posters calling us out on it when in reality the last 5-6 games he's been stone average. He's due a goal I hope it is today I'm a season ticket holder and when at games I back him fully like I do all our team. I'm not a very vocal fan I mostly sit and just watch. But I'm allowed my opinion just like I was on Cleverley, Blackett and RVP Falcao and now Rooney. I also would have fought harder to keep Di Maria, Welbeck and Chico who I believe LVGs transfer policy has set us back 5 years. 2 of his tenure and now it will take Jose millions and 3 transfer windows to get it right because how bad the squad was under the curious case of LVG.
He has some specific attributes (his off the ball movement, his energy, his run, his link-up,...) which vindicates his inclusion in the team in the last two seasons however he's been poor, generally, this season. It's really that simple. About whether he will in the squad in the future I think people here always have an optimistic illusion that eventually the squad will be filled with world-class players that players like Lingard will be surplus to requirement. History said it might not be the case. Lingard needs to deliver more regularly for sure.
Mate, the only embarrassing thing in this thread are your posts. Apart from fawning over Lingard you have done nothing but attack other posters. You've labeled them as pathetic, and belittled them for having "crappy little office jobs". Your self-righteousness is sickening, you must be a troll because there is no way you can seriously try to take the moral high-road in this because there really is none. Your posts are overly defensive and toxic and they show a sentimental, sycophantic attitude. You want to defend Lingard? Go for it, nothing wrong with that. But if you're going to shame and disparage other people for disagreeing with you then you need to have a word with yourself.
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He's picked up the Willian role, albeit not as gifted a player. Jose likes them because they are obedient and carry out his instructions. They're quick and industrious, they offer support to the midfield and press the defense. Their off the ball movement is key.
If we had had 5 or 6 pages of this kind of criticism, then I wouldn't even have commented on the thread, I might even had agreed. But it wasn't, it was page on page of him being called a useless clown who has no right being at the club, then when anyone dared offer anything constructive or contrary to that it was shut down with more insults. It was these people, people who think he has zero value, I called unintelligent and I stand by it, not people calling him average or even poor.
If Lingard scores a hat-trick today and we get page after page of people proclaiming him a superstar, who then start abusing people who make reasonable arguments to the contrary, then my response would be similar: "The people who can't see his limitations are stupid".
Rashford, Rooney, Mata, Martial, Mkhitaryan, Memphis... Lingard went into this season being our 7th choice winger (outside forward)? I would be surprised if anyone, including Jose, thought we would have a decent shot of winning the title, if we were relying on him so much at this stage, especially if it meant our other attackers were not firing on all cylinders.
This could apply to quit a few posters on here, beautifully articulated I might add....
When Rashford didn't score for months he still got picked as he was still carrying out Jose's instructions and showing effort and energy. Martial even when scoring could get dropped and criticised presumably because he wasn't showing effort or carrying out tge tactical instructions. Fellaini no-one likes except Jose because he does seem to be able to do what he is told and puts in a shift to the best of his limited ability. Lingard is similar, he clearly plays his tactical role with great effort and energy.
It does raise the question if we have scored so few due to it not being a high priority in terms of the manager but it seems like Jose views finishing as partly luck, partly form and partly something to be developed but not something that can be forced. But he does view effort and tactical discipline and energy as non-negotiable essentials and it is clear that Lingard has won his manager's trust and a payrise by doing so. At the end of the day Jose is his boss and not the fans who don't rate him.
It does raise the question if we have scored so few due to it not being a high priority in terms of the manager but it seems like Jose views finishing as partly luck, partly form and partly something to be developed but not something that can be forced. But he does view effort and tactical discipline and energy as non-negotiable essentials and it is clear that Lingard has won his manager's trust and a payrise by doing so. At the end of the day Jose is his boss and not the fans who don't rate him.
Main criticism: Lingard doesn't score enough goals this season.
Why Mourinho still play him regularly?
Lingard can do the tactical roles better, and will put more effort than the other options (Martial and Mkhi).
Remember that Mata is often the first choice here than Lingard because he do that roles even better with goals.
Also, Mkhi for a small period do that well too when he took over the position from Lingard before this.
Other than that, I see Mourinho usually use Lingard as the good alternative back-up option whenever M & M are in bad form like at the moment, even if Lingard is in bad form too like recently, at least he will for sure contribute more than them - defensive work, pressure, ball recycling possession etc. Jose trusts him to do that much.
Jose will keep on subbing in M & M in games to gain their form, often replacing Lingard. We don't want M & M to start and cost us conceding goals from making costly mistakes or just being passengers in games.
That's what I noticed anyway. So until M & M improve and get their good forms back, Jose have to start Lingard.
Also, the academy factor could play a tiny small part as well, evidence from the early part of this season.
Let's have good discussions with ethical respect~
Why Mourinho still play him regularly?
Lingard can do the tactical roles better, and will put more effort than the other options (Martial and Mkhi).
Remember that Mata is often the first choice here than Lingard because he do that roles even better with goals.
Also, Mkhi for a small period do that well too when he took over the position from Lingard before this.
Other than that, I see Mourinho usually use Lingard as the good alternative back-up option whenever M & M are in bad form like at the moment, even if Lingard is in bad form too like recently, at least he will for sure contribute more than them - defensive work, pressure, ball recycling possession etc. Jose trusts him to do that much.
Jose will keep on subbing in M & M in games to gain their form, often replacing Lingard. We don't want M & M to start and cost us conceding goals from making costly mistakes or just being passengers in games.
That's what I noticed anyway. So until M & M improve and get their good forms back, Jose have to start Lingard.
Also, the academy factor could play a tiny small part as well, evidence from the early part of this season.
Let's have good discussions with ethical respect~I do think his age causes consternation too. he was 19/20 I think he'd get a lot more leeway than he does. Even though 25 isn't old by any means as a footballer, and you have to consider the fact this is only his second season as a Premier League player, you do expect a level of maturity and development that I'm not sure he has and by the time he achieves it he'll likely be getting on for 27 where upon he'll look even more behind his peers of the same age in terms of those specific attributes.
It's possible he'll confound the usual logic of trajectory and become sensational overnight but if he doesn't then by the time he's reaching the age most players hit their peak he's realistically going to be absolutely miles behind other players at top clubs at the top level for his age. More so than he is now and I think you'd honestly struggle to find a more limited attacking outfield player of his age with his number of appearances and starts at any of the top clubs around Europe.
It's possible he'll confound the usual logic of trajectory and become sensational overnight but if he doesn't then by the time he's reaching the age most players hit their peak he's realistically going to be absolutely miles behind other players at top clubs at the top level for his age. More so than he is now and I think you'd honestly struggle to find a more limited attacking outfield player of his age with his number of appearances and starts at any of the top clubs around Europe.
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Arsenal 2:0 Man Utd
Glad he didn't play today. He'll be well rested for Europa League.
- Status