Being backed in the transfer market, feel its a make or break season for him. Needs to deliver top 4 for them.
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
Quite a few people praising the work Arteta is doing but they still to address major issues with their squad. They need a CM as Partey and Xhaka have a poor injury record and behind them they only have Lokonga. Their number one priority should be Tielemans but seem to be stalling for some reason.
The fact they were after Rafinha does lead me to be believe that they will be switching to a 4-3-3 this season.
------------------------Jesus-------------------------
Martinelli----------------------------------Rafinha
-------------Saka------------------Odegaard-------
-------------------------Partey----------------------------
The fact they were after Rafinha does lead me to be believe that they will be switching to a 4-3-3 this season.
------------------------Jesus-------------------------
Martinelli----------------------------------Rafinha
-------------Saka------------------Odegaard-------
-------------------------Partey----------------------------
I don't think Arsenal has the quality of players United, Chelsea and Spurs do. I would place Chelsea slightly above United and Spurs on squad quality mainly because of the defenders they lost this summer (if not they would be far ahead). United & Spurs are more an equal footing for me, Superb attacking players at both teams when in form, average midfield, shitty defence (Although United's I think severely underperformed). Arsenal for me do not have the quality of players in attack all of this teams do, have just as average a midfield and no better defence.
Arsenal have a team with alot of potential, they're just probably not ready yet and need another couple of seasons. Saying that though for me Odegaard is the best number 10 in the league and he was experimented with last season as a 8 and played well. So they have quality in areas but are just waiting on the likes of Saka and Martinelli to mature and reach their peak.
Chelsea have alot of issues with their squad. They've just lost their best player in Rudiger, have an aging Kante who needs to be replaced and Thiago Silva is on his last legs. It's a big window for them as they need atleast one of De Ligt and Kounde if not both. For me Kovacic is their only world class CM, Jorginho is too hot and cold, they certainly need someone in there which is why they were in for Tchouameni. Up top they have no recognised striker and no world class wingers, Havertz is their 1 star player but he is yet to establish himself as a true 9 or 10.
I agree that Spurs are poor at the back but look to be getting Lenglet on loan, as LCB in a 3 he is a great buy. He and Romero at RCB could address alot of their issues back there. With Bissouma coming in, him and Bentancur in CM could be a quality midfield partnership, With a world class manager to go with it all they're probably this season's dark horses.
Their base level was higher because they are a top 3 club and recent European & World Champion. Those facts alone tell you their team and squad were better than Arsenal's.
Now, yeah they are replacing players, but so are we. I'm not judging how theyve been in the market, when we've not been great either. The point was about spending in relation to our rivals here. Everyone focuses on what Arsenal have spent & seem to discount other clubs, because the headline was Arsenal spent most in Europe...yeah for 1 window by about £10M or £15M. That also doesn't take into account wage bills & the like which affect the profile of player you can buy, and is a very simplistic view not taking account of how clubs actually ammorotize transfer fees and wages when someone like Ronaldo is costing £2M per month.
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I think the fact that you judge their base level to not be high, despite them being very recent European champions shows the strength of the league.
We have City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal, United and now Newcastle all vying for for just four spots. In addition, West Ham and Leicester are capable of gate crashing, though perhaps not consistently.
Everyone is spending money. Interestingly, the league seems to have wises up, as no one seems to be massively overpaying in this transfer window. Teams seems to be taking more of a measured approach where they target particular profiles of players for specific roles to raise the quality of their squad.
There have been no Ronaldo / Lukaku / Grealish type signing thus far. No teams have splashed huge money on a player simply because they are good and available.
Didn't realize they had signed this kid Marquinos. Supposed to be good?
Don't know much about him to be honest, just that Wolves thought they had agreed a deal for him on a pre contract and aren't very happy.
Thought even his YouTube were a bit underwhelming, think we are going to assess pre season but likely to go out on loan.
I was also hit YouTube immediately and thought his highlights were a bit “meh”. Conversely, the club and some Brazilian ex-players / pundits seem upset that he’s leaving.
Martinelli came in massively under the radar and was a year younger. If Marquinhos turns out even half as good we would have bagged ourselves a decent squaddie.
Real Madrid are current European champions but if they had to replace 4 starters tomorrow I wouldn't say they are strenghtening.
Depends who you replaced them with, surely?
Rudiger is a big loss. Christensen also, to a lesser extent. But Lukaku wasn’t playing well at all, while Azpi and Alonso are past their prime. Only two of those players are tricky to upgrade on.
So far, I'm thinking the same. Chelsea have stalled, have lost important players and are facing a retool which might or might not work. United have of course regressed, and are facing a bigger retool yet - so big that it is unlikely to be completed in a single window. Spurs improved a lot last season, and are bringing in so much quality this window. And Arsenal are on a credible upwards trajectory, to an extent that it's plausible that a couple of additions might push them to the next level, if they're the right ones.
Right now, I'd say it looks like the big 6 are back in business, and that they furthermore break down pretty clearly as 2+4.
That being said, the most distinguishing characteristic of all of those four teams is uncertainty. Much more so than I thought at the same time last year.
I'd argue only Rudiger would get in their first choice XI last season.
Chalobah - Silva - Rudiger was the defence for both domestic cup finals for instance.
James and Chilwell are first choice full backs, and Havertz was preferred down the middle to Lukaku in the end
Well. Azpi and Alonso may be past their primes, but they played pretty key roles on last year's team. Christensen played in half the PL games last season, which is a significant contribution. And Lukaku of course was brought in because the team really, really needed a goalscoring striker, so what you need to replace isn't what Lukaku brought, but what he was meant to bring.
Basically, that's a gutted defence, with 2 of 4 full-backs and 3 of 5 CBs gone (considering Azpi as both a FB and CB). All 4 of them good players, who between them had 96 starts in the PL, out of the 190 man-games you get from a 5-man defence in a PL season. That's a pretty tall order to replace, never mind upgrade on. I'll be impressed if they can find the quality to pull that off, and if Tuchel is able to integrate them without losing too much in the way of defensive solidity.
You could say it's all or nothing...
Season 2 - The New Batch.
Does anyone else feel a bit sick for Arsene Wenger that this guy Arteta has been allowed to spend so much more than the former was? Wenger was a brilliant manager for them and he didn't quite get the support he needed from the club, especially towards the end of his time there.
Not at all. Wenger was terrible in the market in his last 6-7 years at the club, other than when he was trading on his reputation to bring in an established world class player like Alexis or Ozil. He completely lost his eye for a player and then in his final couple years basically burnt through money desperately trying to hold onto his job. Wenger's actions in the market from from roughly 2014-2018 are a huge part of the reason why the club has needed to rebuild nearly the entire roster in the last few years under Edu/Arteta.
Coming into this summer, Arsenal had spent less on transfer fees since Arteta was appointed than any other big six club (assuming Spurs takes up the options on Kulu/Romero) other than Liverpool. His spending is very overstated. All big clubs in the PL are spending a lot of money.
I’m generally quite supportive of Arteta, but this is a fair point. KSE didn’t want to invest much while Usmanov still had his 30% stake. Since they’ve become 100% shareholders and taken Arsenal private, they’ve found their chequebook. Not only have they sanctioned transfer outlays, but they paid off what was remaining of the stadium loan. Now Arsenal’s only debt is to KSE as opposed to the bank. This has freed up additional funds.
It would have been nice for Wenger to have access to the resources Arteta is now enjoying. It’s more to do with timing than the preference of one Manager over the other. Wenger said he would leave Arsenal in a better state for his successors and he certainly did so.
I'd say he was a victim of circumstance with the timing of the stadium move (along with fan expectations not aligning with the reality of the situation that they were in).
On a side note I'd be wary about setting an expectation of "4th place or Bust" for Arteta just because he signed a couple of players.
They are still a mile off City and Liverpool (who both have better managers), I'd assume Chelsea are going to make a couple of signings (Tuchel is superior too) and Spurs have already signed lots of players that improve their first team and squad depth (along with Conte).
That's without even mentioning Manchester United so it's a bit bizarre that all of those 6 Clubs are supposed to fit into the top 4 and anyone who doesn't is a failure/ loser just because they spent x amount, are a big club or had a certain amount of time.
As long as they are in the hunt for the top 4 places by the end of the season I'd say he's done an ok job, getting 4th (considering the competition) would be a good job and any higher than that would be a great job.
Yes but if you want to be a top 4 club (or better), you can't settle for an "ok job" forever. I guess you can just wait out the cycle and hope other clubs drop off while you keep building but there's no guarantees in such a situation. If a better manager becomes available I'd take the chance with both hands if I were Arsenal. Vieira will be a contender for example if he can put together another good season or two at Palace.
It's a good point, 2 teams have to miss out each year. But if it's your team every year, which it is for Arsenal at the moment, you have to try something new or it will continue to always be your team. One year it could be Chelsea, but you'd never expect them to miss out 2 years in a row.
I don't think a club like Arsenal have much other options right now, save for finding and appointing the next Klopp.
If they can do that (and convince him to come to Arsenal) then great but until then they are really a (sporadic) top 4 club at best.
I agree that Viera did a fine job last season due to the rebuild (only 4 points better than Hodgson but blooding new players) but if I give him that credit for getting results (steadying the ship?) while making big changes I have to give the same to Arteta.
I get it but there's plenty of other teams that miss out regularly and will in the future too, if a club like Arsenal were to make the top 4 I would expect it to be the exception rather than the rule.
City, United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Spurs all have an advantage over them at the moment and they should be looking over their shoulders because I think Newcastle will be gunning for them soon.
The year before Arteta took over I think they were 5h right? And last year they were...5th. what was there to steady? He spent shit loads doing it anyway. I'm not saying he's bad but is he in the top 6 managers in the league? I don't think he is.
Well sure they came 5th the year before but when he took over they were in 10th I think mid way through the season and in free fall?
An Arsenal fan will have to help me out here but I'm pretty sure he wasn't brought in because all was going to plan?
In the mean time he's shipped out a load of highly paid players who either weren't performing or a bad influence on the squad/ dressing room (or both).
If this is true...
Then there's not much he can do really, Arsenal dont exist in a vacuum and if those around you are spending at a higher rate than you are (as well as starting off at a higher point than you are) then it's not really a stick to beat him with.
I don't think he's in the top 4 managers in the league (Pep, Klopp, Tuchel and Conte) but he's 5/6th IMO depending on how ETH settles.
So if Arsenal have the 5th/6th biggest spending power, the 5th/6th best manager and the 5th/6th best squad in the league I don't know why there are any expectations for him to consistently get 4th.
As I said before if there is someone out there who can do more than what he is doing with the squad he has than by all means replace him but good luck convincing that guy to go there VS going for one of the bigger jobs across Europe.
That was the season before. Had we still been in 5th… we wouldn’t have been looking for a new Manager. As it was, Arteta took us over with us in 11th.
Emery had lost the dressing room. I have a lot of respect for his effort to learn English, but his lack of fluency really seemed to hold him back. Especially as he was a fan of quite detailed tactical instructions. I think that’s why he’s performed so well with La Liga clubs. He’s a good Manager, but it was a bad fit. We had a lot of fires to put out at the club (including a Director of Football who may have been criminally corrupt). Arteta and Edu have steadied the ship after a rocky second season.
They do have to push on now, though.
Well put. In fact, the idea of Arsenal finishing in the top 4 was deemed laughable at the start of last season. Then the goalposts shifted and Arteta was a failure for falling at the last hurdle.
It’s easy to sensationalise. Arteta is not the second coming of Pep. He’s also not a fraud. At the moment, he’s just a Manager who is making a decent fist of his first job.
There seem to be three successful models for working with a Manager
1) Hire a generational talent and give complete control (City - Pep / Liverpool - Klopp)
2) Plug a Manager into a well-resourced, expertly run sporting infrastructure (Bayern - Pep / Chelsea - Various)
3) Take a risk on a talented rookie (Barca - Pep / Real Madrid - Zidane)
We don’t have the pull or financial firepower for (1) or (2), so we’ve gone for (3).
A couple points of interest…
Our owners just won the Super Bowl with a rookie Head Coach in his 30’s, so it’s clearly a model they’re comfortable with.
Pep has worked his way through each of the models. I can why City is his longest tenure - they built the club around attracting and retaining a single individual. That’s remarkable when you think of it that way.
5th/6th best manager in the league, don't see it sorry. I don't think he's better than quite a host of the midtable managers. He's probably roughly on par with Moyes.
Yeah, he's just a midtable manager. Probably bottom half.
Fair enough.
I'd say all the rest have their good and bad qualities (as does Arteta) so it's much of a muchness outside of the top quality managers.
Potter and Howe are relatively unproven at the highest level ,though I do rate Potter for how well Brighton are drilled (big season for Howe and if he doesn't continue his end of season success we may see Potter take the reigns and build something there).
I can't stand Rodgers (Loves himself) /Moyes (Coward).
Bruno Lage did a good job last season as did Viera but I need to see more of both (Especially Viera without Gallagher) and it would be interesting to see Frank outside of Brentford. (I'm not even going to mention Gerrard)
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Blimey that team would get smashed!
The obsession with Arteta on this site is hilarious.
Since it was started, this thread has more posts than the Klopp or Pep threads have had during the same time period. It has more posts than the threads on Conte and Pochettino, two managers United was actually heavily linked with hiring.
Since it was started, this thread has more posts than the Klopp or Pep threads have had during the same time period. It has more posts than the threads on Conte and Pochettino, two managers United was actually heavily linked with hiring.
It's because Klopp and Pep always wins, there is nothing much to discuss. On the other hand there is lot of discussion around Arteta and also there is more to laugh at Arsenal.
Yup. It's more amusement and bemusement really.
He's not the 5th/6th best manager in the league. And the whole point of hiring a manager is that he elevates you beyond where you were. Ole despite his mediocrity got us to 3rd and 2nd. Pochettino took Spurs consistently into the top 4 and a CL final. Conte got 4th after joining mid way through a season.
For Arteta to get good financial backing and some still pretending there should be no expectations, is laughable. Nobody said he should consistently get 4th but maybe he should manage it once in his first 3-4 years at least? Especially now that he's spending big? Otherwise why is he even at Arsenal.
Arsenal are not and should not be a training ground for managers. There needs to be a balance between patience and excellence.
He is not the 5th/6th best manager in the league. There are other better managers than him. The whole myth that he is underachieving with Arsenal is what Arsenal board and Arteta have convinced Arsenal fans. I always say the only thing he has done at Arsenal is lower the standards. He is very bery fortunate to be still be managing at such a big club after his mediocre managing job.
So ETH's work with ajax means feck all and somehow Arteta is as good as ETH now
Of course there should be expectations. But it’s also important to keep in mind that short term results aren’t always the most important thing. Arsenal were a complete dumpster fire with almost no young talent to build around, a poisonous team culture, and a roster bloated with overpaid shitters unsuited to the way the game has been trending at the highest level. Edu and Arteta have successfully turned over that roster, stocked it with young talent on reasonable wages, started playing some good stuff at a high tactical level when the right players are available, and created a much more positive culture in the dressing room while also completely changing the atmosphere in the stadium. In the end, all that is much more important than finishing fourth instead of fifth this year or finishing sixth instead of eighth a year before.
But as I said at the beginning, you still need to have expectations, especially once the team building transition period is over. At that point - which is where the club should be after this summer - you need to deliver just like every manager. And if you don’t the club has to find somebody else.
I think that's what he did, they improved when he took over from Emery and won the FA cup (and the community shield which doesn't really count) and has made them "competitive" (at least for 4th) while massively overhauling the squad.
3rd With 66 points , 3 less points than Arteta just came 5th with and a much more talented (at least in theory) and valuable squad at his disposal.
The second place finish, fair enough he hit 74 points, but a big reason for that total being enough to achieve 2nd is Liverpools injury crisis (which Ole references the following season and most on here would agree was a false position).
So yeah Ole hit 66 points the season he took over from Jose and came 6th then he spent a fortune on players and raised United from 6th to third by hitting 66 points again (winning one less game in the process) before hitting 74 and then crashing and burning under the weight of expectation.
Maybe Arteta will suffer the same fate? Who knows?
Conte (as I've stated a bunch already) is a superior manager than Arteta (one of the 4/5 I have above him) and if Poch was around he would be above him too because he is a better more proven manager. Unless I've missed something he isn't a premier league manager.
I didn't say there shouldn't be any expectations.
I just said that if he were to get say 74 points and come 5th (matching Oles second place points total) would that be a failure because 4th hit 75?
I don't think so, but if you think it's 4th or bust that's fair enough.
I didn't say that.
I actually think ETH is superior but will probably have a rough time to begin with , he's most likely closer to Conte/Tuchel and if he can get your team playing cohesively quickly I'll put him right up there with Pep/Klopp.
If you prefer I will just assume that everything will work out for Ten Hag (it most probably will) and Arteta is the 6th on the list (IMO) in the League (going by recent results / performances).
It's not that big of a deal.
I'd say it's a less controversial statement than saying he's a bottom half of the table manager personally.
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