[MoskvaRed]

In terms of current options, he probably deserves to be in the starting XI but he should be phased out next summer if we want to be a genuine elite team again.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

One of our best players on the day IMO. I would argue that only him, Lukaku, Matic and Valencia had a good game. The rest were all average to poor.

 

[Rozay]

In terms of current options, he probably deserves to be in the starting XI but he should be phased out next summer if we want to be a genuine elite team again.

In what role do you think he should be a starting player? Right wing?

 

[MoskvaRed]

In what role do you think he should be a starting player? Right wing?

Ideally he would be more central but since we don't have a convincing right wing option and Mkhitaryan (frustrating as he is) offers a bit more dynamism through the centre, I'd keep Juan on the right, yes.

 

[Dobbs]

Our obsession with pace

Wanting a wide player to have pace isn't an obsession. It's been the predominant attribute of wide players since football began.

Mata is wasted on the right.

 

[anant]

Wanting a wide player to have pace isn't an obsession. It's been the predominant attribute of wide players since football began.

Mata is wasted on the right.

Its only on team sheet and for all statistical purposes that we are considering him a wide player. His average position is pretty central and I think he should be playing centrally as he is a better centrally than Mkhi despite the assist stats pointing otherwise

 

[M Bison]

Its only on team sheet and for all statistical purposes that we are considering him a wide player. His average position is pretty central and I think he should be playing centrally as he is a better centrally than Mkhi despite the assist stats pointing otherwise

That in itself is a problem though, narrows the pitch and congests the middle of the park, Rashers and Martial do the same on the left, although to a lesser extent.

We're crying out for a proper winger in my view. Can see why we were in for Perisic.

In terms of current options, he probably deserves to be in the starting XI but he should be phased out next summer if we want to be a genuine elite team again.

Agreed.

 

[anant]

That in itself is a problem though, narrows the pitch and congests the middle of the park, Rashers and Martial do the same on the left, although to a lesser extent.

We're crying out for a proper winger in my view. Can see why we were in for Perisic.

As @Mr Smith put it brilliantly:

Allow me to enlighten you. His job is to create space. Mata's game is all about dragging opponents out of position. The clearest example of this is the space he creates for Valencia. When he drifts inside, he brings the right fullback with him, which results in a lot of space down the right for Valencia to run into either with or without the ball. Its deceptive given that he doesn't spend that much time out wide, but he does really stretch the play by dragging opponents away from where they're supposed to be.

He also drops into pockets of space between the lines to receive the ball. I know this is a concept often talked about with tactics that doesn't sound like it means much, but the general idea is that he arrives in places where space has been vacated, which draws people towards him, and thus away from the player they're supposed to be marking. For example, if Mata pops up on the left (as he does frequently), he has no direct marker, and the opponent's right back and holding midfielder have a choice to either come to him or stay with their man. If it's the former, their man is left free and if Mata thinks quick enough (which he often does) he can pass to them. If the latter happens, Mata is left free with the ball, and can carry it forward and then try to play a precise pass into feet, only to flit off and find space again.

He's also become very defensively diligent in his later years. He very rarely loses his fullback, and although he drifts all over the pitch, he always seems to get back very quickly when we lose the ball. This more than anything is what has won Jose over.

Not every player is the star of the show. Not every player scores most of the goals or gets most of the assists. Some players are genuinely in the team to provide poise, balance, and stability, and get the best out of others. If this seems like an odd role for a playmaking winger, thats only because the game is changing. Fullbacks are more adventurous than they've ever been, and teams are incredibly well organised, which means more effective movement is required to drag players out of position and confuse that organisation.

And although we haven't seen much of it so far this season, he's also a very composed finisher, both from open play and from a dead ball, and I'm sure he'll get his customary 10 goals this season as he has for the past 3 years.

 

[Dobbs]

Its only on team sheet and for all statistical purposes that we are considering him a wide player. His average position is pretty central and I think he should be playing centrally as he is a better centrally than Mkhi despite the assist stats pointing otherwise

Well I disagree, he still receives the ball on the right an awful lot. A position he can't do much from. Fans want pace and ability on the right wing. Hardly an obsession.

Ask yourself why he drops inside so much. Some seem to argue it's a ploy. I think it's because he can't do anything out wide so is forced inwards in order to have some sort of impact. Leading to congestion and Valencia being the right winger. A position he wasn't deemed good enough for quite a few years ago now.

 

[anant]

Well I disagree, he still receives the ball on the right an awful lot. A position he can't do much from. Fans want pace and ability on the right wing. Hardly an obsession.

Ask yourself why he drops inside so much. Some seem to argue it's a ploy. I think it's because he can't do anything out wide so is forced inwards in order to have some sort of impact. Leading to congestion and Valencia being the right winger. A position he wasn't deemed good enough for quite a few years ago now.

Ok, so let's just assume for a moment that you are right. Why would Mou then persist with a player who is neither contributing statistically to our side and is just crowding the midfield. I mean he is neither fast nor strong, defensively he seems to trust Lingard more. There has to be a reason and its not just drifting in centrally he is present on the Left sometimes as well. His positional discipline would be the worst in the league if Mou has asked him to play as a pure wide player and he'd be getting hammered from pundits and everyone for that sort of stuff. Yet he has started eery game for us bar one and he came on as a sub in that game when we were chasing the winner- which highlights that he is possibly doing everything that is asked of him

 

[Dobbs]

Ok, so let's just assume for a moment that you are right. Why would Mou then persist with a player who is neither contributing statistically to our side and is just crowding the midfield. I mean he is neither fast nor strong, defensively he seems to trust Lingard more. There has to be a reason and its not just drifting in centrally he is present on the Left sometimes as well. His positional discipline would be the worst in the league if Mou has asked him to play as a pure wide player and he'd be getting hammered from pundits and everyone for that sort of stuff. Yet he has started eery game for us bar one and he came on as a sub in that game when we were chasing the winner- which highlights that he is possibly doing everything that is asked of him

Because the alternative is Lingard? I think that neatly answers your question. I'd give Rashford a go there but that doesn't seem an option in the minds of the coaching team.

I didn't argue he's going against Mourinho's instructions. Jose isn't going to ask Mata to stay wide and attack the fullback is he? What would be the point, he can't do that. You shape the team around the players you have. So you allow Mata to float inside because that's the only way he can get involved in the game from the right. If you select him you play to his strength.

Big fan of Mata, I think he's a better 10 than Mkhi. I just don't think what he offers starting from the right is anywhere near enough. Imagine getting back to a team that's equally dangerous from both sides? Probably not had that for five years.

 

[anant]

Because the alternative is Lingard? I think that neatly answers your question. I'd give Rashford a go there but that doesn't seem an option in the minds of the coaching team.

I didn't argue he's going against Mourinho's instructions. Jose isn't going to ask Mata to stay wide and attack the fullback is he? What would be the point, he can't do that. You shape the team around the players you have. So you allow Mata to float inside because that's the only way he can get involved in the game from the right. If you select him you play to his strength.

Big fan of Mata, I think he's a better 10 than Mkhi. I just don't think what he offers starting from the right is anywhere near enough. Imagine getting back to a team that's equally dangerous from both sides? Probably not had that for five years.

I honestly think it is a bit obvious what Mou is trying here. He is using Mata to tire the defence and then bringing the pace of Rashford/ Martial against the tired defence to maximize the damage. He is taking a fullback out of his position basically letting Valencia have a free run on the right and considering that he isn't the greatest of crossers, his crosses become slightly better as he isn't under any pressure and he isn't hitting the first man.

Lingard for all his weaknesses has the positional discipline and I'm pretty sure, if Mou felt that Mata was not doing what is asked for him, he'd rather play Mkhi out wide and play Herrera in midfield and would have pushed Pogba (till he was available ) to Mkhi's position just like vs Stoke.

And while it is always nice to think Rashford and Martial out wide would be deadly with Mkhi and Lukaku in as well, I think we'd become very 1 dimensional in attacks- very Liverpool-ish. Attacks based only on pace and it would be tough to break teams that play with a deep line against us( which is nearly every side)

 

[Cheesy]

Wanting a wide player to have pace isn't an obsession. It's been the predominant attribute of wide players since football began.

Mata is wasted on the right.

Depends. Traditionally wide players rely on pace and crossing, especially in a lot of outright 4-4-2 systems where there's an emphasis on direct football, but in recent years there have been plenty of teams who'll shift fairly central attackers/midfielders into wide position, allowing them to cut inside a lot, drift into the middle of the park, and play a role that's not overly similar to a more 'traditional' winger. There's nothing wrong with that approach when it works well. Mata would hardly be the first winger in recent years who relies more on ability and skill than pace.

 

[Dobbs]

Depends. Traditionally wide players rely on pace and crossing, especially in a lot of outright 4-4-2 systems where there's an emphasis on direct football, but in recent years there have been plenty of teams who'll shift fairly central attackers/midfielders into wide position, allowing them to cut inside a lot, drift into the middle of the park, and play a role that's not overly similar to a more 'traditional' winger. There's nothing wrong with that approach when it works well. Mata would hardly be the first winger in recent years who relies more on ability and skill than pace.

There's always exceptions but even after the move away from traditional wingers I think you'll struggle to find a wide man as physically lacking as Mata. Go through today's top wide players and you'll find they're nearly always able to beat a man. They're also able to come inside and cause problems. We need such a player.

Playing him on the right just makes it worse. It pretty much guarantees he'll never go down the outside of the fullback.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

His lack of pace isn't really my issue with him, as there are plenty of slow creative players. It's more his lack of strength, where he can get bullied easily off the ball when we are trying to attack in transition. This forces him to back off and avoid defenders instead of being able to press forward and ride a challenge as he is receiving a pass.

 

[Jean claude van hire]

One of our best players on the day IMO. I would argue that only him, Lukaku, Matic and Valencia had a good game. The rest were all average to poor.

And De Gea of course . Really like Mata, just not quite sure he has ever recaptured the heights he reached at Chelsea. Or did I just imagine he was different class there?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

And De Gea of course . Really like Mata, just not quite sure he has ever recaptured the heights he reached at Chelsea. Or did I just imagine he was different class there?

Possibly. I'm sure I've seen stats which show he's been more productive at United than he was at Chelsea. Playing for a worse team too.

 

[Jaybomb]

No surprise that we win comfortably when this little magician plays.

 

[MeUnited]

Play him at his actual position rather than the right. Mkhi's crap so I don't know how he can't play at 10. Probably because Mourinho knows Mata can do a better job wide than Mkhi too.

 

[Jean claude van hire]

Wonder how good he could actually have been with some genuine speed? Perhaps the fact he doesn't rely on pace means that he can be productive for us for many years to come.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I love Mata, but I would love to see how we'd get on with a direct, pacy winger on the right, who can take players on.

 

[Dante]

I'm a big believer in having 3 or more playmakers on the pitch at all times. And I don't mean creators, I mean savvy players who make the play, set the tempo and dictate how the team is going to settle into the game. United always had it under Fergie. Barcelona had a team of about 8 playmakers at their peak. Real have it now.

Mourinho's team only really has Matic and, to a lesser extent, Pogba. Mata's the only guy who can do it high up the pitch, given that our other options there are Lukaku, Rashford, Martial and Mkhitaryan. For my money, he's got to play unless we find someone else who can do what he does.

 

[Rozay]

Depends. Traditionally wide players rely on pace and crossing, especially in a lot of outright 4-4-2 systems where there's an emphasis on direct football, but in recent years there have been plenty of teams who'll shift fairly central attackers/midfielders into wide position, allowing them to cut inside a lot, drift into the middle of the park, and play a role that's not overly similar to a more 'traditional' winger. There's nothing wrong with that approach when it works well. Mata would hardly be the first winger in recent years who relies more on ability and skill than pace.

My issue with Mata has little to do with his lack of pace. It's the lack of pace in addition to the lack of 'ability and skill' bit that you say he should be relying upon.

Not that Mata has no ability, he obviously does - but for me, still not the ones for a wide forward/playmaker. I'd have less issue with David Silva or Bernardo Silva out wide despite having limited speed. Both can dribble, which still allows them to make open up the game, and both are more likely to play the killer pass (David Silva in particular). Mata just doesn't have the skill-set for a wide role for me. His actual attributes, if listed on paper, are either suited for central midfield or second striker (and even main centre forward in a different era). He has great technique, movement, general passing and finishing. Those are all great. He just doesn't have speed or dribbling ability to play wide I think.

Like, imagine playing Scholes or Fabregas wide? Not an entirely different skill-set I think. Pretty much same strengths and weaknesses.

 

[RedDevil@84]

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[Shimo]

Was just coming to post it ... too funny.

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[VP89]

My issue with Mata has little to do with his lack of pace. It's the lack of pace in addition to the lack of 'ability and skill' bit that you say he should be relying upon.

Not that Mata has no ability, he obviously does - but for me, still not the ones for a wide forward/playmaker. I'd have less issue with David Silva or Bernardo Silva out wide despite having limited speed. Both can dribble, which still allows them to make open up the game, and both are more likely to play the killer pass (David Silva in particular). Mata just doesn't have the skill-set for a wide role for me. His actual attributes, if listed on paper, are either suited for central midfield or second striker (and even main centre forward in a different era). He has great technique, movement, general passing and finishing. Those are all great. He just doesn't have speed or dribbling ability to play wide I think.

Like, imagine playing Scholes or Fabregas wide? Not an entirely different skill-set I think. Pretty much same strengths and weaknesses.

He hardly stays out wide though. He drifts around pretty much anywhere. Sure his default position is on the right but he has the freedom to interact with players further central and his deliveries are great.

Valencia is the perfect partner for him because they have countering strengths and weaknesses. I also find mata retains the ball very well, keeps it ticking between the players and ups the tempo when required by moving it around quickly.

We have dribbles in rashford martial and mkhitaryan. Mata provides another dimension to our attack though, one that isn't about being a maverick to take on players.

 

[shield]

Love Mata and I think the Mikhi-Mata combination is quite good. My only complaint is that having both Mkhi and Mata makes us a bit weak defensively. Both move the ball well, but they are so lightweight, they can be shrugged off easily. I don't mind his lack of pace, but he is very easy to defend against and if he can't find any options in front to pass to he is easily neutralized. I fear this could be a problem if we play against team who press like City or Liverpool.

Like, even now, when both Mikhi-Mata play, there are these phases where we are trying to get hold of the ball but the opposition keep getting it back because the moment the ball comes to Mata or Mkhi, they get pressed and because they are a little lightweight, they have to counter it by playing a quick and mostly tricky pass which mostly does not come off and the opposition manages to win possession back. This happens quite a few times in quick succession and really puts us on the backfoot. However, if we have, someone like Fellaini, who is not easily shrugged off, then, even though Fellaini is nowhere near as good on the ball as Mata, it does help us keep control of the ball.

 

[Sammyjunn]

Silent domination.

 

[SSSSnake]

Mata links up play very well I just wish he could be more productive on the right side.

 

[Mr Smith]

Given the discussions going on in this thread, and the things that have been said about Mata's role, I thought this article might be worth posting:

http://www.espnfc.com.au/club/manch...e-to-mourinho-bid-for-manchester-united-glory

Excellent insight into his role, and one particular feature is highlighted which I feel myself and other's in Mata's corner haven't really highlighted; the fact that his movement exhausts teams for 70 minutes so that by the time he leaves the pitch, a fresh player coming on for him is almost too much for the opposition. Also some stats to demonstrate his contribution. Very much worth a read.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

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Can't stop laughing at this.

 

[Dobbs]

He hardly stays out wide though. He drifts around pretty much anywhere. Sure his default position is on the right but he has the freedom to interact with players further central and his deliveries are great.

Valencia is the perfect partner for him because they have countering strengths and weaknesses. I also find mata retains the ball very well, keeps it ticking between the players and ups the tempo when required by moving it around quickly.

We have dribbles in rashford martial and mkhitaryan. Mata provides another dimension to our attack though, one that isn't about being a maverick to take on players.

If Mata could go at the fullback, take him on, deliver from wide, would that make him less suited to playing with Valencia?

 

[FujiVice]

Juan is shockingly unlucky in front of goal. Seems to go anywhere but the back of the net.

 

[Blind]

Running the show, not going to get into a Mata vs Mkhitaryan debate but he definitely deserves to start in the middle.

 

[finneh]

Central to everything in the number 10 role.

 

[MeUnited]

Juan plays at a quick tempo, so although he doesn't move very quick, he moves the ball quick which is much more important. I wish he'd get a chance at 10 but he never does.

 

[villain]

He’s a magician in the number 10 position

 

[anant]

Mata is love

 

[sullydnl]

Having a very good season that's flying slightly under the radar due to his atypical lack of goals and assists.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Pure silks today.