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2014-15 Performances


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Adebesi

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The attitude towards Jones is ridiculous on here at times. Even when he plays well people refuse to acknowledge things he's done well and base their judgement on past games. People say he's not good enough defensively yet he does more defensive work than any of our other players. People praise Carrick and Blind's reading of the game for making interceptions but call Jones stupid despite him making more interceptions per game than either. People give out about his passing yet his average pass percentage is 86 percent and for all the talk about him constantly throwing himself around the place recklessly he only concedes just over 1 foul per game and only has 3 yellow cards this season. He has only turned 23 and has spent the past few years playing in various positions in a team in transition and obviously hasnt been helped by his injury problems. At his age Stam was playing in the Dutch 2nd division with Cambuur, Ronnei Johnsen was playing as a striker a lot of the time, Thiago Silva was on the verge of retiring from football, Benatia was playing in Ligue 2 with Clermont and Koscielny was playing in Ligue 2. Many on here seem to think that he should be the finished article at an age when most players and central defenders in particular are still learning the game and ignore the fact that our 2 best central defenders in recent times in Ferdinand and Vidic both joined when they were older than Jones is now and both had some very shaky times and plenty of mistakes in their early days at the club. Yes he has mistakes in him but so does every young defender including the likes of Varane and Laporte who most on here would gladly spend huge money on and both have actually made more mistakes this season than Jones has
A lot of people have already said it but kudos for this great post.

My concern about Jones has nothing to do with his ability and everything to do with his ability to stay fit. If he can overcome his injury problems Id be confident he could go on to be CB for us for years to come. But until he does that I definitely think we need to bring at least one more CB in. We've had crippling injury crises centred around our defense every year for quite some time now, the same will surely happen next year unless we act.
 

Pogue Mahone

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He's been much better of late. The advantage of playing a few games in the one position. I still don't think you can disagree that he's a massive idiot, though. He always seems on the verge of doing something inexplicable.
Idiot is harsh, as it reinforces the widely held stereotype of him being a stupid defender. Always out of position and running around like a headless chicken to try and catch up with play. The fact he has made so many interceptions implies his reading of the game is much better than he's given credit for.

What he is, though, is impetuous. Impetuous and completely lacking in any sense of self-preservation. A dangerous combination which he'll hopefully grow out of over time. Most youngsters think they're indestructible. He just happens to think and act like he is. With a bit of luck the penny will drop eventually. It usually does.
 

mazhar13

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Although his anticipation has improved this season, I still think he's pretty reckless with his tackles.
No doubt. He is still a bit wild with his tackles, but there's noticeable, significant progress and development this season. He is still being refined as a player, and soon, hopefully, we should see him be more refined.
 

ravelston

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The amazing thing is that, despite the massively negative view of him from the Caf, he's the top-rated centerback in the Prem on the whoscored.com ratings (and also our top rated player). Of course we all know that ratings are meaningless (at least when they go against our prejudices) but, to get a high rating you do have to consistently tick the boxes in their system, so he must be doing something right.
 

MyOnlySolskjaer

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Wasn't exactly tested much but looked to force positive movement in the team, striding forwards and not many side passes. Still think Smalling has done more than Jones to warrant a place (based on United performances that is)
 

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I've never ever been convinced by Jones and can't say I'm fully sold. But credit where credit is due, he has done well lately and impressed me. Done his international prospects no harm tonight. Ok, the opposition was absolutely woeful but nevertheless he done well.
 

ChrisG11

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I agree he's looked better on the left side, but disagree that it's because he's playing on the left. Smalling as a defender complements Jones a lot better than Rojo I feel, and tonight I for think he really had much to do bar a great interception in the box in the first half. It's very difficult for a player on the left hand side to be comfortable in possession if they aren't comfortable using their left foot, which Jones isn't. I've said it before - I think buying a left sided centre halves (Hummels the obvious target) and having Jones and Smalling competing for a place on the right would put us in a good position in my opinion.
 

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I agree he's looked better on the left side, but disagree that it's because he's playing on the left. Smalling as a defender complements Jones a lot better than Rojo I feel, and tonight I for think he really had much to do bar a great interception in the box in the first half. It's very difficult for a player on the left hand side to be comfortable in possession if they aren't comfortable using their left foot, which Jones isn't. I've said it before - I think buying a left sided centre halves (Hummels the obvious target) and having Jones and Smalling competing for a place on the right would put us in a good position in my opinion.
Vidic's was never that good with his left foot.
 

Pexbo

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Vidic's was never that good with his left foot.
Vidic never played in a system that required him to be good on the ball. He was actually very poor on the ball, especially in his last two seasons.
 

SonnyTheHaloPro

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Vidic never played in a system that required him to be good on the ball. He was actually very poor on the ball, especially in his last two seasons.
Vidic was actually pretty decent on the ball, not quite sure about his last 2 seasons but before that injury against Basel, he wasn't bad on the ball at all.
 

ChrisG11

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Insisting on only ever playing one right and one left-footed CB is utter madness, which is why I'm relieved that Van Gaal hasn't been too dogmatic to play Smalling and Jones together in recent weeks. Even after Rojo got fit again.
It's not a case of only playing a left footed CB there, but if you play someone there that hasn't got a left foot at all then they're going to struggle if they're pressed. If he receives it from the RCB then he has to take a inside if he wants to use his stronger foot, rather than letting it run across their body. If you receive it from the LB then again, you've got to deal with it by playing the ball across your body which isn't as natural as using your nearer foot. The reason why this present different problems than the former is that play is more likely to condensed on the wing so the centre half will be under more intense pressure.
 

Pogue Mahone

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It's not a case of only playing a left footed CB there, but if you play someone there that hasn't got a left foot at all then they're going to struggle if they're pressed. If he receives it from the RCB then he has to take a inside if he wants to use his stronger foot, rather than letting it run across their body. If you receive it from the LB then again, you've got to deal with it by playing the ball across your body which isn't as natural as using your nearer foot. The reason why this present different problems than the former is that play is more likely to condensed on the wing so the centre half will be under more intense pressure.
I get the theory. In practice it's a non-issue, as we've seen from all the world class right-footed CBs who've excelled in that position over the years.
 

Pexbo

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I get the theory. In practice it's a non-issue, as we've seen from all the world class right-footed CBs who've excelled in that position over the years.
They haven't all been asked to play in a system where retention of the ball is key though. In our system, our players assume possession will be retained when the defenders have it and position themselves accordingly. The fullbacks drop wide and deep, the wingers or LCM/RCM in a diamond midfield get wide and everyone gets ready to receive the ball and make themselves availiable for the pre-meditated phase of play. What you don't want is a CB you can't trust to play the ball properly. If he just lumps it out of play or boots it aimlessly up field the whole team has to get their shit together, reshape and look to mark players and cover space rather than find space.

All that because someone can't pick out a good pass with their opposite foot. We saw it with Smalling the other week when he was moved to LCB. He knew what he was supposed to do but found it very difficult with the ball under his feet and the correct pass with his good foot very difficult with a man bearing down on him.
 

Pogue Mahone

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They haven't all been asked to play in a system where retention of the ball is key though. In our system, our players assume possession will be retained when the defenders have it and position themselves accordingly. The fullbacks drop wide and deep, the wingers or LCM/RCM in a diamond midfield get wide and everyone gets ready to receive the ball and make themselves availiable for the pre-meditated phase of play. What you don't want is a CB you can't trust to play the ball properly. If he just lumps it out of play or boots it aimlessly up field the whole team has to get their shit together, reshape and look to mark players and cover space rather than find space.

All that because someone can't pick out a good pass with their opposite foot. We saw it with Smalling the other week when he was moved to LCB. He knew what he was supposed to do but found it very difficult with the ball under his feet and the correct pass with his good foot very difficult with a man bearing down on him.
A lot of them have.

Look at Barca under Guardiola. The epitomy of a system where possession is everything and arguably the best team of the past 20 years. Did they insist on playing a left-footed LCB? Did they feck.
 
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ChrisG11

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I get the theory. In practice it's a non-issue, as we've seen from all the world class right-footed CBs who've excelled in that position over the years.
Of course, but I think it's rare for you to see a team that makes a point of keeping possession not having a player on the left that isn't comfortable playing with their left. Look at the two most renounced possession sides in the world at the moment. Bayern have Dante and Badstuber, and Barcelona bought Mathieu I'd speculate to have an actual defender comfortable on their left, instead of playing midfielders there.

I'm happy with Jones and Smalling combination atm and I hope it continues for the rest of the season. I doubt van Gaal has his principles for no reason though so I'd expect us to sign a left sided CB who's comfortable on his left, because I think it's clear Jones isn't comfortable when pressed. Smalling had a half there vs Arsenal and had an absolute nightmare.
 

Brwned

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Of course, but I think it's rare for you to see a team that makes a point of keeping possession not having a player on the left that isn't comfortable playing with their left. Look at the two most renounced possession sides in the world at the moment. Bayern have Dante and Badstuber, and Barcelona bought Mathieu I'd speculate to have an actual defender comfortable on their left, instead of playing midfielders there.
It's not like they struggled when Puyol played there. And while you could make an argument for someone like Hummels being relatively two-footed - and even then that's a bit of a stretch - you can't say the same for Puyol. He wasn't much more comfortable on his left than Jones is. Competent at using it to make simple passes and clear it but nothing beyond that.
 

ChrisG11

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It's not like they struggled when Puyol played there. And while you could make an argument for someone like Hummels being relatively two-footed - and even then that's a bit of a stretch - you can't say the same for Puyol. He wasn't much more comfortable on his left than Jones is. Competent at using it to make simple passes and clear it but nothing beyond that.
Puyol used to play predominantly on the right side though didn't he? Even then, he was often moved to full back under Guardiola and either Busquets, Toure or Mascherano were moved to CB - the CL final in 09 being an example. Guardiola also bought Chygrynskiy because they needed cover on the left hand side and he was left footed.
 

Brwned

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Puyol used to play predominantly on the right side though didn't he? Even then, he was often moved to full back under Guardiola and either Busquets, Toure or Mascherano were moved to CB - the CL final in 09 being an example. Guardiola also bought Chygrynskiy because they needed cover on the left hand side and he was left footed.
At their peak it was Pique on the right and Puyol on the left for the vast majority of games. The CL final was an exceptional circumstance because of Alves' injury and the Chygrynskiy point seems neither here nor there because he never played, which shows that even when they did have a left-footed player they didn't choose their centre backs based on which foot they use but how good they are. Just as van Gaal is doing now.

I've no doubt in an ideal world they'd have a top class, left footed centre back for an extra bit of balance but it's obviously not essential and Barca at their peak are the perfect example of that. Ajax and Holland in the 70s didn't have a left-footed player in their entire back four, from what I remember. Nor did Bayern or Germany at the same time actually - although Beckenbauer obviously made up for that with a right foot that could do anything he wanted.
 

Eugenius

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IMO this left footed centre back stuff is nonsense. No-one ever talked about this when Rio and Vidic were playing - and I've seen a suggestion that between 2007 and 2013 we played systems that didn't need our CBs to play out from the back, which is complete nonsense too.

CBs should be able to whack it 60 yards with their weaker foot and make simple 20-30 yard passes on it. I can sort of understand why LvG wanted a left footer in the summer (Rojo) because we were playing 3 at the back and when the opposition sit back, it's the wide centre backs who become the free man and have to surge forward/offer an overlap to the wing back. But in a back four it's completely unnecessary. It's cost us goals too with the Blackett experiment.
 

Getsme

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Seems like he will be first choice for Club and Country, easy to see why.
 

Brwned

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IMO this left footed centre back stuff is nonsense. No-one ever talked about this when Rio and Vidic were playing - and I've seen a suggestion that between 2007 and 2013 we played systems that didn't need our CBs to play out from the back, which is complete nonsense too.
And for over half a season Rio and Vidic actually swapped sides, which shows how little Sir Alex cared about it all.
 

ChrisG11

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At their peak it was Pique on the right and Puyol on the left for the vast majority of games. The CL final was an exceptional circumstance because of Alves' injury and the Chygrynskiy point seems neither here nor there because he never played, which shows that even when they did have a left-footed player they didn't choose their centre backs based on which foot they use but how good they are. Just as van Gaal is doing now.

I've no doubt in an ideal world they'd have a top class, left footed centre back for an extra bit of balance but it's obviously not essential and Barca at their peak are the perfect example of that. Ajax and Holland in the 70s didn't have a left-footed player in their entire back four, from what I remember. Nor did Bayern or Germany at the same time actually - although Beckenbauer obviously made up for that with a right foot that could do anything he wanted.
I don't have a lot of understanding about the earlier sides so I couldn't possibly comment.

On the Chygrynskiy point, i used him as an example of why they bought him, and I did mention he was only a cover player. I'm not suggesting that a side should play someone should play if they're shite just because they're left footed, I wasn't suggesting that that they have to be left footed either, just that they should at least be comfortable with using it.

On the Puyol point you do have me, because of course he was never known for his ball playing abilities and it goes without saying how immense Barcelona were on the ball. I guess the only explanation I could put forward is how comfortable the rest of the team was around him, made it a little easier as you could play the ball into Busquets, Iniesta or Xavi under any pressure knowing they'd keep it.

To refer back to United, I still would rather have Jones back on the right next season because I think it's clear he isn't comfortable when he gets it on the left under pressure. As I say though, there's no need to break the partnership for the remainder of this season.
 

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I feel like saying a right footed CB can not play on the left is like saying a right footed midfielder can not play on the left side of central midfield.
 

jb8521

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I agree he's looked better on the left side, but disagree that it's because he's playing on the left. Smalling as a defender complements Jones a lot better than Rojo I feel, and tonight I for think he really had much to do bar a great interception in the box in the first half. It's very difficult for a player on the left hand side to be comfortable in possession if they aren't comfortable using their left foot, which Jones isn't. I've said it before - I think buying a left sided centre halves (Hummels the obvious target) and having Jones and Smalling competing for a place on the right would put us in a good position in my opinion.
Jones actually played a couple of really good passes against Liverpool and Spurs with his left foot including a brilliant clipped pass to Fellaini which lead to the goal and has looked very comfortable on the left. Against Liverpool and Spurs hes had 83% and 89% passing accuracy which is better than Blind in both games and last night he had 94% so he's obviously not having too much of an issue in possession. I completely understand the theory behind what you're saying but it hasnt actually been shown in relation to Jones and there are countless other examples of players playing in some of the best possession based teams in history that are right footed and prefer to play on the left. It only really becomes an issue if the player is extremely awkward on their weaker foot
 
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Pogue Mahone

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So apparently Woy is going to be playing him as a holding midfielder. Didn't think we'd see that again and can't say I'm too pleased about it. Was getting better and better as a CB with the more games he played. Would have much rather he got another game under his belt in his preferred position.
 

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We're down to the bare bones in midfield so I can see why Woy is doing it. Smalling can take his place at the back and there won't be any drop in quality there.
 

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So apparently Woy is going to be playing him as a holding midfielder. Didn't think we'd see that again and can't say I'm too pleased about it. Was getting better and better as a CB with the more games he played. Would have much rather he got another game under his belt in his preferred position.
Yeah same here. Him and Smalling have moved around too much, especially Jones. Just play them at CB every damn game.

That said, being a friendly, it could be to simply give other CBs a game. Would have quite liked him not to be involved and be fresh for the game on Sat.
 

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Is Mathias Ginter or Kurt Zouma's development being stalled because they occasionally play in midfield? I really hate the caf theory that Smalling and Jones were being ruined by them being played in different positions.
 

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feck off Woy. Play Beckham there ffs, I'm sure he'd be up for playing another game. It is worrying how we don't have any decent midfielders who can play deep though.
 

ChrisG11

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Is Mathias Ginter or Kurt Zouma's development being stalled because they occasionally play in midfield? I really hate the caf theory that Smalling and Jones were being ruined by them being played in different positions.
Jones spent a good 2/3 seasons playing in midfield as one of his main positions, a bit different from occasionally putting Zouma there because Matic isn't available.
 

George Owen

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before Brazil WC i said:

The only way for England to get out of their group is playing Jones in midfield.



Of course dinosaur Woy didn't listened... until now. I see a brighter future for England chances to be competitive again with Jones in midfield.
 

Sam

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I'm going to go against the grain and say I prefer him as a midfielder then a defender. Not as a holding mid though, that requires too much tactical nous and ability on the ball. But as a sort of 'destroyer' I think he's got all the attributes needed.
 

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Is Mathias Ginter or Kurt Zouma's development being stalled because they occasionally play in midfield? I really hate the caf theory that Smalling and Jones were being ruined by them being played in different positions.
But the theory is true. Smalling's confidence, and reputation, was decimated by his attempts to play at right back.

He and Jones have yet to play ten games at centre half together at United in their whole time at the club. That's just ridiculous.

During this time we had an ageing Ferdinand, who could no longer contest a corner at the other end of the field because of his back, and Vidic, who spent about two cumulative years of that period out injured. It's been a mismanagement of potential.

Injures have been a decisive factor in their stall, too. But players will not develop to be central defenders if they're not playing in that position regularly. Game time breeds confidence and repetition, which in turn brings about learned behaviours that make for positive growth.

Central defenders, perhaps moreso than any position, need experiences, good or bad, to get better.

The reality of the situation is that both Smalling and Jones played much of their developmental years out of position. When the time came to throw them in, many then expected them to suddenly turn out like the superstars we thought we had bought. It was silly, to be honest, and they probably deserve more credit than they get for their recent form in our back four.
 

Sam

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Absolutely destroyed by...Chiellini of all people...dear me.
 

Kag

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That first half in central midfield will have done a lot for his development as a centre half, clearly.