Protests following the killing of George Floyd

[That'sHernandez]

I was making your point explicit because some seem to think that the issue is only a black community problem. In general it seems that a lot of people don't realize that a large part of society is built on racism, xenophobia, misogyny and bigotry.

Ah ok, I am aware I sometimes erroneously phrase it as a black and white issue as opposed to an all minority and even gender issue, even though I am aware it is an all encompassing problem

 

[Cassidy]

But what exactly do you expect to happen in societies where majority of population is white? Is "black privilege" not a thing in African countries? I am genuinely curious about it.

White privilege exists there too.
Many are only recently independent.

 

[That'sHernandez]

I guess what I'm trying to say is. I believe being black would count against you the more and more higher in society you go. I do get that my skin colour hasn't held me back.

Maybe these protests might change something a little. Unfortunately there will always be idiots, and racism will never go away.

Racism CAN go away. I said myself to a friend the best thing I can really do is raise my daughter and currently unborn child to not be racist, to be accepting and welcoming of all people from all walks of life. This is achievable if everyone works for it.

 

[JPRouve]

But what exactly do you expect to happen in societies where majority of population is white? Is "black privilege" not a thing in African countries? I am genuinely curious about it.

Not really, most of Africa is built on ethnicity, you are descriminated based on that.

 

[Lyricist]

Video showing him getting shot and going down, you can see he was just standing there doing literally nothing

Spoiler

Holy shit, what is happening in that country?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

And Mitch McConnell. And Lindsey Graham. Change will only happen if you pay attention and vote on everything. One of the smartest people in congress was a NY bartender who went up against the establishment and won.
Cops are on great money (overtime) and pension in a lot of places so there is also an incentive for decent people to enter into law enforcement and enact change. We will never live in a world without police brutality but we can at least have a few cops who do the right thing and arrest their colleagues for crimes that they've witnessed them commit.

Who? Ideally of course there wouldn't be a cultural problem in America regarding racism in the first place but obviously it's there. And it's there all over the word, as well and not just based on colour, but religious hatred, sexism etc are just as bad. But of course a powerful institution like the police having such an issue is even more dangerous as it is when the state is complicit in having agenda.

So without knowing as much about the American system I was wondering what solutions are there that the protestors want - now or eventually.
- police reforms/training /acknowledge ment , but what in practical terms?
- a leadership that cares and wants to bring about change. Again, through what mode would this happen?
- anything else?

But what exactly do you expect to happen in societies where majority of population is white? Is "black privilege" not a thing in African countries? I am genuinely curious about it.

Suppression of minorities and their rights is a genuine problem across the world and needs to be stamped out.

 

[JPRouve]

Ah ok, I am aware I sometimes erroneously phrase it as a black and white issue as opposed to an all minority and even gender issue, even though I am aware it is an all encompassing problem

We have all done it in this thread, I keep telling myself that I need to particularly include Native Americans and a part of the Latino community because they have the exact same problem.

 

[Cassidy]

I guess what I'm trying to say is. I believe being black will count against you the more and more higher in society you go. I do get that my skin colour hasn't held me back.

Maybe these protests might change something a little. Unfortunately there will always be idiots, and racism will never go away.

The biggest thing that needs changing right now is the institutional/systemic racism and that is worth fighting for. Its one thing when its individuals its another when its how the whole system is structured.

 

[giorno]

And yet that black person will still be followed in a shop by security, in many occasions he will still be looked liked someone that doesn't belong.

Will face disproportionate punishment for the same infractions compared to his white counterparts, will likely still face discrimination of some sort, or alienation from his peers, his every action will be far more scrutinized, and at the end of the day, even if he manages to get the exact same level of education, skills and competence in his own chosen field of work, even if he's the most likeable person in the world, even with all that, when he goes to a job interview he had to blow the interviewer away or chances are he'll still be passed over for a white person with the exact same level of education, skills and competence who didn't even make as good an impression in his interview

And even if he does blow his interviewer away, chances are HR will still decide against hiring him anyways, because they are inherently distrustful of him because of the color of his skin

 

[nimic]

Wow

This is a bizarre take especially in this thread.

Have you read the lyrics to that song?

It's one of the worst takes of the entire thread, and I think this thread has gotten half a dozen people banned based on their takes so far.

 

[BobbyManc]

This sadly still happens even today and there are studies which have shown that those with clearly 'black' or minority names in general are less likely to get called back and less likely to get a job than someone who has the exact same CV with a white or ambiguous name.

It isn't exactly like this trend is reversed in non-white countries either, where being lighter skinned is often seen as an advantage and I've seen westerners hired to do jobs they probably are not all that qualified to do well (or, in my own field, I've seen white, British trained doctors offered a higher salary than brown or Arab British trained doctors for the exact same job and with the exact same credentials).

It is difficult to qualify what exactly 'white privilege' is, especially to those who don't feel its negative effects. The problem with privilege in general is that it is so multi-faceted, with the concept itself making people feel uncomfortable. People want to feel that everything they've done, they've achieved completely off their own back. Its uncomfortable to hear that there may be factors outside your control which have contributed and which may have contributed to others struggling.

The other issue it opens is that there are different levels of privilege. Simply by growing up in the UK, you are privileged. By speaking English as our first language, we are privileged. By working here, we are privileged. By having a 'Western passport', we are privileged. I'm a male, that comes with its own privileges. Its not clear cut though. Say you take the black son of wealthy Nigerian parents, who have enough money for him to go to Eton and then Oxford. He pays no fees and comes out of university debt free. By dint of the colour of his skin, is he less privileged than a white working class boy on free school meals and who's grown up in a single parent household? No, in his general life, he will probably go on to lead a far more 'successful' and wealthy life than the other.

I'm rambling now but white privilege does not mean every white person is racist. It does not mean every white person has an easy life and has stuff handed to them. It doesn't mean every single person of colour is going to be poor and unable to lead their lives. For me, it doesn't even mean that all white people should be trying to fight it. I get it, people live hard lives and have a lot of shit going on. It is most simply and fundamentally living life without having your colour be a real factor. Without having it affect your interactions with other people negatively. Without it being in the back of your mind as you interact with others.

Great post. You’ve also reminded me of Akala’s example which I found to be eye-opening. In Britain, as a mixed-race person he is socialised simply as black. He does not get to be white, but he is as white as he is black in as far as those words have any meaning. But when he visits Jamaica the opposite kind of happens, and his lighter skin brings with it privileges and he is not socialised simply as black. It really displays how absurd the whole concept of race is.

 

[SilentWitness]

No it doesn't. Its means I don't think the term white privilege is fair. A black person could be born into a middle class family, and have far more opportunities than a white working class man.

That's not a case of privilege being attributed to race, but privilege attributed to the class. None of those opportunites are due to them being black, it's because they are middle class. Even then, you are ignoring just how many variables are placed within that.

White privilege isn't about white people not having to work hard to get to where they are or not struggling. It is about the biases and segregation that POC face when trying to get to where they are that white people do not have to face such as being targeted for crime and how that targeting is then dealt with. It's about biases that are faced such as 'I employed a black person once and they were lazy so I won't employ another' etc. It's about the fact that for a white person we don't need to protest to gain a voice because we are the voice. It's about the fact that despite the fact that there are black middle class families there is far less opportunity for POC to get to that level of class/wealth/status.

 

[africanspur]

But what exactly do you expect to happen in societies where majority of population is white? Is "black privilege" not a thing in African countries? I am genuinely curious about it.

No. In most non Western countries, there is a hierarchy and lighter skinned people go towards the top of that hierarchy.

I've seen people work in the Middle East and the Far East, in jobs they never would have gotten in their own countries and with salaries not befitting their level of experience. Skin 'lightening' creams are common across the ME, Asia and Africa and white people, whether explicitly or not, are seen as better looking and 'better' in general.

People treat you differently in non-white countries but it isn't the same. I've seen it first hand with my wife (who is mixed race but simply looks Dutch) and even amongst my kids, who are a bit of a range when it comes to colours. My wife (and lighter skinned kids) get better treatment than myself or my darker skinned kids.

 

[africanspur]

Slightly disagree with the last paragraph here. I don’t mean to sound like a white saviour but the message has been drummed for decades by the minorities and the establishments haven’t really listened; and when they have, change has been incredibly slow. It is going to take those of us in privilege to continue hammering this for the establishment to care.

Yeah that's totally fair. Of course, any and all people who want to contribute and fight injustice are very much appreciated. Im just offering my own personal view I guess. I don't judge or get angry if people aren't getting involved. Though all I ask is if you're not going to get involved to fight it, to at the very least listen to people of colour when they tell you their experiences and not immediately discount them.

 

[dove]

No. In most non Western countries, there is a hierarchy and lighter skinned people go towards the top of that hierarchy.

I've seen people work in the Middle East and the Far East, in jobs they never would have gotten in their own countries and with salaries not befitting their level of experience. Skin 'lightening' creams are common across the ME, Asia and Africa and white people, whether explicitly or not, are seen as better looking and 'better' in general.

People treat you differently in non-white countries but it isn't the same. I've seen it first hand with my wife (who is mixed race but simply looks Dutch) and even amongst my kids, who are a bit of a range when it comes to colours. My wife (and lighter skinned kids) get better treatment than myself or my darker skinned kids.

That is definitely fecked up and should never ever happen but unfortunately I don't see it changing and I think these massive protests will do more harm than good because it will strengthen nationalist and far right movements. For example I am very aware that majority of the protests are peaceful but seeing places get destroyed and looted by people carrying banners of a criminal is not a pretty view and will definitely be used in nationalist campaigns.

 

[nimic]

That is definitely fecked up and should never ever happen but unfortunately I don't see it changing and I think these massive protests will do more harm than good because it will strengthen nationalist and far right movements. For example I am very aware that majority of the protests are peaceful but seeing places get destroyed and looted by people carrying banners of a criminal is not a pretty view and will definitely be used in nationalist campaigns.

If you're afraid of strengthening the nationalist far-right, you'll end up never doing anything in the fight against injustice. I am quite sure the nationalist far-right was significantly strengthened by the end of the Civil War, by Reconstruction, by the Civil Rights movement, and so on. The only way you won't strengthen the nationalist far-right is to give them everything they want.

Also: https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality.

In any case, this is a silly thing to say:

banners of a criminal

The fact of the matter is that polls have conclusively shown that a large majority of Americans think George Floyd's death was a great injustice. This movement is in no way harmed by George Floyd.

 

[Cassidy]

That is definitely fecked up and should never ever happen but unfortunately I don't see it changing and I think these massive protests will do more harm than good because it will strengthen nationalist and far right movements. For example I am very aware that majority of the protests are peaceful but seeing places get destroyed and looted by people carrying banners of a criminal is not a pretty view and will definitely be used in nationalist campaigns.

On the contrary in many work places in the UK the protests are having a positive affect.
Where my wife currently works there is no diversity and inclusion stream in their HR department and not one person of colour has been put on the management track (despite there being of a lot of them there.)

This has opened up that dialog and it looks like changes will be made. Thats just one of a few similar stories I have heard of this week alone.

Also of course keeping the political pressure on during the cases of those cops.

Its also inspiring many people to attempt to organise long term solutions which I hope keeps on long term

Nationalist campaigns will happen regardless.

 

[JPRouve]

That is definitely fecked up and should never ever happen but unfortunately I don't see it changing and I think these massive protests will do more harm than good because it will strengthen nationalist and far right movements. For example I am very aware that majority of the protests are peaceful but seeing places get destroyed and looted by people carrying banners of a criminal is not a pretty view and will definitely be used in nationalist campaigns.

It's funny because peaceful protests strengthen nationalists and far right movements while the majority brush them away, massive protests with violence also strengthen nationalists and far right movements while a minority focus on the violence. Something tells me that the problem isn't the nature of the protests or the protesters.

 

[sun_tzu]

A fair society where black, white and other ethnic people are treated the same way? How is that so hard to understand?

Well yes and no
Given societal and institutional change typically takes time to implement and embed then what are the short term measures that would convince the protesters to stop at the moment?
I doubt a tweet from trump that he wants a fair society where black, white and other ethnic people are treated the same would cut it... and a structural change in the police, its approach and its governance will take years
So whilst your statement is almost impossible to argue with it also does not give a clear way forward to amicably ending protests in the short term

 

[Mr Pigeon]

What are peoples thoughts on the idea of White Privilege? As far as I can tell it's a bit of a poor term to describe the problems of racism. Not that privilege doesn't exist, but this term makes me very uncomfortable. It basically says if you are white, you are the cause of the problem, which is nonsense.

With respect. No it doesn't, the cause of the problem is white folk getting super defensive whenever someone points out that being white in our society means you're less likely to get discriminated against, or shot for going for a jog, or having someone call the police on you for asking them to put their dog on the leash. It's really got nothing to do with "being part of the problem"

Although if a protestor says something along the lines of "we just want the same protection that white people have" and someone responds with a self indulgent "how can I make this about me" then, yeah, now that someone is a cause of the problem.

 

[JPRouve]

Well yes and no
Given societal and institutional change typically takes time to implement and embed then what are the short term measures that would convince the protesters to stop at the moment?
I doubt a tweet from trump that he wants a fair society where black, white and other ethnic people are treated the same would cut it... and a structural change in the police, its approach and its governance will take years
So whilst your statement is almost impossible to argue with it also does not give a clear way forward to amicably ending protests in the short term

Protest fatigue will stop them. There is nothing that can be shortly implemented that will genuinely convince anyone.

 

[dove]

It's funny because peaceful protests strengthen nationalists and far right movements while the majority brush them away, massive protests with violence also strengthen nationalists and far right movements while a minority focus on the violence. Something tells me that the problem isn't the nature of the protests or the protesters.

It's definitely "damned if you do and damned if you don't" case. I hope it will have a positive affect but I just can't see it.

 

[psychdelicblues]

Nah she makes some great points. Worth a listen

She's the face of the right wing TPUSA . She is the closet racists wet dream, a black person who trashes other black people, spouting the usual talking points. She just did her usual grift, spouting black crime statistics while spitting in the grave of George Floyd.

 

[arnie_ni]

No it doesn't. Its means I don't think the term white privilege is fair. A black person could be born into a middle class family, and have far more opportunities than a white working class man.

Thats the case regardless of colour.

You need to compare like for like, middle class to middle class.

 

[SteveJ]

Isn't it typical that a phrase like 'white privilege' gets wilfully framed as aggressive and rude? That framing is yet another chapter in the history of depicting Black people as crude, intimidating, and outspoken. All it is, surely, is a very necessary message that essentially says: 'You take things for granted, things that I cannot take for granted. Let me speak, and tell you what those things are,'

 

[Dante]

Whereas the only finger I put down was because one time a woman crossed the road when I was walking behind her, which itself is something I would never think to do as a guy.

I'm one of the lucky ones. I have quite a non-threatening preppy look about me.

 

[sun_tzu]

Protest fatigue will stop them. There is nothing that can be shortly implemented that will genuinely convince anyone.

Possibly... but with protests on such scale nationwide I do wonder if they run out of police to effectively work double/ triple shifts before the protests naturally stop

 

[OL29]

I don't like it. It implies that I've had a helping had in my life based on the colour of my skin. I'm a normal working class person. I've had no helping hand. Its a blanket statement.

I think it more refers to privileges white people get that minorities aren’t afforded a lot of the time. It can range from something as trivial as not being followed by security in an expensive shop, to being denied job opportunities based on your ethnicity.

No one’s saying that all white people have a helping hand in life, simply that the based on the colour of your skin alone, you won’t encounter some of the issues that minorities encounter.

 

[PepsiCola]

I don't like it. It implies that I've had a helping had in my life based on the colour of my skin. I'm a normal working class person. I've had no helping hand. Its a blanket statement.

It's very much a real tangible thing, you being aware of it or not.

 

[dove]

On the contrary in many work places in the UK the protests are having a positive affect.
Where my wife currently works there is no diversity and inclusion stream in their HR department and not one person of colour has been put on the management track (despite there being of a lot of them there.)

This has opened up that dialog and it looks like changes will be made. Thats just one of a few similar stories I have heard of this week alone.

Also of course keeping the political pressure on during the cases of those cops.

Its also inspiring many people to attempt to organise long term solutions which I hope keeps on long term

Nationalist campaigns will happen regardless.

I hope it will have a positive effect. In an ideal world you would choose employees based purely on his skills, not the looks. That's how it should be but unfortunately it clearly isn't. Just hoping that businesses won't be pressured in hiring people of specific ethnicities because I personally know a case just like that.

 

[PepsiCola]

What are peoples thoughts on the idea of White Privilege? As far as I can tell it's a bit of a poor term to describe the problems of racism. Not that privilege doesn't exist, but this term makes me very uncomfortable. It basically says if you are white, you are the cause of the problem, which is nonsense.

It depends. Do you speak out against the issue and hold up to the privileges you've had which PoCs are not afforded?

Being silent to the issues is equal to being complicit.

 

[Grinner]

People, if you want to post videos of songs from shitty bands that you think are meaningful then go and create a suitable thread in the Entertainment Forum.

 

[fergieisold]

With respect. No it doesn't, the cause of the problem is white folk getting super defensive whenever someone points out that being white in our society means you're less likely to get discriminated against, or shot for going for a jog, or having someone call the police on you for asking them to put their dog on the leash. It's really got nothing to do with "being part of the problem"

Although if a protestor says something along the lines of "we just want the same protection that white people have" and someone responds with a self indulgent "how can I make this about me" then, yeah, now that someone is a cause of the problem.

I agree with this, I've seen a lot of it on Facebook - the main angle at the moment from angry white people is posting George Floyd's criminal record as if that in someway justifies his murder .

 

[syrian_scholes]

Well, I'd imagine it would help to have a leader who gives a shit and would at least push for change. Although obviously the republicans who want to be led by a bigot also have to want change, to get it to happen.

True, but elections are on November and governors/mayors could kick-start change until then if they want.

 

[MrMarcello]

A former WH aide and current Senior Campaign Advisor retweeted a message praising the bravery of the Chainsaw Champ from a few pages back (he has been arrested). This is the level of stupid we have running things.

Politico

“I deeply apologize and I retweeted without watching the full video. I deleted the tweet,” Schlapp wrote. “I would never knowingly promote the use of that word. This is time for healing the nation and not division.”

If anyone falls for this excuse I've got ocean front property to sell in Arizona.

 

[Ødegaard]

Wonder if the people who supported his free speech will do it now.

 

[Ludens the Red]

People, if you want to post videos of songs from shitty bands that you think are meaningful then go and create a suitable thread in the Entertainment Forum.

I know you’re not talking about Rage and System of a Down

 

[MrMarcello]

FFS. She has never made a good point in her life. Read up on who she is.

Here, I'll post for those that want to push her bullshit agenda. She's no different than many others simply seeing an opportunity to cash in from racial tensions and polarized political climate.

https://newsone.com/3848636/candace-owens-receipts-con-artist/
Every Receipt Proving Candace Owens Is A Con Artist Who Is Following The Money
We have the receipts.

 

[oates]

Isn't it typical that a phrase like 'white privilege' gets wilfully framed as aggressive and rude? That framing is yet another chapter in the history of depicting Black people as crude, intimidating, and outspoken. All it is, surely, is a very necessary message that essentially says: 'You take things for granted, things that I cannot take for granted. Let me speak, and tell you what those things are,'

If it doesn't make us feel a bit guilty for everything that has gone before to whatever degree then it isn't working. There's nothing wrong with feeling a little guilt over what our ancestors have done, it is making History work for us for a change.

 

[Walrus]

Re: White Privilege and other such terms. One thing I will say is that it does get a bit wearing and saddening as a straight white male, to be constantly made out to be the "bad guy" in any given social situation. Be it a discussion on sexism, racism or virtually any other similar topic, the straight while male is always the one to blame - the bad guy, the villain of the piece. Now I accept that this is because historically (and more recently) a lot of the prejudice and discrimination has indeed come from that/my demographic, but nonetheless constantly hearing that you (in an impersonal sense) are the bad guy, that your accomplishments count for less because you had xyz advantages. I see online discussions where people get jumped on and told their opinions are invalid because they are white/male, and everyone is eager to take the other persons side, regardless of who is right and who is wrong.

Personally, I am pretty comfortable in my views - I support the protests, and I acknowledge that white privilege is a thing - but I can also see how it can start to create a bit of a siege mentality when every other demographic in modern society seems to have it in for you.