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2020-21 Performances


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spiriticon

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I don’t know what a complete world class package is but most offensive midfielders needed someone to cover for them, simply for team balance. That’s been true for over half a century. Scholes was crap alongside Anderson but great alongside Carrick because he needed support. He was very good alongside Keane but was often replaced by or moved forward by Butt in important games because he created some balance issues in tight games. And Scholes was pretty well rounded as offensive midfielders go. There’s a whole raft of players, past and present, that need someone to cover for them defensively. So unless this complete world class package is limited to a handful of players in his position across the last 50 years of footy, it’s a bit of a false criticism.
Of course there will be periods in the game where others will have to cover for him while he marauds forwards. But like wise with those other players, he will have to do this covering when they move forwards too. Herein lies the problem, when he is required to do that covering more often than not he does not do it well enough.

When Keano went forwards, Scholes covered him. When Xavi pushed forwards, Iniesta covers. It's give and take. With Pogba its all take, and when he does give it's a half assed job. The only exception was WC 2018 where he was not outstanding, but hey ho they won the World Cup.
 

spiriticon

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Do you think they lost because of Pogba?

In the WC they conceded 3 goals against Argentine in the same round but were more clinical in front of goal. Pogba this time was far from the worst offender defensively, and was easily their best attacker which is a problem when you have the likes of Mbappe and Griezmann underperforming massively. He didn't go for glory every time and tried to put their attack on goal whenever possible.
No I don't think they lost because of Pogba. But he did not help their defensive shape. You guys can argue that it's not his problem, it's someone else's. But I think he had a role to play in that.

Pogba was immense in trying to support their attack, but in doing so, not even the mercurial Kante could cover all of the gaps. I did think France's defensive shape was a lot weaker than at WC 2018.
 

Nou_Camp99

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We can disagree without you being childish. I just don't like one side of the truth being talked and the other conviniently forgotten.
If you think he is much better for France then honestly you have no idea what you are talking about.
Hahahahahaha. What utter twaddle.

95% of football fans and pundits think he's better for France than he is for United. He clearly is. Probably because of a certain Chelsea midfielder who plays alongside him who allows him to be the luxury player he is.

You Pogba fans are mental. How you can honestly think he's just as good for us is quite frankly embarrassing.
 

Idxomer

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No I don't think they lost because of Pogba. But he did not help their defensive shape. You guys can argue that it's not his problem, it's someone else's. But I think he had a role to play in that.

Pogba was immense in trying to support their attack, but in doing so, not even the mercurial Kante could cover all of the gaps. I did think France's defensive shape was a lot weaker than at WC 2018.
Agreed, I think a big part of that because they couldn't fill the gap Matuidi left. Rabiot and Tolisso were very underwhelming.
 

spiriticon

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Agreed, I think a big part of that because they couldn't fill the gap Matuidi left. Rabiot and Tolisso were very underwhelming.
Rabiot was ok. Didn't even notice Tolisso. But for me one key difference was Pogba's discipline. Pogba played his defensive role to perfection in that World Cup. I'm sure he didn't like it because it went against his natural showman, but he won the World Cup.

And that's our problem. There are just too many sacrifices required to release the best Pogba. And the reason for that is that he prefers to play in a lot of deeper positions than his defensive talents would allow.
 

Yagami

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Pogba fanboy alert.

I have accepted he has played a good tournament. Also accept he's a much better player for France than he is for us.

However it was his error that led to the game going to ET. The end.
Hahahahahaha. What utter twaddle.

95% of football fans and pundits think he's better for France than he is for United. He clearly is. Probably because of a certain Chelsea midfielder who plays alongside him who allows him to be the luxury player he is.

You Pogba fans are mental. How you can honestly think he's just as good for us is quite frankly embarrassing
.
I know you routinely lose your cool when it comes to Pogba but why are you going in on @kouroux ? He's one of the more balanced posters when it comes Paul, and is French so disregarding his opinion on how Paul plays for his national team just because it doesn't suit your agenda isn't on.
 

Oranges038

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So pretty much like our entire season?
Not really, tournament football is different to a long season, we've seen all the good and bad of Pogba compressed into 4 games.

He's played well for France. He completed 90% of his passes, had a couple of assists and scored a peach of a goal. As an individual all that looks great.

But he gave the ball away in the last minute when it mattered most. That led to the goal that saw the game go to extra time and eventually them being knocked out.

So yeah, overall all them good stats mean fcuk all when he cost his team when it mattered most.
 

Brwned

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Of course there will be periods in the game where others will have to cover for him while he marauds forwards. But like wise with those other players, he will have to do this covering when they move forwards too. Herein lies the problem, when he is required to do that covering more often than not he does not do it well enough.

When Keano went forwards, Scholes covered him. When Xavi pushed forwards, Iniesta covers. It's give and take. With Pogba its all take, and when he does give it's a half assed job. The only exception was WC 2018 where he was not outstanding, but hey ho they won the World Cup.
Those are half-truths, half-truths that are protective of Scholes and critical of Pogba. Which is totally reasonable but we should be open about that. Scholes was dropped for some of the biggest games for Butt because he offered better balance, he had his best season playing with two midfielders behind him picking up the bulk of the defensive work, and he spent most of his time alongside Keane being covered for, it wasn't a "you go forward then I go forward" relationship. He was a better midfielder when people accommodated his defensive weaknesses.

Of course, he did some defensive work, Roy Keane wasn't an island. That is evidently true of Pogba too. If you look at the stats on the previous page, he won the most "duels" of any player this tournament. He made 7 tackles, not on par with Kante's 10, but on par with Pavard. And he "won" 2 tackles from 7, compared to Kante's 2 from 10. Only Kante covered a greater distance than him for France, and he's 22nd in the tournament overall for distance covered, in the same ball park as the likes of Kroos, Koke, De Jong.

People see Kante as a one-man midfield, but Keane was often described as a one-man midfield too, and Scholes benefited from that a lot. A lot of the greatest offensive midfielders in history have had deficiencies that need to be accounted for to achieve perfect balance, or some acceptance of imbalance in the team because the good outweighs the bad. That hasn't prevented them from being called world class, and it hasn't prevented them from winning the biggest trophies. This idea of completeness is a mostly artificial construct. The idea that you can't find a notable deficiency in world class players is demonstrably false.
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

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Hahahahahaha. What utter twaddle.

95% of football fans and pundits think he's better for France than he is for United. He clearly is. Probably because of a certain Chelsea midfielder who plays alongside him who allows him to be the luxury player he is.

You Pogba fans are mental. How you can honestly think he's just as good for us is quite frankly embarrassing.
Is that you, Graeme?
 

JPRouve

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Those are half-truths, half-truths that are protective of Scholes and critical of Pogba. Which is totally reasonable but we should be open about that. Scholes was dropped for some of the biggest games for Butt because he offered better balance, he had his best season playing with two midfielders behind him picking up the bulk of the defensive work, and he spent most of his time alongside Keane being covered for, it wasn't a "you go forward then I go forward" relationship. He was a better midfielder when people accommodated his defensive weaknesses.

Of course, he did some defensive work, Roy Keane wasn't an island. That is evidently true of Pogba too. If you look at the stats on the previous page, he won the most "duels" of any player this tournament. He made 7 tackles, not on par with Kante's 10, but on par with Pavard. And he "won" 2 tackles from 7, compared to Kante's 2 from 10. Only Kante covered a greater distance than him for France, and he's 22nd in the tournament overall for distance covered, in the same ball park as the likes of Kroos, Koke, De Jong.

People see Kante as a one-man midfield, but Keane was often described as a one-man midfield too, and Scholes benefited from that a lot. A lot of the greatest offensive midfielders in history have had deficiencies that need to be accounted for to achieve perfect balance, or some acceptance of imbalance in the team because the good outweighs the bad. That hasn't prevented them from being called world class, and it hasn't prevented them from winning the biggest trophies. This idea of completeness is a mostly artificial construct. The idea that you can't find a notable deficiency in world class players is demonstrably false.
Weren't you a Pogba hater? :nervous:
 

kouroux

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Hahahahahaha. What utter twaddle.

95% of football fans and pundits think he's better for France than he is for United. He clearly is. Probably because of a certain Chelsea midfielder who plays alongside him who allows him to be the luxury player he is.

You Pogba fans are mental. How you can honestly think he's just as good for us is quite frankly embarrassing.
Like I said, you have no clue what you're talking about. You're going based on things you hear and read. Kante himself hasn't been as good for France either since the WC but I guess you never knew that either.
 

Nou_Camp99

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Is that you, Graeme?
Graeme Souness has been spot on all along. He's never once said he's not talented. In fact he's always said he's got loads of ability but it's everything else in his game that is the issue i.e. mentality and drive.

Pogba will always be an enigma and he will never live up to the hype in the PL. Teams simply don't give him the space and time on the ball he craves.
 

Nou_Camp99

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Like I said, you have no clue what you're talking about. You're going based on things you hear and read. Kante himself hasn't been as good for France either since the WC but I guess you never knew that either.
Clueless.
 

Brwned

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Weren't you a Pogba hater? :nervous:
I've probably been described that way at some point! It's a very polarised debate so if you accept Pogba underperformed here or has a deficiency there then you can get labelled as a Pogba hater. It's all a bit weird given Pogba obviously has pros and cons and we weigh those differently, so there will inevitably be some deviation in opinion, and most people don't fit into a binary classification. But hey-ho. I like Pogba. It'd be great if he could do it all but given most players in history haven't been able to do it all, I can live with it.
 

JPRouve

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Hahahahahaha. What utter twaddle.

95% of football fans and pundits think he's better for France than he is for United. He clearly is. Probably because of a certain Chelsea midfielder who plays alongside him who allows him to be the luxury player he is.

You Pogba fans are mental. How you can honestly think he's just as good for us is quite frankly embarrassing.
The only difference between Pogba for France and United is that he plays a slightly different role. He isn't better or more consistent, he sometimes makes ridiculous mistakes(against Turkey for example) and other times he makes incredible passes.
 

GueRed

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He's a luxury player.....

There's an unfair misconception that Paul is lazy. He's not.

He just lacks the required defensive discipline and awareness a centre midfielder should have.

Seen it loads of times over the years it is so fecking easy to run off him and play through him. I feel for his midfield partner as he is expected to do twice the donkeys work to cover his arse.

Pogba is much more effective as a forward attacking player. As we saw for a period last season left wide forward, with limited defensive responsibilties he did well.
 

izzydiggler

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There are plenty of issues with Pogba and there have been many valid criticisms of him over the past 5 years...but he was pretty great these Euros - if he played like that for United, even with some of the lapses, I'd be very happy.
 

kouroux

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I know you routinely lose your cool when it comes to Pogba but why are you going in on @kouroux ? He's one of the more balanced posters when it comes Paul, and is French so disregarding his opinion on how Paul plays for his national team just because it doesn't suit your agenda isn't on.
That's the problem with a lot of caftards. The moment you try to put things into context and give a fair assessment, you're seen as a "fanboy". Specially the ones with agendas, the most insufferable ones
 

rotherham_red

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Pogba had a great game and all, but yeah let's be honest, put him in a 2 even next to Kante, and he's a liability defensively even when he has a great game offensively. He needs to be in a 3 with 2 more defense minded midfielders. That's it. He doesn't know how to defend, he's just not that type of player so people need to stop putting him in those situations where his defensive lapses cost the team.
Yep. It's the same reason why he flattered to deceive as the number 10, both for Juve and for us.

EDIT - It's also no coincidence that the one time he's actually been played in midfield this tournament, France ultimately look more insecure defensively than they had been throughout the tournament as a whole up to that point.

A fantastic talent, the very best in our team for me, but he's just far too tactically deficient to be the main man in either midfield or attack. Which I think Ole, to his credit, has figured out. If Pogba stays, he isn't going to be a fixture in our midfield IMO, he'll be sharing the LW duties with Rashford.
 

spiriticon

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Those are half-truths, half-truths that are protective of Scholes and critical of Pogba. Which is totally reasonable but we should be open about that. Scholes was dropped for some of the biggest games for Butt because he offered better balance, he had his best season playing with two midfielders behind him picking up the bulk of the defensive work, and he spent most of his time alongside Keane being covered for, it wasn't a "you go forward then I go forward" relationship. He was a better midfielder when people accommodated his defensive weaknesses.

Of course, he did some defensive work, Roy Keane wasn't an island. That is evidently true of Pogba too. If you look at the stats on the previous page, he won the most "duels" of any player this tournament. He made 7 tackles, not on par with Kante's 10, but on par with Pavard. And he "won" 2 tackles from 7, compared to Kante's 2 from 10. Only Kante covered a greater distance than him for France, and he's 22nd in the tournament overall for distance covered, in the same ball park as the likes of Kroos, Koke, De Jong.

People see Kante as a one-man midfield, but Keane was often described as a one-man midfield too, and Scholes benefited from that a lot. A lot of the greatest offensive midfielders in history have had deficiencies that need to be accounted for to achieve perfect balance, or some acceptance of imbalance in the team because the good outweighs the bad. That hasn't prevented them from being called world class, and it hasn't prevented them from winning the biggest trophies. This idea of completeness is a mostly artificial construct. The idea that you can't find a notable deficiency in world class players is demonstrably false.
I think Scholes did a lot more defensive work than you are giving him credit for. But regardless, I'm not here to defend Scholesy.

What I would say is that I don't expect Pogba to be free of defiencies, but when he turns on his va-va voom mode, it makes him look outstanding in offense but also really imbalances the team too much. To play in his favoured deep positions, he needs to know which periods of the game to turn it on, which periods of the game to sit back and do his defensive duties. He hasn't quite grasped this tactical nuance yet, even at age 29.

If he wants to play in va-va voom mode all the time like Cristiano, he really needs to go further up the pitch and stay away from midfield. But then comes another criticism: Is he actually good enough to play only in the final third with his G/A record?
 

kouroux

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Those are half-truths, half-truths that are protective of Scholes and critical of Pogba. Which is totally reasonable but we should be open about that. Scholes was dropped for some of the biggest games for Butt because he offered better balance, he had his best season playing with two midfielders behind him picking up the bulk of the defensive work, and he spent most of his time alongside Keane being covered for, it wasn't a "you go forward then I go forward" relationship. He was a better midfielder when people accommodated his defensive weaknesses.

Of course, he did some defensive work, Roy Keane wasn't an island. That is evidently true of Pogba too. If you look at the stats on the previous page, he won the most "duels" of any player this tournament. He made 7 tackles, not on par with Kante's 10, but on par with Pavard. And he "won" 2 tackles from 7, compared to Kante's 2 from 10. Only Kante covered a greater distance than him for France, and he's 22nd in the tournament overall for distance covered, in the same ball park as the likes of Kroos, Koke, De Jong.

People see Kante as a one-man midfield, but Keane was often described as a one-man midfield too, and Scholes benefited from that a lot. A lot of the greatest offensive midfielders in history have had deficiencies that need to be accounted for to achieve perfect balance, or some acceptance of imbalance in the team because the good outweighs the bad. That hasn't prevented them from being called world class, and it hasn't prevented them from winning the biggest trophies. This idea of completeness is a mostly artificial construct. The idea that you can't find a notable deficiency in world class players is demonstrably false.
This is a great post.
 

rotherham_red

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There are plenty of issues with Pogba and there have been many valid criticisms of him over the past 5 years...but he was pretty great these Euros - if he played like that for United, even with some of the lapses, I'd be very happy.
He has been though, and for a pretty extended period of time too. The difference is that he has better players around him for France than he does for Utd.
 

JPRouve

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I've probably been described that way at some point! It's a very polarised debate so if you accept Pogba underperformed here or has a deficiency there then you can get labelled as a Pogba hater. It's all a bit weird given Pogba obviously has pros and cons and we weigh those differently, so there will inevitably be some deviation in opinion, and most people don't fit into a binary classification. But hey-ho. I like Pogba. It'd be great if he could do it all but given most players in history haven't been able to do it all, I can live with it.
You were spot on in what you said, though I'm pretty sure that you plagiarized one of my recent post. :p
 

kouroux

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I think Scholes did a lot more defensive work than you are giving him credit for. But regardless, I'm not here to defend Scholesy.

What I would say is that I don't expect Pogba to be free of defiencies, but when he turns on his va-va voom mode, it makes him look outstanding in offense but also really imbalances the team too much. To play in his favoured deep positions, he needs to know which periods of the game to turn it on, which periods of the game to sit back and do his defensive duties. If he wants to play in va-va voom mode all the time like Cristiano, he really needs to go further up the pitch and stay away from midfield.
I don't think a player can choose on his own his position on the pitch and his role as a player. Normally you have a coaching staff that does that. He has his defiencies and the've been what they are, coaches have to find ways to use him or bench him
 

#07

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The only difference between Pogba for France and United is that he plays a slightly different role. He isn't better or more consistent, he sometimes makes ridiculous mistakes(against Turkey for example) and other times he makes incredible passes.
This is the objective truth.

Strip away preconceptions, strip away hype, the reality is its the same Pogba. People just want to it not to be. They want Pogba to be Roy of the Rovers. 10 out of 10 every game. No mistakes, ever. Goal contributions, lung bursting runs, goal saving tackles literally every game.

He's a luxury player.....

There's an unfair misconception that Paul is lazy. He's not.

He just lacks the required defensive discipline and awareness a centre midfielder should have.

Seen it loads of times over the years it is so fecking easy to run off him and play through him. I feel for his midfield partner as he is expected to do twice the donkeys work to cover his arse.

Pogba is much more effective as a forward attacking player. As we saw for a period last season left wide forward, with limited defensive responsibilties he did well.
Is this really true? Would you say that Pogba's defensive awareness is obviously inferior to someone like Toni Kroos'? Where was Kroos when Luke Shaw was stampeding through midfield in the build up to England's second goal yesterday?

I think Pogba is held to a standard no other centre midfielder is. Its hard to understand, frankly.

As @JPRouve says what we see is what we get with Pogba. A very good player who, more often than not will play very good. That's it. This desire for him to be more, this blind faith that if only he plays with Kante, or if we find a magical system for him, he will be more is why he ends up being judged so harshly.

If we just put Pogba up next to other similar players then you can say, on most counts he's better than them and in most games he plays better than them. Expecting more than that is why people end up massively disappointed by him.
 

Nou_Camp99

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He has been though, and for a pretty extended period of time too. The difference is that he has better players around him for France than he does for Utd.
The second half of the season from Pogba is vastly over rated.

Despite playing further forward for a big chunk of the second half of the season his last PL goal came in January. Yes January.

He ended the season with 6 goals and 6 assists in all comps. That's nowhere near world class level. It's bleeding miles off actually.
 

Gandalf Greyhame

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Pogba had a great game and all, but yeah let's be honest, put him in a 2 even next to Kante, and he's a liability defensively even when he has a great game offensively. He needs to be in a 3 with 2 more defense minded midfielders. That's it. He doesn't know how to defend, he's just not that type of player so people need to stop putting him in those situations where his defensive lapses cost the team.
- bosnian_red blamed Pogba, and then Brwned defended him.
- Kouroux praised Brwned, but JPRouve accused him of plagiarism.
- amol tried to instigate a brawl but Brwned chickened out after being scared of JPRouve.

Now we're trying to sell the polemic Brwned and get some Leon fella from Bayern who won't be half the poster Brwned is.
 

Bwuk

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Rabiot has a cheek. Can’t believe he got a game for France.
 

#07

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Those are half-truths, half-truths that are protective of Scholes and critical of Pogba. Which is totally reasonable but we should be open about that. Scholes was dropped for some of the biggest games for Butt because he offered better balance, he had his best season playing with two midfielders behind him picking up the bulk of the defensive work, and he spent most of his time alongside Keane being covered for, it wasn't a "you go forward then I go forward" relationship. He was a better midfielder when people accommodated his defensive weaknesses.

Of course, he did some defensive work, Roy Keane wasn't an island. That is evidently true of Pogba too. If you look at the stats on the previous page, he won the most "duels" of any player this tournament. He made 7 tackles, not on par with Kante's 10, but on par with Pavard. And he "won" 2 tackles from 7, compared to Kante's 2 from 10. Only Kante covered a greater distance than him for France, and he's 22nd in the tournament overall for distance covered, in the same ball park as the likes of Kroos, Koke, De Jong.

People see Kante as a one-man midfield, but Keane was often described as a one-man midfield too, and Scholes benefited from that a lot. A lot of the greatest offensive midfielders in history have had deficiencies that need to be accounted for to achieve perfect balance, or some acceptance of imbalance in the team because the good outweighs the bad. That hasn't prevented them from being called world class, and it hasn't prevented them from winning the biggest trophies. This idea of completeness is a mostly artificial construct. The idea that you can't find a notable deficiency in world class players is demonstrably false.
Great post.

PS) my personal preference for Scholes' apex is 2006-07 but I can see why you'd say 2002-03 was his best season.
 

kouroux

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Rabiot has a cheek. Can’t believe he got a game for France.
I don't think there is much in it. Players insult each others, blame each others at amateur levels even so when the stakes are higher, it can only be worse. During the heat of the moment, nothing is to be taken at face value. They were all in shock at the time.
We've seen how Cavani reacted when Rashford didn't pass to him at times, these guys aren't always buddies.
 
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I don't think there is much in it. Players insult each others, blame each others at amateur levels even so when the stakes are higher, it can only be worse. During the heat of the moment, nothing is to be taken at face value. They were all in shock at the time.
We've seen how Cavani reacted when Rashford didn't pass to him at times, these guys aren't always buddies.
Indeed. Arguments happen when you lose a nothing game, this was a knockout at the Euros. It’s perfectly normal, and it’s over with almost as soon as it started.
 

Jeppers7

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Threads descended into an abyss where Pogba has never had a good game, had a poor tournament and had a poor season. As we knew it would.
 

JPRouve

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- bosnian_red blamed Pogba, and then Brwned defended him.
- Kouroux praised Brwned, but JPRouve accused him of plagiarism.
- amol tried to instigate a brawl but Brwned chickened out after being scared of JPRouve.

Now we're trying to sell the polemic Brwned and get some Leon fella from Bayern who won't be half the poster Brwned is.
Hey! Brwned didn't chicken out, he gracefully took my joke.
 

spiriticon

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https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/12/penny-finally-dropped-newly-disciplined-paul-pogba

Pogba can do the work when he wants to. I've seen him do it, everyone's seen him do it. He must play more often in a style that does not match his personality, for the sake of his team. He may not win any Ballon D'Ors, but he will probably win more trophies like in 2018.

Just for the record, I do like Pogba actually. I still think he's the most talented player at the club. I hate his agent though.
 

#07

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https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/12/penny-finally-dropped-newly-disciplined-paul-pogba

Pogba can do the work when he wants to. I've seen him do it, everyone's seen him do it. He must play more often in a style that does not match his personality, for the sake of his team. He may not win any Ballon D'Ors, but he will probably win more trophies like in 2018.

Just for the record, I do like Pogba actually. I still think he's the most talented player at the club. I hate his agent though.
My observation is that he does. The statistics on duels won, ball recoveries and so on show that he does.

However, like all players, Pogba makes mistakes. There will be one or two instances every match where he is not where he is meant to be, or he goes towards the ball when he should hold position. In that he is no different to any comparable #8 in world football today.

Yet with Pogba an inquest always follows. When Spain ship two late goals against Croatia to go into extra time in a game they were controlling, nobody questions if Pedri or Ruiz were doing enough defensive work. Its just accepted that sometimes midfielders, even elite level internationals, make mistakes. Pogba is just judged far more harshly for no real reason.
 
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