I don't know why these threads are tolerated. A blight on the forum - apart from the sensible few that have responded with correct suggestions that it may be management/tactics at fault.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
The thread title is a bit harsh IMV, but the turnaround needs to carry on.
Actively sell / let leave:
Smalling or Jones
Shaw
Darmian
Blind
Fellaini
Consider selling at right price:
Mata
Smalling or Jones
I'd keep Young and Valencia without doubt as backup full backs. I'd also keep Martial and Pogba, no question. Rojo just signed a new deal so no point in going down that road (I'd sell Jones or Smalling before him in any case).
And keep Dave whatever the cost. Worth about a 100x Sanchez.
Actively sell / let leave:
Smalling or Jones
Shaw
Darmian
Blind
Fellaini
Consider selling at right price:
Mata
Smalling or Jones
I'd keep Young and Valencia without doubt as backup full backs. I'd also keep Martial and Pogba, no question. Rojo just signed a new deal so no point in going down that road (I'd sell Jones or Smalling before him in any case).
And keep Dave whatever the cost. Worth about a 100x Sanchez.
The players you reference would be brilliant playing under Klopp and Guardiola.
There's a real clamour for Mourinho to succeed in your post (and very good players get it in the neck as a result) but it's hopelessly misguided, as we'll see over the next twelve months, irrespective of who comes in this summer.
1) Valencia
2) Young
3) Young
4) Valencia
5) That guy that plays RB for us
2) Young
3) Young
4) Valencia
5) That guy that plays RB for us
Who decides whether it is the players or manager at fault, you? You seem to want to push the idea that this is all on Jose but don't want to hear anything about the players.
A lot of these players have been involved in the 5 years of crap we've endured. They're not blame free.
I decide nothing. But I'm within my rights to believe that those who don't agree are naive at best and plain daft at worst.
Mourinho is accountable for our relentlessly shit football. He has been for the eighteen months it's been (more or less) relentlessly shit.
Given the personnel at his disposal, the overall quality, identity and enthusiasm to our play is abject, primarily because of him.
Crack on and sell Martial and Pogba, or Mata and Herrera. Replace them with some prat from PSG. It'll be the same shit.
18 months? That's incredibly generous. We've been shit for years, that's the reality. And I'd say the same, crack on and sack Mourinho, but continue with the same squad and I bet things don't get any better.
I'm not as convinced anymore that Mourinho is definitely the right man for the job, but our players are pretty rubbish. Even the decent players (Pogba, Martial, Sanchez, Rashford, Mata, Lukaku, Matic) have such glaring issues that it simply can't be overlooked. I honestly don't think you can build a functioning team that will win the league out of what we have.
We have no right winger, three of our better players play the same position, no good fullbacks and CBs that can't stay fit enough to form any sort of partnership.
In the name of naivety... What would you realistically expect to happen if we fired Mourinho tomorrow? A year after that. do you imagine yourself being happy, if so what made it that way? It's a serious question.
On topic, if I had to put 5 in the trashbin:
Jones, Blind, Shaw, Fellaini, Mata.
They have all had their loving moments but overall mostly disappointed us since their arrival
Will be happy to take Pogba back...
on loan.
on loan.
I do always have a big chuckle when I see people on here say Pogba would be great under Pep.
I swear people just ignore what they actually see and come up with shit that suits their point or agenda.
Guardiola has binned far better players than Pogba because they couldn't keep up with his very particular demands.
You think Pep will stand for Pogbas carelessness? Or his lack of back tracking back? You get people on here slagging off Mourinho saying he's making Martial and Pogba do too much defensive work when they shouldn't.
Have you fecking seen De Bruyne? Sterling? At all this season.
Pep has been ruthless at city, I'm not even one to blow smoke up his arse as a lot of cafe folk do but anyone who couldn't keep up with the physical and mental demands of his football last season was binned. Sagna, Clichy, Zabaleta, Toure etc. No room for sentiment for one of city's best players or the club captain. Nobody got two years to adapt, they were straight out, even Bravo who he signed.
But somehow Pep in this fantasy world will tolerate Pogba picking and choosing when he can be arsed to play well?
Even Klopp, his midfielders are all stamina and work rate, none particularly creative, but yeah Pogba would be ideal for him.
The idea that Klopp and Pep are kinder to talented players with shitty attitudes and/or work rates is beyond laughable.
People seriously think Pogba would get away with his patented pony impression playing for Pep? That Martial would be allowed to waltz around off the ball under Klopp?
Klopp and Guardiola go even further than Mourinho when it comes to working hard off the ball.
People seriously think Pogba would get away with his patented pony impression playing for Pep? That Martial would be allowed to waltz around off the ball under Klopp?
Klopp and Guardiola go even further than Mourinho when it comes to working hard off the ball.
Well put. I find it very strange when people talk about Pogba and Martial doing better in other teams due to being a certain profile of player.
The reality is that Pogba and Martial are very difficult to fit into a system and so flourish under pragmatic managers that adapt their system to their qualities.
I would say that Rashford is far more suited to a Guardiola system, due to his usage of space and work rate. He is a similar profile to Pedro and Sterling. Martial would also get nowhere near a Klopp team due to his limited pressing qualities.
Retiring anyway:
- Carrick.
Sell/Get rid of:
- Darmian.
- Blind.
- Jones.
- Fellaini.
Not sure what to do with him:
- Shaw.
- Carrick.
Sell/Get rid of:
- Darmian.
- Blind.
- Jones.
- Fellaini.
Not sure what to do with him:
- Shaw.
It's both though. Suggesting who should/could leave when it's to be expected that some will is hardly a blight.
They would have, by now, had a team playing their brand of football getting the most out of the individual parts. That's the problem with us. We rely on individuals to bail us out and win us games, and then proceed to blame the individuals when things go awry. The 'team' does little to help us. It doesn't maximize or elevate anyone.
Whydid Jose sign Pogba if he's so useless off the ball? And why do Juve and Allegri not care for that?
Exactly!
Actively Sell
Smalling, Jones, Rojo
None are consistently top quality. With the latter two it's injuries, with smalling it's his technical limitations and tendency to grab/ push that will cost us under VAR
Darmian, Blind
Average players who are on the fringes of the squad. Neither are likely to improve and I'd rather see more opportunities for youth
Herrera
Several seasons at the club and he's only had 16/17 that was good. Just an average player for me. Cash in while he is in his peak
Mata
Similar reasons for Herrera. I think he is a top player when in central attacking mid and with the right players around him to make up for his physical weaknesses. He very rarely gets played there and is half the player our wide
Fellani
Already a foot out the door - don't extend his contract
Shaw
Two managers have concerns about his fitness and application. He's run out of chances and a new start would be best for all
Consider Selling
Martial
Far too inconsistent. He needs to knuckle down and get to the next level as he will soon no longer be a youth player. The other consideration is that his contract is ticking down - we could get a handsome amount unless we leave it too late
Pogba
Only if someone comes in with stupid money
Romero
Possible the best back up keeper in the world and probably walk into at least 10 prem sides. Shane to waste him on the bench and could easily get 15m for a backup player with limited time on his contract
Smalling, Jones, Rojo
None are consistently top quality. With the latter two it's injuries, with smalling it's his technical limitations and tendency to grab/ push that will cost us under VAR
Darmian, Blind
Average players who are on the fringes of the squad. Neither are likely to improve and I'd rather see more opportunities for youth
Herrera
Several seasons at the club and he's only had 16/17 that was good. Just an average player for me. Cash in while he is in his peak
Mata
Similar reasons for Herrera. I think he is a top player when in central attacking mid and with the right players around him to make up for his physical weaknesses. He very rarely gets played there and is half the player our wide
Fellani
Already a foot out the door - don't extend his contract
Shaw
Two managers have concerns about his fitness and application. He's run out of chances and a new start would be best for all
Consider Selling
Martial
Far too inconsistent. He needs to knuckle down and get to the next level as he will soon no longer be a youth player. The other consideration is that his contract is ticking down - we could get a handsome amount unless we leave it too late
Pogba
Only if someone comes in with stupid money
Romero
Possible the best back up keeper in the world and probably walk into at least 10 prem sides. Shane to waste him on the bench and could easily get 15m for a backup player with limited time on his contract
I don't think any of the 13 I mention are good enough unfortunately only 3 or 4 will go so another season of pain is ahead of us
Going by Jose's comments theres not likely to be a lot of movement.
Not that he was going to say the complete truth to the press but I just feel this will end up being the case for whatever reason.
Not that he was going to say the complete truth to the press but I just feel this will end up being the case for whatever reason.
Every year the same thing, but at the end nothing change:
Rojo, Smalling etc had the extension
This club doesn’t make any revolution, the only one who will be sold is Darmian to Juve. Stop
Rojo, Smalling etc had the extension
This club doesn’t make any revolution, the only one who will be sold is Darmian to Juve. Stop
More than anyone, Coaches decide the work rate. Check how Klopp and Poch sides work, which ever club they coach, their work rate is high because that's how they train and that's how they play.
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Seems one is made after every loss. I'm fully expecting a May 2018 edition, it's like a monthly magazine but online, you know one will pop up each month. I apologise this adds nothing to the debate but it's annoying the rate these kind of threads are made.
Well yes, but there’s more to it than that. You don’t have to be a Jose “hater” to see the lack of logic in them.
Players Jose has bought are obviously beyond criticism. It’s the players he didn’t buy but obviously really likes (Smalling, Young) that the people that love these threads are most desperate to see the back of. Why is this?
Gotta love how replacing players is always the solution. You'd think the penny will drop eventually given the return on the buck we've got in the past few years.
You can bring in who you want, but if they are not coached properly it will not make the slightest difference. As @roonster09 said above, people are moaning about the slow pace, well like him I would venture they are not trained to play quickly, we do not have enough players all over the pitch to play quickly. One or two is not enough. Different coaching and these players would be better. Trouble is I do not have any idea who could actually be that coach and not sure the club do either. The fullbacks are beyond redemption however, so they need binning along with Mata who is too slow, as lovely as he is.
Jose needed bringing in after SAF when his coaching methods were still relevant, they are not relevant now.
Jose needed bringing in after SAF when his coaching methods were still relevant, they are not relevant now.
So Pogba is doing great, apart from the City game he has been awful. He has run Matic into the ground. Bailly is a shadow of the player who first arrived. Sanchez we do not know yet. Lindelof he takes out just as he starts looking anything like. Think they should be looking at what he is getting out of the players before spunking a pile more money for said players to be sold a couple of seasons later. The club has to get this right.
These lists always look bigger after a loss and smaller following a win.
Agreed. It's not even about the players so much, but the system and game plan. We do need 2 new full backs though.
What I meant by “beyond criticism” was criticism by those who love these threads. I completely agree with your comments on those players, and your point regarding further purchases.
I’m not for one minute suggesting that any of Jose’s signings should be sold. Just that they be held to the same high standards that earlier signings appear to be in these threads.
We need to throw at least £250 million at the transfer market this summer and buy 4 or 5 top class players. We also need to get rid of at least six or seven of the squad. Sadly I don't think Jose is brave enough to do that, he's already told the press several times that he won't be signing any attacking players in the transfer window (Why not? How many league goals have Martial, Rashford, Mata, Lingard and Sanchez scored combined in all of 2018 so far? Ten. Ten goals between five of them.)
If we don't do the above, we will not challenge for the title next year, no way. To be honest we are still seeing the fallout of Moyes appointment, that was an absolutely catastrophic decision that set in motion six years of abject football - but actually quite typical of the kind of blunders you see made at the top of corporations.
I understand completely people saying that it's the manager and coaching at fault and throwing money at a situation has been tried, but really our squad has completely stagnated, they are not going to sack Jose so we may as well give him the tools to compete. Leagues are won by having the best players. But as I said above I worry that he is too pragmatic to oversee the kind of churn required (and that Pep undertook at City.)
If we don't do the above, we will not challenge for the title next year, no way. To be honest we are still seeing the fallout of Moyes appointment, that was an absolutely catastrophic decision that set in motion six years of abject football - but actually quite typical of the kind of blunders you see made at the top of corporations.
I understand completely people saying that it's the manager and coaching at fault and throwing money at a situation has been tried, but really our squad has completely stagnated, they are not going to sack Jose so we may as well give him the tools to compete. Leagues are won by having the best players. But as I said above I worry that he is too pragmatic to oversee the kind of churn required (and that Pep undertook at City.)
I agree with your sentiment but at the same time, there is a lack of self management, character. There are moments where the players need to ignore the manager and motivate each others, demand more intensity and focus from each others. You know that I don't trust that manager but that's not an excuse for the players, they can do better without him.
They're arsed to play. - Mourinho is just a poor motivator. Klopp has Henderson and Milner and gets a tune of out them. When he came in we looked and said how bad LFC squad is. He managed to work with his players coach them to play his way and improves them all. Mourinho has not improved a single player.
'The biggest problem I see at our club is the absolutely disgusting lack of application, lack of work rate and stamina a lot of our players have. Players like Pogba and Martial in particular. Even our players who have reasonable work rate seem to lack the stamina needed to perform over 90 minutes, the likes of Valencia, Young, Matic and Mata. Unless this changes we're never going to see our quality of football improve'
The biggest problem is that we have a coach who is unable to actually coach. Whatever he has been doing in training is not being reflected on the pitch. I don't know what system or style he is trying to implement because it looks like he doesn't have one. He seems to rely on setting up to stop the opposition playing. Which is great when it comes off but it will always lead to inconsistent performances and frustration.
You look at Shaw, Martial and Rashford the players with tons of potential. It looks like he can't be bothered to coach the players who can take us up level. He rather work with Matic, Young and Valencia because they are limited in ability and easier to manage. Anyone who is young, developing and rough around the edges, not for him.
We could sign ten players it won't make a difference.
A team with Martial, Sanchez, Lukaku, Mata, Rashford and Pogba unable to break down a team 20th in the League is down tactics. This is not squad full of mugs. Just look at how terrible we are in the final third. Tactically, Mourinho looks like yesterday's man compared to Poch, Klopp and Guardiola. All these teams have an identity, every player buys into the managers system. That will never happen at Utd. His methods are redundant. I don't see a single player thriving or enjoying themselves on the pitch.
City have just won the title. I will bet you that if those played for Jose we wouldn't have won the title. The manager instills the attitude of the players, SAF turned his players into warriors, Moyes turned them into self-important wimps. It has not improved since.
Nailed it with this list. I agree that none of these players are good enough for a title winning team, with the possible exception of Smalling as a squad player.
How many of these players have hung on for so many years is actually beyond belief, and it gives me no confidence that we will move them on this year either. It will probably take yet another manager to realise how average they are before all are gone.
Well... I'd like to ask the fiercest Mourinho critics how come 85 % of the rest of us think a decent number of players need upgrading?
Are we all wrong - and this is actually a Title / CL winning squad being outrageously thwarted by the total ineptitude of Jose.
The meltdown!
For some reason these threads become very active after a shocking performance, just like yesterday.
But how is this Darmians or Blinds fault? It was partly Jose's fault, and it was partly his most trusted players fault.
There are obviously 4-5 players that will leave in the summer, for different reasons. My guess is Carrick, Fellaini, Darmian and Jones or Blind. But they were always going to leave, this game doesn't change anything.
For some reason these threads become very active after a shocking performance, just like yesterday.
But how is this Darmians or Blinds fault? It was partly Jose's fault, and it was partly his most trusted players fault.
There are obviously 4-5 players that will leave in the summer, for different reasons. My guess is Carrick, Fellaini, Darmian and Jones or Blind. But they were always going to leave, this game doesn't change anything.
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I agree that a team mirrors the attitude of its manager but players have enough room to show a little bit of character without having to be told by the manager. Half of the time, they don't seem to care about winning or enjoying themselves.
We obviously need upgrades, but they are being mismanaged and badly coached as well. Everyone can take some blame. The whole thing of them being too high after the City game, well do something about it then, don't use it as a stick to beat them with after the fact. There is too much, this game isn't important and that game isn't important. All Manchester United games are important, all games should be for the winning. The attitude of the players comes from the manager.
Maybe there are too many things going on in the background to make it enjoyable. If some are disgruntled it doesn't take long for little groups to form and split the dressing room into for and against the manager.
Can't argue with that - heads us towards a rather more balanced view though.
I was also going to say that the players have some responsibility for themselves & within themselves - but you just done that,
.I reckon style of play & recruitment are entirely valid concerns though, as do the majority here too, I think.