Martial could learn a bit from players like Milner or even our Herrera who despite not being world class work their socks off and never complain about tactics, position changes or manager's treatment.
Martial has got to remain at United | No, he hasn't been unfollowing United players on Instagram
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It's a bit unfair comparing a relatively young player to an experienced player still arguably in his prime. Players develop by playing, I'm not saying Martial will reach the level of Sanchez (maybe he will) but reading of the game takes time to develop.
I don't think anyone is really saying that Martial is currently a better player than Sanchez, it's just that Martial has a lot of potential - potential that could perhaps make him a better player than Sanchez when he gets to the same age.
I think Mourinho should of done a better job utilising Martial and integrating Sanchez into the team.
Martial also drew the short straw when Ibrahimovic joined. Jose seems to be prioritising short term success, over long term, and clearly prefers to use his more experienced players (which is no shock I guess).
It went well with Pogba, isnt it? Also, his head too big for his body Isco remember? Bebe anyone? For all his greatness, by no means he is without faults sometimes
I think he took over that accolade from Januzaj.
I think he's our most talented player but I won't lose any sleep over him leaving for two reasons. The first being that I want him to fulfill his potential and playing more often will help him do so. The second being if José's going to be here for more than another year and just doesn't see him in his plans as a first teamer, we, as a club, are better off selling him and buying a player who will help José turn us into the team he feels is best capable of winning the big ones. It'll just be a waste of a season for Martial and United otherwise. I say United because if he does stay despite not being in José's plans, there'll be less room for reinforcement in more pressing areas of the squad (ie the right side of attack).
I say all this as someone who is José out and as someone who rates Martial as our best talent, too. What's the point in keeping him if José isn't going to trust him? There's no point if the club feel that José's going to be here for more than his usual stay at clubs.
I agree and this is all true. I think mentality is a very important attribute for Mourinho teams as he wants fighters and Martial tends to be a bit laid back. Additionally both he and Rashford play on the left and it's really hard to earn all 3 equal minutes in the left.
The best part is if only Martial would realize that as far as we can tell....Mourinho will always play you when you earn your place. Look he benched Pogba for McTominay when he wasn't playing well. People complain he always plays Lukaku but it's because he's vital for defending set pieces as well as his work rate even when he's not scoring wears out defenders.
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If he leaves I'll be highly PISSED off. The talent is obvious, and he's still young with plenty of growth. He simply needs consistent opportunities.
He will become another KDB, Salah situation where in a few years he's bossing it for another club and we look stupid because of fecking Mourinho's stubbornness!
He will become another KDB, Salah situation where in a few years he's bossing it for another club and we look stupid because of fecking Mourinho's stubbornness!
We fecking get it, bore off for God's sake.
It doesn't need repeating 5 times on every fecking page, tedious as feck. Martial could just as easily go on to be the next Cuadrado, Juan Mata, Schurle.
My god, how many times does it need repeating about the Chelsea players that were 1st choice ahead of those players.
Salah, De Bruyne and Lukaku all needed another 3-4 years to develop to become what they are now. Their sales were nothing to do with Jose.
Salah, De Bruyne and Lukaku all needed another 3-4 years to develop to become what they are now. Their sales were nothing to do with Jose.
Yeah it's frustrating seeing this repeated ad nauseum. All three players came good because of the greater playing time allowed by leaving, if they'd continued to rot on the bench because of established well performing starters they'd not be the players they are.
If we want to avoid a repeat we need to set a loan without a guaranteed option to buy and let Martial get more playing time elsewhere as right now it's apparent that he doesn't fit what Mou wants in a player.
Thing is I'm not sure clubs nor Martial will happily agree to that and would rather any deal be permanent.
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It is quite funny how the fans who are blindfolded by an overwhelming love for Jose are trying to convince others that this isn't a mistake waiting to happen & a mistake that has happened previously.
@OldSchoolManc @Regulus Arcturus Black @vangagal and plenty plenty more..
This isn't about Martial just being some youngster the age of Lukaku, Salah & De bryune - there is plenty of youngsters who go through these problems everyday.
However De bryune, Salah, Lukaku were sold because of Jose's tactical incapacity to build a functional team with a core gameplan.
1)I remember when Jose was asking Salah to do more defensive work on the right & to track back.
sounds awfully familiar doesn't it? How did that get the best out of Salah never mind if he was a baby - he wasn't going to get the best out of a player who is suited to playing a high pressures forwards role to attack the space in between the RB and the RCB with pace. Kl0pp has built a team that has a style of play & a game plan that their squad knows off by heart.
2) same thing happened with de bryune; Hazard was given an almost individualistic role to play on the left; Oscar was preferred to de bryune centrally due to the more defensive work Oscar did & de bryune went to the right hand side & was asked to do a crazy amount of defensive work which is not the way to get the best out of him - you play him centrally in between the opponent defense & midfield with the team around him & he has done wonders as a hybrid AM/Cm under Pep. Again a team who knows their game plan inside out as well as the rest of the league.
Lukaku - asked to go to the right wing because Jose won't look at his squad & dream about being flexible playing a dual striker plan - instead standard 451 or a similar alternative & Lukaku gets put into the right.
Now - Martial - he is a forward who plays centrally, is able to take on the central defenders face on with the ball to feet with the ability to shift the ball left or right in to the channels. He is a player that is suited to a team that has a core game plan that gets the best out of him as well as the rest of the team. Off the top of my head; Martial would be almost a near perfect partner to play off of Lukaku on the left channel whilst Romelu plays on the right channel - the latter being better there than centrally. They could literally bounce the ball each other whilst taking on the defence. Martial & the way he dribbles is suited to create space on the sides if we ever decide to play false 9 too. Absolutely none of these tactics are going to happen under Jose because the guy is inflexible. He hasn't built an understanding of how the game should be played. Selling Martial because he isn't useful for Jose is a mistake - if the next manager who is open to getting the best out of his squad deems Martial to not be good enough - I will drive him off from old Trafford himself.
However, Jose has not managed to get the best out of his own players like Lukaku (better RF than St) Pogba (needs to be allowed more time on the ball on the ground & that is not just sorted by adding in another midfielder), Lindelof (blind is better), Bailey (Rash as Smalling in defence needs a calm head around him) etc.
@OldSchoolManc @Regulus Arcturus Black @vangagal and plenty plenty more..
This isn't about Martial just being some youngster the age of Lukaku, Salah & De bryune - there is plenty of youngsters who go through these problems everyday.
However De bryune, Salah, Lukaku were sold because of Jose's tactical incapacity to build a functional team with a core gameplan.
1)I remember when Jose was asking Salah to do more defensive work on the right & to track back.
sounds awfully familiar doesn't it? How did that get the best out of Salah never mind if he was a baby - he wasn't going to get the best out of a player who is suited to playing a high pressures forwards role to attack the space in between the RB and the RCB with pace. Kl0pp has built a team that has a style of play & a game plan that their squad knows off by heart.2) same thing happened with de bryune; Hazard was given an almost individualistic role to play on the left; Oscar was preferred to de bryune centrally due to the more defensive work Oscar did & de bryune went to the right hand side & was asked to do a crazy amount of defensive work which is not the way to get the best out of him - you play him centrally in between the opponent defense & midfield with the team around him & he has done wonders as a hybrid AM/Cm under Pep. Again a team who knows their game plan inside out as well as the rest of the league.
Lukaku - asked to go to the right wing because Jose won't look at his squad & dream about being flexible playing a dual striker plan - instead standard 451 or a similar alternative & Lukaku gets put into the right.
Now - Martial - he is a forward who plays centrally, is able to take on the central defenders face on with the ball to feet with the ability to shift the ball left or right in to the channels. He is a player that is suited to a team that has a core game plan that gets the best out of him as well as the rest of the team. Off the top of my head; Martial would be almost a near perfect partner to play off of Lukaku on the left channel whilst Romelu plays on the right channel - the latter being better there than centrally. They could literally bounce the ball each other whilst taking on the defence. Martial & the way he dribbles is suited to create space on the sides if we ever decide to play false 9 too. Absolutely none of these tactics are going to happen under Jose because the guy is inflexible. He hasn't built an understanding of how the game should be played. Selling Martial because he isn't useful for Jose is a mistake - if the next manager who is open to getting the best out of his squad deems Martial to not be good enough - I will drive him off from old Trafford himself.
However, Jose has not managed to get the best out of his own players like Lukaku (better RF than St) Pogba (needs to be allowed more time on the ball on the ground & that is not just sorted by adding in another midfielder), Lindelof (blind is better), Bailey (Rash as Smalling in defence needs a calm head around him) etc.
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Wow. This bring the debate to another level.
Incase you have short memory. Many fans here watch his debut goal against Liverpool and that beatiful goal alone has put him in special place in United history.
Adding to that reminder above, his winning goal against Everton in FA Cup semifinal help the Club to the final and win the FA Cup that year.
He carried the team that season. Base on that memories, many of us here believe he can do better and become great player if been given chance.
And please, dont say other fans blind just because they have different opinion from you.
I just hope, although I know it wont happen, that for the last 4 league games we have martial on the left, and simply put sanchez where we used to play mata all the time. Think about it, what did mata do "on the right"? He spent most of his time free roaming around the offensive area, rarely was on the right, and popped up everywhere. That is literally exactly what sanchez is doing well "on the left" right now. Put sanchez in that spot, allow him to create wherever (although this still does nothing to solve our empty on the right problem offensively) and allow him to be a better, more dynamic version of what we asked mata to do. What harm do we have for trying this out the last 4 games of the season? We are essentially locked in to the 2/3 spot, which is really purely semantics/mou arguing points at this stage. Allow sanchez to occupy that free role, and start with martial to see if he can fit in the attack with sanchez and lukaku.
Well you see @FILF, as far as I'm concerned this is possibly a huge mistake waiting to happen, a la Pique, Pogba et al. I very much doubt there's a United fan around that doesn't recognise that risk.
That said, I don't see Martial as having done enough yet to warrant a position as a 100% starter at United, and if he can't accept that, just like with Pogba... there's only one outcome.
Quite why you think I'm so "in love" with Mourinho for thinking like that I have no idea.
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What a post lad! Deserves a Like all day. Not only has he achieved some good things so far - but they say martial has achieved nothing when the same cups and league positions that Jose has achieved is given as a reason for the latter to stay.
I'm torn on this one. Martial hasn't developed his game since his fantastic first season but yet we can all see his incredible potential. Yet despite all that potential Lingard has been a substantially more productive player for us, Sanchez is simply better right now and at least as I see it Rashford offers a dimension that Martial doesn't.
I'd hate to see Martial go, but unless he's able to raise his game or accept being a squad man it's probably better for all concerned that we cash in on him and let him restart his career elsewhere. I doubt in the end he goes to Barcelona or Real. The Juve rumor sound legit to me.
I'd hate to see Martial go, but unless he's able to raise his game or accept being a squad man it's probably better for all concerned that we cash in on him and let him restart his career elsewhere. I doubt in the end he goes to Barcelona or Real. The Juve rumor sound legit to me.
This is so true.
Martial is talented - no doubt. Could he be a world beater? Damn right
Will he under Jose? The signs suggest no
As above, it looks as if Jose is here to stay.
Therefore, in order for Jose to succeed - he's got to have the right players playing the way he wants. Martial is one of many who probably don't hit this bracket for him, which is a shame for the player in truth.
Its very apparent Sanchez will be his LW 1st choice without question.
I've never been a fan of Jose's appointment but agree with the post above
That's fair enough, no one is saying Martial ought to be as good as Sanchez right now, but there are some who seem to think he is. And if Sanchez is indeed the better player, I don't see why it's a problem that Martial is being benched for him. Is it better to have one of the best players in the league in his prime or a youngster who may or may not ever reach that level?
People talk about Cristiano like that kind of development trajectory is normal when actually it's very much the exception. Bear in mind that we were also in for Ronaldinho that summer, and the CR move happened largely because that deal fell apart. It's not strange for a manager to prefer the established star over the potential one.
Why is this thread always on the front page? Surely absolutely nothing has happened to talk about other than repeating the same arguments?
You make a very good point....but what if he becomes the next KDB or Salah?
Answer... it doesn't matter if we have the next Roberto Carlos, Ronaldo and Roy Keane! Lol
Because martial & Rashford are both strikers - significantly good ones at that. There is absolutely no reason to stick with one striker when Lukaku looks like he could use someone playing upfront with him. Martial is being asked to compete Sanchez because martial has no chance being a striker under Jose - both by sheer tactics & Jose's strictness in preference of one type of striker.
Martial, Rashford, Lukaku and even Sanchez is some crazy list of forwards but we stick to playing one centrally & everyone supplying him. It is some backwards style of football I thought we had left behind after the whole team was playing around RVN.
Seriously those 4 forwards are 3 crazy strikers and one WC LW/CF in Sanchez. Jose has managed to tone down people's expectations of this squad to cover his own poor adaptation to the squad.
Imagine Smalling, Blind, Bailly together - that is a WC defence with a mix of everything & everyone's weaknesses are supported by their defensive partners. However Jose has convinced fans that playing a defensive unit utilizing players like that or forwards like martial & Rashford forming combinations with each other is not capable.
That is false. Jose prefers individualistic players with roles rather than formation of units & partnerships within the squad - this has significantly shown up in his tactics & his possible sales that are going to occur.
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Excellent post. The reason everybody is beating about KDB/Salah is because it is so fecking obvious to see what's going on. Martial will never be a defensive winger - he can not track back. His best attributes are running at defenders. Isolate him with a defender 1v1 like Scholes used to with Ronaldo/Valencia. That is the way Utd have always gotten the best of their wingers.It is quite funny how the fans who are blindfolded by an overwhelming love for Jose are trying to convince others that this isn't a mistake waiting to happen & a mistake that has happened previously.
@OldSchoolManc @Regulus Arcturus Black @vangagal and plenty plenty more..
This isn't about Martial just being some youngster the age of Lukaku, Salah & De bryune - there is plenty of youngsters who go through these problems everyday.
However De bryune, Salah, Lukaku were sold because of Jose's tactical incapacity to build a functional team with a core gameplan.
1)I remember when Jose was asking Salah to do more defensive work on the right & to track back.
2) same thing happened with de bryune; Hazard was given an almost individualistic role to play on the left; Oscar was preferred to de bryune centrally due to the more defensive work Oscar did & de bryune went to the right hand side & was asked to do a crazy amount of defensive work which is not the way to get the best out of him - you play him centrally in between the opponent defense & midfield with the team around him & he has done wonders as a hybrid AM/Cm under Pep. Again a team who knows their game plan inside out as well as the rest of the league.
Lukaku - asked to go to the right wing because Jose won't look at his squad & dream about being flexible playing a dual striker plan - instead standard 451 or a similar alternative & Lukaku gets put into the right.
Now - Martial - he is a forward who plays centrally, is able to take on the central defenders face on with the ball to feet with the ability to shift the ball left or right in to the channels. He is a player that is suited to a team that has a core game plan that gets the best out of him as well as the rest of the team. Off the top of my head; Martial would be almost a near perfect partner to play off of Lukaku on the left channel whilst Romelu plays on the right channel - the latter being better there than centrally. They could literally bounce the ball each other whilst taking on the defence. Martial & the way he dribbles is suited to create space on the sides if we ever decide to play false 9 too. Absolutely none of these tactics are going to happen under Jose because the guy is inflexible. He hasn't built an understanding of how the game should be played. Selling Martial because he isn't useful for Jose is a mistake - if the next manager who is open to getting the best out of his squad deems Martial to not be good enough - I will drive him off from old Trafford himself.
However, Jose has not managed to get the best out of his own players like Lukaku (better RF than St) Pogba (needs to be allowed more time on the ball on the ground & that is not just sorted by adding in another midfielder), Lindelof (blind is better), Bailey (Rash as Smalling in defence needs a calm head around him) etc.
Yes, you want Martial to work hard - but he should not be playing where he has to continuously look over his shoulder to see where the fullback is. The chance that Rashford missed the other day against Spurs on the counter, Martial would take it. He's a much better player when not asked to do defending and to focus on attacking first. It's so painfully obvious yet he's on his way out.
Nonsense, Giggs, Beckham, Sharpe, Kanchelskis all worked their asses off defending.
Martial need to be a damn site closer to Ronaldo with his output before we can relieve him of those duties.
if you want your answer who is a better player between Lukaku and Martial, just ask any neutral or supporter of Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea Arsenal or Tottenham who they would want in their team, the unanimous answer will be Martial. Not everyone is blind not to see the amazing potential this guy has which is waiting to explode under right manager.
I agree that Jose has his distinct style in which Lukaku is more suitable, but it should not come at a cost of future of Utd.
I agree that Jose has his distinct style in which Lukaku is more suitable, but it should not come at a cost of future of Utd.
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I get your point but I doubt if it shows the whole picture.
The same Jose bought and retained players that served Chelsea well for a long time. Carvalho, Ferreira, Mikel and more recently Willian, Courtois etc.
It's hit and miss for most managers in football. The misses become more pronounced the bigger your brand is in the game.
Very good post. I have always said that we fans often know little before emphatically concluding on issues.
Remember Jose once advising Martial to listen to him more and listen less to his agent? That statement was loaded with meaning in my opinion. It happened to be at a time when there were lots of rumours about Martial wanting to leave.
I will not claim I know much but we need to be open to various possibilities.
Jose does have one tendency. If he sees that a player wants to leave, he often starts to cut down on the playing time of that player while giving one of the more committed ones opportunities. Maybe Martial has left enough signs that he prefers to leave.
Has anyone mentioned lukaku De Bruyne and Salah yet?
Fairly sure there were reports about how he had been waiting for an offer since early December around January time and was confused as to why United were stalling. Don't think he wanted out back then. Might be getting him mixed up with De Gea though.
Just have a feeling he is gone. We will regret this big time long after Mourinho is done with United. This team should have been built on Martial and Rashford, with complimentary players providing ammunition for them.
No he won’t. There’s no evidence to suggest he will develop into a world class talent. He’s hardly developed at all since his arrival and if he bothered to put a shift in on either wing he’d be getting games.
You can’t keep cutting in from the edge of the box and expect a decent PL fullback not to work you out.
Martial has potential but his application appears to be poor. History is littered with players who were talented but didn’t have the grit to reach their potential.
Plus, tell me how getting your girlfriend to publicly call out your boss on Twitter is ever a good idea?
Rashford has developed season on season, Martial has stagnated and likes a sulk instead of grafting, which is what’s needed if we’re to be champions of anything.
We won’t regret shit, we’ll have someone playing left wing next year who can cross a ball and actually wants to play for us.
Martial has been treated like shite, maybe that's why he was sulking. Different people need to be treated with different approach, you cannot treat everyone the same. Even though he is making millions, he is still a young kid.
Treated like shite? Some competition was introduced to the squad to encourage players to kick on and develop and he’s responded by throwing his toys out of be pram.
We wouldn’t have even been sniffing around Sanchez if he was developing and playing well and the second we signed him, he’s gone MIA. Rashford on the other hand has accepted the challenge and is constantly knocking on Sanchez’s door for the left wing position.
Done with you. Enjoy Mourinho while he lasts.
What is the difference between Martial and players like Di Maria and Hazard that occupied the same position as him at the same age? Their ability to be dynamic (move through the thirds), their ability to be playmakers, their ability to perform multiple functions in the team.
Martial is a pure forward like Ronaldo and Salah, which means in order for the team to function he needs to score close to a goal a game because his influence on the pitch is limited to the final third. That is what the manager means when he says that Martial needs to be 'exceptional' to get into the team.
Martial is poor at providing defensive cover, Martial is poor at pressing the ball, Martial has limited midfield capabilities, he's just a body when he doesn't have the ball. The only way to make up for that is to score at a ridiculous rate when he does have the ball. His scoring record is nothing special, after he had that fantastic period coming on as a sub, you would want him to kick on and move up a level but he was arguably better coming on as a sub than playing as a starter.
Martial is a pure forward like Ronaldo and Salah, which means in order for the team to function he needs to score close to a goal a game because his influence on the pitch is limited to the final third. That is what the manager means when he says that Martial needs to be 'exceptional' to get into the team.
Martial is poor at providing defensive cover, Martial is poor at pressing the ball, Martial has limited midfield capabilities, he's just a body when he doesn't have the ball. The only way to make up for that is to score at a ridiculous rate when he does have the ball. His scoring record is nothing special, after he had that fantastic period coming on as a sub, you would want him to kick on and move up a level but he was arguably better coming on as a sub than playing as a starter.
It really is obvious for people who watch almost all top leagues in the weekends, what Martial can do with a ball Lukaku can only dream of, hes a good goalscorer and has some force about him but thats it.Strikers need to be more then goalscorers now a days, just look at all the top teams, not one of them have someone as limited as lukaku.
Or maybe the coach need to give him instructions? teach him the simple thing like pressing, nurture him like a top manager should to get the best of said players abillity.
I thought Sanchez would have taken the number 10 spot and that would have allowed us to start Martial, but by the looks of it; Martial has been sidelined which upsetting to see for a player of his talents. I really do hope we do not sell him as he will compliment many teams with his pace and ability.