[criticalanalysis]

I think it's hard to know where to rate him.

Martinez has had periods where he's been fantastic; not quite Vidic level but certainly one of best in the league. The couple of months last season before the World Cup, and the few games when he came back from injury (the second time) this season.

However he's also had periods where he hasn't been so good. He was nothing more than 'ok' most of the time after the World Cup last season, and obviously struggled for the first few games of this season. The latter might have been due to him rushing back and not being fully recovered so wouldn't hold it against him too much, but the former was an issue.

So it really depends which Martinez we see more often going forward. If he can get back to that pre-World Cup form consistently, then he's a great player to have. His height (and lack of speed) will always be a bit of an issue that we have to compensate for, but he brings enough advantages that it's worth doing so. But if it's more of the post-World Cup form, then he won't be good enough to make up for the disadvantages and we'll ultimately have to look to improve.

I can agree with the 'it's hard to rate him' due to the injuries and periods of form in between but he was certainly much better than just ok post World Cup last season. I remember he came back and was out of the team for a few games to get back into speed but from that period to his injury against Seville, he was okay to really good, more to the latter. I was flicking through the threadmarks on his performances thread for 22-23 and I think the general replies post match match this.

You even said this yourself mate :

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/lisandro-martínez-2022-23-performances.471684/page-159#post-30375904

I actually don't feel he's been quite as good since the World Cup. Still mostly good of course, but not 'best in the league' like he was before the WC.

 

[Lu Tze]

I don't know where the idea that he'd be good in a high line has come from. I see it parroted everywhere. He's not particularly fast which is sort of requirement no. 1.

 

[Bobski]

He is very good but he also has pretty obvious physical limitations that stand out even more when he is not a 100% physically at his peak and also requires a pacy, aerially dominant partner to cover him and probably also a DM who is above average aerially. I think his passing ability and attitude makes up for his deficiencies but another manager might prefer a more physically imposing CB.

 

[criticalanalysis]

I don't know where the idea that he'd be good in a high line has come from. I see it parroted everywhere. He's not particularly fast which is sort of requirement no. 1.

Has it though? You only need to look at this, Tolibo's or other transfer threads to see many as calling for a more speedy and athletic defensive partner/option in the summer.

Martinez is usually attributed with being aggressive and intercepting play, which is good for a high line. He's good at pressing into attackers because of his reading of the game, low centre of gravity and agility. Not great in defending open spaces but not as slow or as hot headed as one would have believe.

 

[Lu Tze]

Has it though? You only need to look at this, Tolibo's or other transfer threads to see many as calling for a more speedy and athletic defensive partner/option in the summer.

Martinez is usually attributed with being aggressive and intercepting play, which is good for a high line. He's good at pressing into attackers because of his reading of the game, low centre of gravity and agility. Not great in defending open spaces but not as slow or as hot headed as one would have believe.

Unfortunately all his qualities, which I totally agree with you on in terms of aggression and intelligence, are negated by the lack of speed in a high line context. I'm not sure what the solution is really, yes you can have fast partners but they cannot always cover a CB in all situations. I have suggested him as LB elsewhere in the thread and think that's probably where you could 'hide' him best but he would still be roasted by the faster wingers. It's a tricky one.

 

[renatosanches85]

He’s a bit of a Daley Blind. The Eredivisie doesn’t truly test a defenders physical attributes which allows their more technical proficiencies to come to the fore, while never really highlighting potential physical deficiencies. There is a reason Otamendi was playing ahead of him in the WC. He might be better suited to defensive midfield.

 

[Stadjer]

He’s a bit of a Daley Blind. The Eredivisie doesn’t truly test a defenders physical attributes which allows their more technical proficiencies to come to the fore, while never really highlighting potential physical deficiencies. There is a reason Otamendi was playing ahead of him in the WC. He might be better suited to defensive midfield.

What about last season in the Premier League? You know, when he was amongst the very best in the league before he picked up an injury?

 

[renatosanches85]

What about last season in the Premier League? You know, when he was amongst the very best in the league before he picked up an injury?

Yeah, if you want to believe that you can. I can only judge it from what I see and have seen over the last nearly 2 seasons, like Toney skinning him last night. But you’re entitled to your opinion also, that’s the beauty of football, won’t change mine though.

 

[VWW]

I hate this place sometimes. This is the reason why most sane people stay away after a defeat. The idiots just talk the loudest.

yep...I cant be asked engaging with these folk.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Guy gets rushed back and thrown into the mix in a truly dreadful team performance, so it's hardly that surprising that he looked rusty and a bit shaky. It wasn't some magical moment that suddenly exposed all his weaknesses for the world to see.

Last year we had one of the better defenses in the league. 1st on clean sheets, joint 3rd on goals conceded. Martinez was a big part of that, and it doesn't happen if he has some major faults that can be easily exploited.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Unfortunately all his qualities, which I totally agree with you on in terms of aggression and intelligence, are negated by the lack of speed in a high line context. I'm not sure what the solution is really, yes you can have fast partners but they cannot always cover a CB in all situations. I have suggested him as LB elsewhere in the thread and think that's probably where you could 'hide' him best but he would still be roasted by the faster wingers. It's a tricky one.

So two things to clarify here:

Firstly, I wouldn't say his qualities are 'negated' in a high line. You can count on one hand the amount of times players were able to get past him 1 vs 1 last season. Granted we were playing a deeper line and therefore, there wasn't as many opportunities but the likelihood is not that he's going to turn in a Lindelof (doing much of a nothing) or a Maguire (rash and mistake prone in open space).

Secondly, my main point was that I don't think there is much of this 'Martinez is ideal for a high line' as you had suggested in your post. It's more that people think he's capable and with the right partner can do well there on top of his other qualities. Every defence will need two strong centre backs that compliment each other and a strong defensive player in front. That's true for Liverpool, Arsenal and City.

 

[Fobal]

Loan him to Boca, I'll receive him with open arms

 

[Herschel Krustofsky]

Let’s not forget his height as well.

How he even gets a game is beyond me.

This place

 

[Bondi77]

He could still end up being used as a DM if we bring in Braithwaite or as a LCB so there will always be a use for him in the squad.

 

[Bondi77]

Guy gets rushed back and thrown into the mix in a truly dreadful team performance, so it's hardly that surprising that he looked rusty and a bit shaky. It wasn't some magical moment that suddenly exposed all his weaknesses for the world to see.

Last year we had one of the better defenses in the league. 1st on clean sheets, joint 3rd on goals conceded. Martinez was a big part of that, and it doesn't happen if he has some major faults that can be easily exploited.

If he is in full training then he is fit to play and being rusty is just a part of being out for a while and the only way that is overcome is by getting match fit.
We had one of the better defences last season and as you say he was just a part of that along with De gea whom had one of his better seasons.

 

[MadDogg]

I can agree with the 'it's hard to rate him' due to the injuries and periods of form in between but he was certainly much better than just ok post World Cup last season. I remember he came back and was out of the team for a few games to get back into speed but from that period to his injury against Seville, he was okay to really good, more to the latter. I was flicking through the threadmarks on his performances thread for 22-23 and I think the general replies post match match this.

You even said this yourself mate :

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/lisandro-martínez-2022-23-performances.471684/page-159#post-30375904

Heh, fair enough. Can't argue with myself

But yeah, I thought afterwards I was probably a bit harsh on him, but overall it was certainly noticeable that he wasn't as good after the WC as he was before it.

 

[KjaAnd]

I won’t judge him based on the Brentford game but I must say, watching him and Casemiro “defend” against Toney for their equaliser was mind boggling bad.

 

[pascell]

He's the least of our worries this summer but his injuries are a worry.

 

[Andycoleno9]

One dodgy sub appearance while he's nowhere near match fitness and he's overrated. Vintage caf.

Overrated doesn't mean "bad" or "not good enough" for United. Is he good enough for United? Yes, he is a good and useful defender to have. Is he among best defenders in PL (as our fans think)? Nope.

 

[Remember the geese]

Is he among best defenders in PL (as our fans think)? Nope.

He was last season. Stands to reason that he still is, providing he can get over his injury troubles.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Overrated doesn't mean "bad" or "not good enough" for United. Is he good enough for United? Yes, he is a good and useful defender to have. Is he among best defenders in PL (as our fans think)? Nope.

Depends on which period you are looking at because post injury it's been inconsistent.

https://footystats.org/players/argentina/lisandro-martinez

41% Clean Sheets
11 Clean Sheets in 27 Games

87th Percentile

Based on last season then the answer is yes. The per 90 conceded stat is not great but I honestly can't remember many goals where I would have pinned it down to him (for majority blame); we also had some bad thrashings, which yes he was part of but skews it somewhat.

The other stats are pretty interesting as well where he's in the 90's+ for passing, clearances, shots blocked and high 80's for tackles and interceptions. As the overall package, he's the real deal.

Can he continue from last season? Well ignoring the beginning of the season (I know that's a biggie) where we were collectively shite, in his brief 2-3 game spell comeback in Jan-Feb, where he was arguably our best player in those games, then yes. The issue is if he can come back again in his own time because now we have more centre backs injured.

 

[El Jefe]

i maintain that it’s unlikely we’ll ever have a great defence with him in a back four. He’s very talented on the ball and is extremely tenacious and brave but his height and lack of pace will always leave us a little vulnerable.

In the right setup, I think he could be outstanding in a back 3 in the way Azpilicueta was for Chelsea under Conte.

When you watch him he makes defending look fun and I think that’s why some of us tend to overrate him a little. I’d easily take Gabriel and Van der Ven over him.

 

[Fobal]

He is a fantastic defender, way better than many here think.
Yet if this disarray Man Utd and his injuries will take a toll on his perfomances, we don't know, yet so far in such a "stupid" team in terms of tactical awarness, loosing the ball constantly and so many headless chicken players making anyone exposed constantly, he already did great.

The height thing it's silly, he is great in the air and constantly anticipates where the ball will go, clearly it's not his best asset, like other defenders will not have his reading, comittment or technique.
He might lack pace in comparison to others, but he is extremely intelligent, while not being a snail either and BTW even among the best defenders, many weren't exactly sprinters either.

His character is trully important and was vital to obtain more than one result past season and when he returned for a short period of time before this unfortunate last injury.
The only real problem will be the need of Man Utd to have him back urgently in his best form and as sual not in the ebst secnario, also the way he'll presuure himself and how all this will affect his fitness, another potential injury or going over the top if he does not manage that he does not have to be teh saviour and it will demand a serious overhaul from this tem in terms of tactis and even players.

 

[thegregster]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

FFS.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

I actually thought when he returned vs Brentford that he’d pick up another injury in the next couple of weeks. Much quicker than I thought but not surprised at all. Seems like the start of something bad

 

[AdNani]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

FFS.

United player Rushed back from Injury. I’m shocked

 

[Cpt Negative]

Starting to turn into Darren Anderton this lad

 

[Teja]

fecking hell .. how many times does he gets rushed back and injured again? That whole Argentina training was a fiasco too.

Should've just thrown Case / Amrabat at CB in the Brentford game.

 

[CloneMC16]

How the hell is he injured again. Feck me man.

 

[IRELANDUNITED]

My god, injured again

 

[Vidooq]

Now I'm starting to get worried about Martinez and his injury proness. The previous 2 injuries were not the ones that you'd worry about with a player, but muscle injuries so soon after a long period of layoff. Our medical department needs rewamping, as this can not be coincidence.

 

[MrBrightside1989]

Johnny Evans has been signing of the season!

 

[JinnerJamie]

fecking laughable at this stage

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Can’t even call him a good signing at this point. And my god we need at LEAST 2 top CB signings this summer.

 

[E-mal]

Johnny Evans has been signing of the season!

We need to keep him for next season, he has been our best defender this season. And we need two new starting centre backs in the summer, dont care what people think of Martinez

 

[2 man midfield]

Never mind the football league, INEOS need to start doing their head hunting at BUPA

 

[siw2007]

I am guessing that after a long lay off, he has over worked in training and strained the muscle.

I would have hoped that the coaching team would have managed his fitness better. This is a pretty damning moment in our season.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Oh feck off. This is just ridiculous now..

 

[Hester_manc]

He is made of glass

 

[jem]

I love Martinez, but it's getting to the point where cannot be counted on. Suddenly CB is becoming a big problem.