The point i am making is that your statements are bullshit from start to finish
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 42
- Goals
- 5
- Assists
- 4
- Yellow cards
- 6
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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Yeah I would include myself in that.
We have different opinions. There are things the manager does that I don't agree with, but he has far more info on which to make his decision.
Lingard is not popular, so I realise that supporting him may be contentious to some, but some of us haven't written him off yet, and Jose Fecking Mourinho and the club have given him a fat new contract.
So maybe he us not the useless waste of a shirt that some people think.
Fixed that for you lad.
Sophisticating quotes? Oh boy, we reached Trump level
I'm just fixing your post, I assumed that's what you meant
Let me highlight the important numbers for you here.
Mate you really need to start checking your facts before posting stuff. Of the 29 cup games Lingard has played for United 21 one of them were from the start.
http://www.espnfc.co.uk/player/169136/jesse-lingard?season=2016
Lingard: 36 games, 5 goals and 3 assists, Martial: 36 games, 8 goals and 7 assists, Mkhitaryan: 35 games, 10 goals and 5 assists. Some people were saying Martial and Mkhi haven't done anything to get selected over Lingard in every game.
It's absolutely bizarre. And weirdly enough it's a constant throughout this thread of Lingard fans having digs at those two in defence of Lingard.
Fair enough mate but it's still a totally pointless argument to make, it's a forum we all have our own opinions. No need for someone to pop in every few pages and accuse people of thinking they know more about football than Mourinho. None of us do but we can still disagree with him and discuss why we do.
I haven't written him off completely yet either but it's getting there. I was actually a fan of Lingards in the u21's and on the pre-season tours. But over the last 2 years he's disappointed me and two things are clear to me he isn't a winger and he doesn't seem to be progressing as a player. Granted the second part of that could be because he isn't playing in his natural position
I was hoping Jesse would show us something more other than the usual energetic running and movement. I was expecting him to provide a decent option from the right, beat his man a few times, or improve his crossing ability. Had a feeling that he would improve after a consistent run of games. But it has not happened. He is more or less, the same player we have seen last year.
Just doing the basics was OK last year, or the previous year, but he is now coming into the experienced players category and he has to make the step up and do more. Like, I am used to seeing home grown players like O Shea, Fletcher, Wes Brown who were all many levels above Jesse. They were squad players but were also capable of outperforming their first team counterparts.
I don't think there is a single opposition fan who gets worried about their team when Lingard is introduced. I mean, Gylfi Sigurdsson or Adama Traore could cause more problems than he does, and those players are playing for relegation threatened teams are are never thought to be good enough.
Alas, it is becoming more clear that he is here to just make up the numbers and is getting games merely because others are not performing well or are injured and has done nothing much to make a case for being a starter. The 'home grown players' clause may also be a factor, like Fabian Delph for City.
He is not even frustrating, that would go to Martial or Rashford. Lingard is just a disappointment.
Just doing the basics was OK last year, or the previous year, but he is now coming into the experienced players category and he has to make the step up and do more. Like, I am used to seeing home grown players like O Shea, Fletcher, Wes Brown who were all many levels above Jesse. They were squad players but were also capable of outperforming their first team counterparts.
I don't think there is a single opposition fan who gets worried about their team when Lingard is introduced. I mean, Gylfi Sigurdsson or Adama Traore could cause more problems than he does, and those players are playing for relegation threatened teams are are never thought to be good enough.
Alas, it is becoming more clear that he is here to just make up the numbers and is getting games merely because others are not performing well or are injured and has done nothing much to make a case for being a starter. The 'home grown players' clause may also be a factor, like Fabian Delph for City.
He is not even frustrating, that would go to Martial or Rashford. Lingard is just a disappointment.
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I think his contribution is measured unfairly. There is a lot of talk of assists and goals, which isn't altogether unfair, he is an attacking midfielder, but it's often viewed out of context. The whole team has been shit, so the end product for everyone is low. I think he works hard for us when he plays. He covers lots of ground, provides cover, has intelligent movement, is direct and completes a good amount of his passes. All these things don't add up to much by themselves, but if the team was doing well these things would end up in him getting more assists, more "assists to assists" and probably more goals too. Right now he's doing all these positive things and it just ends up with our attacks petering out.
Son has had a great season for Spurs, if Lingard had been playing for Spurs this season, he wouldn't have got the same figures Son but, he'd have had a much better season than he has had with us.
Funnily enough, the only people that bring up goals and assists in here are generally the ones defending him. That's quite baffling considering the players people criticise in here - Mkhitaryan and Martial - both have better outputs in terms of goals and assists. I keep hearing how hard he works - granted, he's a trier alright - but statistically does he run, cover more distance etc, more than our other players? I'm genuinely curious.
The problem with Lingard is that the bar is set incredibly low for him. Look at the people criticising other players who have better outputs than Lingard, for an example of what I mean. I feel that Jose is incredibly harsh on both Martial and Mkhitaryan and they are benched as soon as they have a sub-par performance (well they have been at various times) whereas not much is expected of Lingard, and he seems to get picked time-and-again after poor performances. Swansea on Sunday was a prime example of how he hasn't got the talent to open poor teams up. So many times this season he's struggled badly against the poorer teams even though he's been given time and space. I literally never expect anything to happen when Lingard has the ball. Yes other players have been poor but this can't constantly be used in defence of Lingard and this thread is about his performances, and his performances alone.
As I said, he would be a grand squad player in a fully functioning Fergie team. Unfortunately, right now his only real use is in the bigger games when he is played to press defences and basically be a nuisance. Praising his movement is kind of clutching at straws in the context of justifying his place in the team. That should merely be one aspect of his game, however, it seems to be literally the only thing he's good at lately. All this movement would be great, if there was an end product to it.
Just a bang average player with a good work ethic and the advantage of being 'one of our own'....meaning he gets a much longer leash than foreign players of his age, would get.
If we persist with him as a starter we shouldn't be surprised with average outcomes from him. His skill-set and attributes are those of a reliable, hard working squad player - not a starting 11 player for a team with supposedly lofty ambitions.
If we persist with him as a starter we shouldn't be surprised with average outcomes from him. His skill-set and attributes are those of a reliable, hard working squad player - not a starting 11 player for a team with supposedly lofty ambitions.
I dont think anyone even his biggest fans think hes good enough as a starter.
The thing is though i'm not even sure if he's good enough as a squad player for the level we're hoping to get back to.
Look at the back up wingers we had over the years under Fergie at different times in title winning sides. Sharpe, Blomqvist, Park, Nani ,Young etc i couldn't honestly say he's on the same level as any of those players.
You're right - i do have a lesser expectation from Lingard - I don't know why. I see him as a Ramires/Kuyt/Willian/Milner style workhorse who fills in the gaps when the first choice players aren't there. In fact though he's often not as effective as those named players and sometimes is taking a starting place in our team rather than being "an option on the bench".
It's natural to expect less of squad players or rotation options, but it's fair game to expect far more than what Lingard had produced in his 70 odd appearances since last season.
Great post. Agree with all of it.
Couldn't disagree more. Herrera and Pogba are better players than Carrick and Fletcher.
Our defence of Rafael/Rio/Vidic/Evra was miles ahead of what we have now though.
The team was set up for Zlatan to score the goals. Everyone elses job is to make sure that happens. Especially Lingard.
Well said.
Fellaini mainly for tactical reason obv. Ibra and Pogba mainly because only with them we seem more like a championship team and capable in winning. Understandably frustrating at many times of course.
Focussing on Lingard's performances with references to Mkhi and Martial,
When the three of them are performing badly and on a poor run of form, who's the safe bet whom Jose can rely on to play and at least do something useful - Lingard because he'll put effort into defending, harassing opponents and running. Mkhi and Martial would lose the ball anw when their form is bad and not doing enough defensive contributions. Big factor here why Lingard often plays in big matches.
Of course, definitely Mkhi and Martial when on form would bring greater quality, and goals output (score and assist), but when they're off form, they're liabilities and could easily lead to costly mistakes. Mkhi's playstyle especially on bad form, he's so frustrating - giving the balls freely to opponents and then they counter attacks. Martial's too, not doing naturally enough helping the LB defend, and basically a passenger on the left wing when he's performing badly.
So really, once they're on form, only then Lingard should be dropped, but until then - until Mkhi and Martial get their form back, Mourinho have to play Lingard.
Also, we should consider their performances in trainings as well. Mourinho always rewarded players who give it their all aka putting enough acceptable effort in trainings and matches, gaming times, as Lingard, Mata and Rashford being rewarded those this season. Only Mourinho is accessible to these, we could only rely on their match performances. The three of them are known as hard workers, Mkhi and Martial not so much.
Let's consider context here, many proven examples of this season:Early part of the season - Martial bad form, Mkhi still adapting so Lingard have to play.
Mid first-half of the season - Martial still struggling, Mkhi start performing, so Lingard rotates and Mkhi plays.
Mid later-half of the season - Martial and Mkhi performing, they both play and Lingard drops.
Final part of the season - Martial and Mkhi bad form again, so unsurprisingly Lingard again have to play (Mkhi play regular in Europe because his form there is great).
So our team is setup for Zlatan to score 60+ goals a season? Really? You don't think others, such as Lingard, are supposed to contribute too? Jesus christ.
Umaxit's video on Lingard released today shows exactly what a lot of fans show negligence too. The importance of tactics is quintessentially put aside for the new shiny toy who can do things on his own- completely forgetting that even if they score a goal - it might not even nessecrily make the manager happy.
Lingard is a special player in my books and will be a pivotal player be that off the bench or starting that leads us back to the top. Though some people may never see it - simply because we were boring and lacked success - In LVG we had a very tactical manager who bought in the importance of possession, position and pressure (the 3p's Henry describes as the tactics of Barcelona and Bayern) back in to a team that was lost tactically and need rebuilding.
LVG unearthed players who could do just that and you can see how Jose is getting the best out him by guess what? Recycling possession, maintaining position and applying pressure.
If you don't understand what I am saying then I highly suggest on watching the video. It will settle some of the hate of Lingard and should in theory some of LVG's (would need to be open minded). There are some fantastic Ideas said in the video by the creator - I have been saying that he needs to play centrally eventually alongside martial and Rashford to run in to space as Lingard confuses the central defender. He is used consistently as a player who has a job to do so the fact he doesn't do a step over or score a bycicle kick shouldn't hinder people's view.
Lingard is a special player in my books and will be a pivotal player be that off the bench or starting that leads us back to the top. Though some people may never see it - simply because we were boring and lacked success - In LVG we had a very tactical manager who bought in the importance of possession, position and pressure (the 3p's Henry describes as the tactics of Barcelona and Bayern) back in to a team that was lost tactically and need rebuilding.
LVG unearthed players who could do just that and you can see how Jose is getting the best out him by guess what? Recycling possession, maintaining position and applying pressure.
If you don't understand what I am saying then I highly suggest on watching the video. It will settle some of the hate of Lingard and should in theory some of LVG's (would need to be open minded). There are some fantastic Ideas said in the video by the creator - I have been saying that he needs to play centrally eventually alongside martial and Rashford to run in to space as Lingard confuses the central defender. He is used consistently as a player who has a job to do so the fact he doesn't do a step over or score a bycicle kick shouldn't hinder people's view.
I came on here to post this video - really interesting watch. His off-the-ball work is under-appreciated on here.
TBH I get all of that about Lingard, the problem I have with him is his inconsistent quality on the ball. He won't be more than a squad player if he doesn't improve that, as going forward we can bring in other players who can offer what Lingard offers plus the required quality on the ball.
TBH though it one of the things that infuriates me about Martial, because if only he could be as good in his work rate and off the ball movement as Lingard he would be some player.
Beat me to it. Was going to post the vid.Pretty much a good simplified 4 mins vid summary of why Mourinho play him that much.
Mourinho gave Mkhi the same pivot-passing and pressure movement roles mentioned in the vid, but recently his form is poor in EPL which is why Lingard instead is preferred to play to make the system works.
Your moving the goalposts I stated Herrera Fellaini and Carrick vs pre illness Fletcher a younger Carrick and Anderson @Jaybomb
I played professional football for over a decade and that video is cringeworthy embarrassing and whoever made it does not have a clue.
I get his role against top teams with his work rate to nullify risks but how does that explain his performances against the likes of Swansea. Or his goal output of 1 league goal as a front man regular at Manchester United?
I am starting to think that a lot of Lingard supporters have never played football. That video is beyond embarrassing, he pretty much talks about Lingards performance against Chelsea where we all know he had a good game. What about the rest of the season?
Exactly we know he's capable of a good game (he wasn't great) but that's 1 in 10 and his goal record and assists are shocking. Could someone post how many times he loses possession trying to control the ball? We now have a non goal scoring attacker that has next to no assists in our team. How standards have dropped.
That video lost me at he's good at receiving and holding up the ball, yes he is sometimes. But more often than not like on Sunday he is awful at receiving or holding up the ball and continually loses possession whenever the ball is played towards him.
And thats the problem with Lingard in a nutshell. He's good at lots of things sometimes, but only every 5th-6th appearance does he put it all together and put in an impressive and productive performance.
Or whlist dribbling, the video claimed he was a good dribbler
That video is poor. I don't agree with videos like this either way; you could make one titled "oh Lingard is crap lol" or make one like this that apparently shows his strengths. Both would be just as cringy as each other.
Funnily enough the video is just rehashing what everyone is saying in here. Yes he has good movement but it's his end product and ability on the ball which is where the problems lie. Again, everyone acknowledges that he played well against Chelsea. After all these are the games that suit him; against bigger sides when he's used as a tactical pawn to press defences and be a nuisance with his off the ball movement. No one questions any of that. I also don't see how he's good in possession as this, to me, is a massive weakness in his game.
He is an attacking player after all and he consistently fails to produce in the cannon fodder games when he has so much time and space. This shows he's a limited player and his best attributes become redundant when he's asked to produce against the lesser sides.
Funnily enough the video is just rehashing what everyone is saying in here. Yes he has good movement but it's his end product and ability on the ball which is where the problems lie. Again, everyone acknowledges that he played well against Chelsea. After all these are the games that suit him; against bigger sides when he's used as a tactical pawn to press defences and be a nuisance with his off the ball movement. No one questions any of that. I also don't see how he's good in possession as this, to me, is a massive weakness in his game.
He is an attacking player after all and he consistently fails to produce in the cannon fodder games when he has so much time and space. This shows he's a limited player and his best attributes become redundant when he's asked to produce against the lesser sides.
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A player who seems to lack focus. He doesn't seem to 'want' to be a top, top young player. His play is loose, and it doesn't seem to matter enough to Lindgaard. He is an attacking player at one of the biggest clubs on earth... does he play like wants that level of responsibility? he seems overawed by other players , doesn't dictate games, and hides behind other players in my opinion... I expect more from players in United's first team.
Thing is, he has proven to be a player who can occasionally do great things (re FA Cup Final 2016..) ... but what he brings to the team now isn't enough. How can he warrant a shirt? He gets substituted.. easily...
In his mitigagtion... I could level this at Mata, Martial, Mikatarihyan... they should be looking to win matches, all of them. But they don't. They just don't, or haven't this season. The premiership is tough, but playing for United isn't easy and these players don't seem to be delivering at the level United need. They need to learn, and learn quickly. Quality, consistent quality is what is required. Look at Herrara? Valencia? Carrick? These play at a level which cannot be questioned, on a consistent basis. I put Rashford in their too.
But Lindgaard, in my opinion needs to grow up and decide whether he wants to be an outstanding player at an outstanding club, or become a player who has fun, scores the odd fantastic goal.... then goes missing.
Thing is, he has proven to be a player who can occasionally do great things (re FA Cup Final 2016..) ... but what he brings to the team now isn't enough. How can he warrant a shirt? He gets substituted.. easily...
In his mitigagtion... I could level this at Mata, Martial, Mikatarihyan... they should be looking to win matches, all of them. But they don't. They just don't, or haven't this season. The premiership is tough, but playing for United isn't easy and these players don't seem to be delivering at the level United need. They need to learn, and learn quickly. Quality, consistent quality is what is required. Look at Herrara? Valencia? Carrick? These play at a level which cannot be questioned, on a consistent basis. I put Rashford in their too.
But Lindgaard, in my opinion needs to grow up and decide whether he wants to be an outstanding player at an outstanding club, or become a player who has fun, scores the odd fantastic goal.... then goes missing.
The video shows that he is used to recycle possession not nessecirly to play a through ball. When this happens, it is infuriating when he makes a mistake; because a) he didn't play the final ball and b) he misplaces a simple sideward pass.
His work ethic is good but pressure isn't just harassing someone; a lot of our attacking pressure comes from Lingard because he finds the right place to receive the pass and then plays the ball off to receive the ball again in another space. This consistently leaves the defenders deciding to go with the ball or with Lingard - leaving space for attackers. If he starts focusing on the final ball - he becomes an important player to mark and the defenders go with him. Lingard is a player built to rotate possession quickly and equally - this is why some managers lwon't see all the positives on a goal because a goal is only a short term thing. Consistently staying in position leads to more consistent chances.
This is only my view on things but I instantly recognised why some and not all fans made noises through Zlatans injury. Mkhitarayn likewise for all his good games has some bad ones for the same reason. They ultimately are too much of a focal point and defenders find it easier to decide to either mark them out the team or mark the surrounding players. So whilst Zlatans and Mkhitarayns goals have come from beating their man/playing through balls to score goals- a lot of our team is isolated and vice versa.
Lingards best game this season resonated with Rashfords against Chelsea because we resorted to less focal points especially centrally. This is shooting myself in the foot and making myself a fool but Lingard can do and will continue to the simple jobs better than the superstars so I do not expect him to get so easily replaced.
Did you notice the start of the last game that we played martial as a LWF, RAshford as RWF and mkhitarayan as our centre forward? That because Jose knows what he is doing and he understands what he has in his hands - a team built to play 352 on the defence; and 433 on the attack. Our strikers occupy wide positions on the counterattack and whilst the AM/CF brings the ball forward - he plays the ball to them and occupies the appropriate space as the wide forward becomes the centre forward. We essentially switch from 352 to 433.
I ask you one question bro- we ended up last season playing Martial on the left, Rashford at the centre and Lingard on the right. If we continued with the same manager and his dross- who do you think we would be playing centrally this season?
Lingard is a quality player that will have a significant support from Jose and He reeks of a player that will outshine competition deemed above him.
Sorry for the long post!
Seriously name 10 games this season Lingard has put in a complete performance.
Can talk about the Chelsea game all you like, yes he had a good game but Anderson has also had good games and so has Cleverly. Doesnt make them good enough.
Lingard is doing a job for Jose right now becuse hes one of the few who hs the energy and workrate and movement but Jose surely recognises he needs better than Lingard to do that job due to his inconsistency on the ball
Erm.. Yeah ok mate
I respect the fact you are justifying your point with detail but I disagree with it all.
While Lingard is a starter in our attack we aren't ever finishing higher than 4th it's as simple as that really. Mediocre players result in mediocre performance and that is where we are right now. We have to address this in Summer or we are in for a barren season next year.
Plus he has chosen the game in which was arguably our best team performance of the season. It was hardly a case of Lingard picking us up by the scruff of the neck and getting us a result.
"Lingaard", it does my fecking head in!
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