What about an individual player being physically much poorer than when they arrived? Who would that be down to, club or player?
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Not sure if you are referring specifically to Pogba here (is he physically much poorer now? I'm not sure what you mean) but I'd say the answer is both to a degree.
Players obviously have to be self motivating but the manager helps to drive players and keep them focused and clear on their specific jobs and goals. And the club is responsible for choosing the right manager and either promoting a style of play or helping the manager to implement his way of playing by getting him the players he wants. It's all connected, like a living organism.
It's surely not an accident that the currently successful clubs buy players that often improve their level of performance at those clubs.
Yeah I mean Pogba and I think its been clear for a long time he's regressed physically.
That is all on the player. A manager shouldn't have to motivate a player to keep fit.
If the player takes care of himself then we can look at the overall situation and how it's affecting the player.
But if he's not fit, for me that's where blaming others has to stop.
It really is evident how he is, not only slower but also more injury prone than when he arrived.
Wayne Rooney telling an interesting story:
"I remember once when I got to training the day after a loss. I was still so angry and went into the changing room with Michael Carrick. We found Jesse Lingard and Paul Pogba dancing to music."
Before anyone asks if they should’ve mourned, no they shouldn’t have, but this shows how mentally indifferent they are which is a main pillar of our underachievements over the last years.
"I remember once when I got to training the day after a loss. I was still so angry and went into the changing room with Michael Carrick. We found Jesse Lingard and Paul Pogba dancing to music."
Before anyone asks if they should’ve mourned, no they shouldn’t have, but this shows how mentally indifferent they are which is a main pillar of our underachievements over the last years.
It actually shows you nothing. People don't deal or show things similarly. Many people are perfectly able to compartmentalize others are able to not dwell on things very long and focus on what happens next.
Even in the case of Rooney, we have the infamous example of his birthday after being trashed by City, he was able to celebrate the same night.
Yup
rooney was possibly hungover too
pogbas been a disappointment overall but this anecdote doesn’t mean much to me
Rooney’s anecdote was more than 10 years ago. Pogba was barely part of the team. This supposing he “didn’t care”.
Edit: seems to be 5 years ago.
Edit: seems to be 5 years ago.
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No.
"Wayne Rooney on his final years at Man United"
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Ok. I was wrong. It was 5 years ago, he was no longer a kid.
But making sound like he doesn’t care about winning/losing based on him dancing “to music” after a loss is still not compelling.
It does show a lot. Losing has become normal to some these days
well it doesn’t seem pogba is able to keep focus anyway, his inconsistency is terrible.
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It shows nothing when it comes to being indifferent. In the case of Pogba you are talking about a player that didn't lose much at that point of his career. If we take someone like Pogba as an example, he is known for being easily frustrated during games when things go wrong but extremely positive and upbeat outside of it.
I dont accept this to be a generational thing. I dont think Firminho, Dias, Mane, Havertz, Alonso, James, etc. Would be jovial dancing to music straight after a defeat.
It wasn't straight after a defeat but if you go out in the places athletes visit, you will see plenty of them enjoying themselves hours after a defeat.
Damnit it makes me feel old seeing the changing of the guard so many times. Remember Keane didn’t get Rooney or Rio and wasn’t a fan of their banter but respected them as players. Players are so different nowadays from the heroes us old heads grew up with it’s just best to ignore it all and just concentrate on the football.
And there is also the small issue that out of more than 25 players, you will have people with very different characters and ways to deal with things, whether we are talking about positive or negative things. Wasn't Yorke someone that was always happy and ready to party?
It's only worthy to focus on these things when you consider the entire group of player and whether they have the right balance of characters. You don't want to have a group full of players that are alway unhappy, always happy, that gets easily frustrated or not frustrated at all and all the other type of characters.
Really doesn't matter what he did 5 years ago.
It matters what's happening now, and that is he's leaving on a free, and plays so poorly he's a liability.
It matters what's happening now, and that is he's leaving on a free, and plays so poorly he's a liability.
Yeah but that's different in my view. It can be letting off steam, it can be for pre existing plans regardless of the result etc.
I really do think theres something wrong with mentality if anyone is jovial in the dressing room directly after the final whistle.
Who was jovial in the dressing room directly after the final whistle?
Ah apologies, I misread the tweet!
Needs to go. Doesn't give us enough of what we need. He is an icing on the cake player and right now we need the actual cake.
If you look up style over substance you'll see his picture alongside it.
Most of those players probably wouldn’t dance after winning either. They are probably not much the dancers. We’re now moving into the realms of personal interests now. As @JPRouve said, people deal with things differently. People dance and tell jokes at funerals. Some just cry.
Still remember being thumped 4-0 at Chelsea under Jose and Pogba was on halfway line laughing and hugging with Chelsea players at FT. Right there I knew something was wrong.
The guy has bags of natural ability but he just doesn't have the drive to be a world class player.
The guy has bags of natural ability but he just doesn't have the drive to be a world class player.
You care about the most meaningless things if it bothers you a player greeting and talking to oppo players after FT.
I care about the performance only..and nothing else
I don't really have a problem with him laughing and joking during work, some people just want to enjoy their work and not be always bitter and hate everything, totally fine.
My critique with him has always been footballing wise. The issue is imo and always has been that he is too slow, too ponderous and holds on to the ball too long, which especially is a concern in the PL. In Italy, Spain or Germany a lot of the times when he is bullied off the ball he would get a free kick but not in the PL, most refs are way more comfortable of letting physical contact and muscling a player off the ball just run, and he ends up on his ass complaining about not having been given the foul.
The next issue is that he is also in trouble due to the bad balance of the squad. He and Bruno pretty much occupy the same spot in the midfield, high risk flair players who usually excel in a free role and with protection behind them. We don't have that, the two players who had to do that are at best box to box midfielders and the only real DM is way past his peak.
I don't think he is a bad player, he is just a massive misfit for our team.
My critique with him has always been footballing wise. The issue is imo and always has been that he is too slow, too ponderous and holds on to the ball too long, which especially is a concern in the PL. In Italy, Spain or Germany a lot of the times when he is bullied off the ball he would get a free kick but not in the PL, most refs are way more comfortable of letting physical contact and muscling a player off the ball just run, and he ends up on his ass complaining about not having been given the foul.
The next issue is that he is also in trouble due to the bad balance of the squad. He and Bruno pretty much occupy the same spot in the midfield, high risk flair players who usually excel in a free role and with protection behind them. We don't have that, the two players who had to do that are at best box to box midfielders and the only real DM is way past his peak.
I don't think he is a bad player, he is just a massive misfit for our team.
His performance was more embarrassing that day. That's the thing mate.
It's not post directly aimed at you @JPRouve, but in general towards the ones sulking because players go out after defeats and are not the motherfecking saints fans would want them to be.
What's wrong with that? Do normal people don't leave the house after a bad day at work?
It's baffling that Wayne has the guts to say some of the stuff he said, when all he did during half his career was drink, feck and smoke.
People can do whatever the feck they want, stop placing football players and football in general on a pedestal. Football is nothing more than a sport, something that should entertain people. I find it extremely odd that fans are so concerned with what players do these days.
Yeah, I get the rapper type in football, where every idiot gets suddenly rich and starts buying G-Klasses and gold chains, that would bother me as well. But, other than that, they can do whatever the feck they want, no matter they won or lost. It's their lives ffs not yours, jesus.
To be clear it wasn't meant as a criticism but a simple observation meant to highlight that athletes often aren't sulking and crying after a losss. Some do but it's not special for them to not be visibly upset or move on to the next game, competition quickly. It also doesn't mean that they won't train hard, won't analyze what went wrong and won't want to have their revenge later.
And I don't think Rooney said anything wrong, if anything he explained that Pogba and Lingard processed things differently and he clearly stated that Pogba was a great professional.
Not sure i agree with you there, what players do when there not on the clock is different to what they do when they are on the clock.
Its like any workplace, if something goes wrong one day at work, it may not affect you outside of work but when your in work your game face should be on and you should be working to make it right.
If anything it shows exactly why we are where we are right now, Rooney and Carrick pissed off and upset after a defeat determined to put it right, Pogba and lingard not really that bothered carry on as normal, its not our fault its the managers.
You do realize that Rooney was talking about the next training session at Carrington? Clubs dressing room are full of banter and players are chill, they don't put their game face on whether you are talking about prime Barcelona or your local amateur club. Secondly players talk after the game in the locker room at the stadium most of what has to be said is said then or in the train, plane or coach, the only thing that may need to be adressed later is during video sessions which doesn't happen in the dressing room. Thirdly I would be very worried if most of my players couldn't move on and move to the next game quickly.
And no it's not like any workplace. Football is a game where defeat is a fairly common outcome. Knowing how to handle defeat, learn from it and move on are extremely important otherwise you will end up spending the majority of your time upset, angry or depressed.
Your last paragraph sums up the problem perfectly, 'Defeat is a fairly common occurunce' that mentality is exactly the problem. Winners don't accept defeat, ever. Sometimes in football no matter how good you are you are gonna lose, but that dosent mean you should just accept it, the mentality is we should win every game and if we don't then something went wrong and we need to sort it out.
Which has nothing to do with being angry. You can perfectly accept that you lost, look at the reason why you lost, try to fix it and aim for victory on the next game. Particularly when you are several hours-days after the events and had time to process it.
An other reason why you should dwell on things too much is that your next opponent is most likely different to your future opponent and you should quickly focus on that next opponent.
Sure if his performance was shit that day, then that is what I care about, nothing else.
I agree that's important but I don't want to see our players hugging and laughing after getting battered.
He just doesn't care. It's just a job to him
I don’t like this either. I get that he’s a nice guy and he’s easy going. I don’t think having easy going important players on huge money is a good idea. I think it sets a soft tone. He’s not that good that he can just improvise and play it ear. There has to be some intensity there
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Disgrace....Roy Keane wouldn’t have had depression.
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