[Bobski]

I'm just pointing out Souness has a very obvious bias here. He may be a legendary footballer but he's still a human being and subject to the same cognitive pitfalls as the rest of us. Don't hold your breath on the criticism stopping. I'd be more willing to accept it if it wasn't solely based around his height. Do you think Souness would be singing the same tune had Martinez put in the exact same performances while being 2 inches taller? I don't. I don't think there's anything Martinez could have done better to convince his critics.

It's also worth noting that the main shit-stirrers have been Souness and Carragher. Neville and other non-Liverpool pundits have asked the question, but they don't seem to be quite as insistent that Lisandro is a disaster waiting to happen. I think we both agree that Martinez hasn't looked like a player who's been very lucky not to have been responsible for several goals, and that despite being heavily targeted at several times during all of his appearances he has held up as well as basically any CB in the PL would. Souness and the other critics are either deliberately ignoring this data or using the targets to conclude that Lisandro has been ineffective, despite basically only one scoring chance and zero goals resulting from those targets over 4 matches. He gave up a chance last week, fine. Even world class defenders will do that from time to time. We agree that flawlessness is not the required standard, even if it's the required goal.

Of course. It is also the nature of punditry, they are not going to do deep analysis of the game, they don't have the time and it doesn't suit the format or the audience they are aiming for. Generate a debate, create content, and this discussion(and countless others) is a direct result of it.

Ultimately though does it really matter? Results will tell, if he succeeds they will pivot and ignore what they said 6 months ago or build a different narrative around improvement and adaptation.

I don't really consider it shit stirring or problematic, just the nature of media.

 

[Cheimoon]

I think on Skysports they said that he has one of the best won header ratio amongst all CBs since the start of the season

This was posted on Saturday in this thread:

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[Escobar]

This was posted on Saturday in this thread:

Thanks. Not sure that myth dies now though

 

[BrilliantOrange]

Thanks. Not sure that myth dies now though

Souness already showed it doesnt...

They even made suggestions: Can you imagine how he would would be played by Nunez and Haaland.... Wtf dude, thats literally who we played in the CL last year...

 

[A-man]

Thanks. Not sure that myth dies now though

It depends on how you look at aerial duel stats. So far he has high %, but since he challenge very little he doesn’t win many in total. So far he has gone in to 1.5 aerial duels per game . Of all 38 CBs in the PL who played at least 3 matches, there is no other who has challenged that little.

Imo it is too early to draw conclusions from aerial duels stats after only 4 games.

 

[Escobar]

It depends on how you look at aerial duel stats. So far he has high %, but since he challenge very little he doesn’t win many in total. So far he has gone in to 1.5 aerial duels per game . Of all 38 CBs in the PL who played at least 3 matches, there is no other who has challenged that little.

Imo it is too early to draw conclusions from aerial duels stats after only 4 games.

While it is too early, it was also nonsense to write him off and say everyone will score headers now

 

[Escobar]

Souness already showed it doesnt...

They even made suggestions: Can you imagine how he would would be played by Nunez and Haaland.... Wtf dude, thats literally who we played in the CL last year...

And it is not that taller and stronger CBs never lose a header against Haaland

 

[the_cliff]

Souness already showed it doesnt...

They even made suggestions: Can you imagine how he would would be played by Nunez and Haaland.... Wtf dude, thats literally who we played in the CL last year...

Unfortunately our lovely pundits don't watch any football outside of the premier league even when they watch the UCL it's just when the English teams are playing. Did you not see the disrespect Madrid/Benzema were getting last season ?

I think it was Micah Richards that said Benzema has only just reached the level of Harry Kane, that was after his hattrick against Chelsea.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It depends on how you look at aerial duel stats. So far he has high %, but since he challenge very little he doesn’t win many in total. So far he has gone in to 1.5 aerial duels per game . Of all 38 CBs in the PL who played at least 3 matches, there is no other who has challenged that little.

Imo it is too early to draw conclusions from aerial duels stats after only 4 games.

What’s the median? Very hard to know how much of an outlier he is without knowing how many aerial dules most CB’s get involved in per game.

 

[ChaddyP]

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At this point I will just say this is turning into hate for one player.

I like how he says wait till he plays Haaland and Nunez, like he's completely oblivious to the fact that Martinez has faced them both already for Ajax

 

[A-man]

What’s the median? Very hard to know how much of an outlier he is without knowing how many aerial dules most CB’s get involved in per game.

Median is 3.3. From a statistical pov it would not be an outlier even with 0.0 aerial challenges per game.

Edit: last seasons median was 3.85 for CBs with at least 10 games.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

I think this being so much of a talking point is good for us because it motivates & focusses him to do better while it also kind of messes with the opponents tactics. Just wish we had a keeper who would come out a bit more and we would be perfectly fine

 

[Thoms]

Just rewatched the game from this weekend and the way Martinez commands Varane is exactly the way he was at Ajax (and celebrating the stop of de Gea with him). It works great for Varane as well as he always had somebody command him with Ramos. I love this duo so much, they will be the best defence in the PL. Fingers crossed Varane can stay fit

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Median is 3.3. From a statistical pov it would not be an outlier even with 0.0 aerial challenges per game.

Edit: last seasons median was 3.85 for CBs with at least 10 games.

Ok, cool. Bound to be big variance from match to match and depending on role in the team, so still very early days to draw any conclusions. Interesting though. Something to keep an eye on.

Any idea how our various CB’s averaged out over whole of last season?

 

[RedorDead21]

I like how he says wait till he plays Haaland and Nunez, like he's completely oblivious to the fact that Martinez has faced them both already for Ajax

We’ll be massively under the cosh against city. Even if Martinez plays an absolute blinder and we lose he’ll blame him it seems like. Once these guys make bold statements I can only remember KDB making them admit they were 100% wrong.

 

[A-man]

Ok, cool. Bound to be big variance from match to match and depending on role in the team, so still very early days to draw any conclusions. Interesting though. Something to keep an eye on.

Any idea how our various CB’s averaged out over whole of last season?

The numbers of aerial challenges per game last season:

Lindelof 3.2
Maguire 3.6
Varane 3.8

It should be noted this also includes offensive aerial duels which for a CB mainly means corners. Harry is often target for corners and has many offensive aerial duels. When I looked at that over about 20 games last season, 40% of Maguire’s aerial duels were offensive, 30% for Varane, and 20% for Lindelof. If that was reflecting the whole season, the numbers of defensive aerial challenges per game were:

Maguire 2.2
Lindeof 2.6
Varane 2.7

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The numbers of aerial challenges per game last season:

Lindelof 3.2
Maguire 3.6
Varane 3.8

It should be noted this also includes offensive aerial duels which for a CB mainly means corners. Harry is often target for corners and has many offensive aerial duels. When I looked at that over about 20 games last season, 40% of Maguire’s aerial duels were offensive, 30% for Varane, and 20% for Lindelof. If that was reflecting the whole season, the numbers of defensive aerial challenges per game were:

Maguire 2.2
Lindeof 2.6
Varane 2.7

Fascinating. Thanks for doing the digging. Appreciated.

 

[bucky]

Even if you want to die on that height hill, you still have to be trying incredibly hard to not see that he is a special passer. Saying that he is not special at anything is delusional.

 

[joso157]

Absolute rubbish from Souness as usual just cementing how clueless he is as a pundit. You don't have to look back very far to see how Martinez performed against Haaland..... last season when Ajax won 4-0!

I'd also challenge him to name a CB who has failed in the prem because of his height, cause I can't think of any of those either. Height can easily be compensated for these days, his reading of the game, intelligence, positioning and ball playing will more than make up for it. Franco Beresi is regarded as one of the greatest of all time, and he was exactly the same height!

 

[kaku06]

If there was any doubt they are after Martinez no matter what. This is it. All the video is about Manutd, Antony and Martinez.

Martinez bit mainly starts at 6:15.
The Moron that is Stewart Robson, his rant starts at 7:35.

 

[BrilliantOrange]

Unfortunately our lovely pundits don't watch any football outside of the premier league even when they watch the UCL it's just when the English teams are playing. Did you not see the disrespect Madrid/Benzema were getting last season ?

I think it was Micah Richards that said Benzema has only just reached the level of Harry Kane, that was after his hattrick against Chelsea.

This really happened haha?

 

[Kill 'em all]

You can't win anything with kids, the shit De Gea had to face every time he made a mistake during his first season. Rember the story with the donut?

The obession with everything Beckham did, every little drama in our winning teams completely blown up by the media, winning the league but somehow our squad being portrayed as bad champions.

The list goes on and on. It's part of the package. You sign for us whatever you do the media will give you shit unless you're one of their overrated darlings playing for the national team.

 

[AussieDevil]

Unfortunately our lovely pundits don't watch any football outside of the premier league even when they watch the UCL it's just when the English teams are playing. Did you not see the disrespect Madrid/Benzema were getting last season ?

I think it was Micah Richards that said Benzema has only just reached the level of Harry Kane, that was after his hattrick against Chelsea.

This has been the most surprising thing I’ve noticed about British pundits, they have the most limited knowledge outside of English football out of any presenters in other countries.

 

[Real Name]

Souness is a dickhead and an ABU, awful combination.

 

[A-man]

Even if you want to die on that height hill, you still have to be trying incredibly hard to not see that he is a special passer. Saying that he is not special at anything is delusional.

For me, what has been an upgrade so far is his interceptions/clearances outside the box. Maguire has been good at doing that in the air, but was often caught out when doing it on the ground.

I would assume he is our best defender on the ball, but only based on his reputation. So far I can see his good on the ball, but can't say he has shown anything "special" in our four first matches.

When it comes to progressive passing, we are so far the at the lower end compared to the other PL teams. I am not a fan of Maguire's passing skills as I think he is too slow on the ball, but looking at the data from the games, he has by far been our most progressive CB in terms of progressive passing and also progressive carry of the ball.

 

[Olecurls99]

If there was any doubt they are after Martinez no matter what. This is it. All the video is about Manutd, Antony and Martinez.

Martinez bit mainly starts at 6:15.
The Moron that is Stewart Robson, his rant starts at 7:35.

I'm glad I don't know who Stuart Robson is

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

I think playing next to the leadership and self assurance of Varane has been a priceless move in settling him down, it also helps that he has Malacia's grit next to him rather than Shaw's laissez-faire lazy ass. Fair play to both Rapha and Ten Hag for getting it right.

 

[Traub]

He has been pretty decent so far, but Darmian was also solid in his first few games. The main issue with pundits and fans is having to decide within 2 games whether someone is the next big thing or is a flop. Let's give him 18 months before deciding whether he is the next Rojo or Vidic (or somewhere in between).

 

[Baneofthegame]

Just want to point out both Silva and KK had both basically backed off of Adam’s as he’s winning a lot of the duels against them this half.

 

[ChaddyP]

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1/5 wow... Silva must be 4 ft tall

 

[Lyng]

I am looking forward to hear how Souness and Jordan try to spin this...

 

[Adisa]

I wonder how Stuart would rate the Chelsea CBs against Southampton.

 

[DJ_21]

Has a better areal win rate then VVD this season… bet souness won’t say nothing about that.

 

[Lyng]

Some people argue that there are aerial duels he doesn't go for, but context is important there. Especially against Che Adams I noticed he didn't go for it when Che was outside the box. He let him chest it and the he was on him right away while Che was trying to control the ball, turning it into a duel where Martinez had control. He is using his lower gravitational point brilliantly to hi advance.
And this is why I rate him very highly. He is extremely intelligent in how he approaches each situation.
Varane and him are also constantly communicating and working together to solve each situation in the best way possible.
If Varane can stay fit, I am going to predict, we will have one of the best central defensive pairs in the league.

 

[cyberman]

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[Chairman Steve]

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1/5 wow... Silva must be 4 ft tall

English football pundits HATE him! This is what they DON’T want you to know!

 

[facchiano]

People need to remember that T. Silva is 181 cm and K. Koulibaly is 186 cm. So basically a height difference of 6 and 11 centimeters to L. Martinez. Going by the pundits and commentators that follow EPL they're all short.

And the best ballers to light up the EPL are all short but the Englishmen fail to realize that and instead let their discrimination and biases come forward.

 

[Jcrossley94]

People need to remember that T. Silva is 181 cm and K. Koulibaly is 186 cm. So basically a height difference of 6 and 11 centimeters to L. Martinez. Going by the pundits and commentators that follow EPL they're all short.

And the best ballers to light up the EPL are all short but the Englishmen fail to realize that and instead let their discrimination and biases come forward.

Chris Wood would take exception to this.

 

[RuudTom83]

Game 4 and this debate is already old…we are never going to hear the end if it when he eventually makes a mistake.

I hate the media/pundits…try my very best to give them zero attention.

 

[UnitedSofa]

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