I think Pep, Tuchel and maybe less so, Klopp do it regularly. I am sure it's much more common in Italy for example. It's just that our managers have been traditionally not ideologists with the exception of Van Gaal and I seem to remember he talked some tactics in his interviews.
Ralf’s 4-2-2-2
- Thread starter Desert Eagle
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I noticed that, too. I think they were just a little closer together, giving teams less space to exploit through the middle.
I agree with this, I think this is the big difference. By limiting the options for our attacking mids and forcing them to stay central the wing backs become essential for providing width.
And we have reasonably competent wing backs in Dalot and Telles so it works out.
I don't agree that cluttering by itself is a bad thing .. many teams try to create the overload on the flank - one striker (say in a 4-4-2 or #10 in the 4-2-3-1) drifts wide, the fullback and the winger are in the same zone and that creates a 3v2 if the CB doesn't go with the striker. Pretty standard stuff.
Obvious solution is to have an extra CM (say the RCM) out to help and have the LW, LCM cover McFred. That leaves a switch of play open to AwB and we used to take that option but he's not great on the ball, it wasn't a huge deal for opposing teams.
It was almost identical in a 4-2-3-1 where Pogba, Bruno play. Let's just evaluate the attacking phase instead of the transitions or the defence. Our attack is quite heavily lopsided to happen from the LW and typical positions are
------------------------ Cavani --- Greenwood ----------
----- Shaw -------- Pogba --------- Bruno --- AwB --
------------------------- Fred --- McT -------------------------
.....
Greenwood, Cavani make almost a front two with AwB providing the width. Bruno covering the center / right half space, Pogba covering center / left half space.
Of course there's a lot of minor variations and movement depending on the situation.
More I think about it, the more I feel like the really major changes are taking away the attacking freedom from some of our players. Rashford, Bruno especially don't cut wide and mess around. Bruno doesn't make his penalty box runs at all, the goalscoring is left to Ronaldo / Rashford etc.
Last edited:
I wouldn't say it's definitely the future because ultimately a new manager is probably going to come in and have a say on this.
I think it's more about the style of play within the structure. I think RR would say so himself, the formation is less important than improving us.
I think it's partly based on pragmatism in that he's realised we don't really want Ronaldo on his own up front. Firstly because he looks better with a partner and second we want somebody close to him helping to engage the press. If we're going to get 2 up front and he doesn't like a back 5 then it's one of only a few possible options.
He probably got to this adjustment by process of elimination. A back 5 was largely bad for us. 4-4-2 diamond makes no sense because we have an abundance of attacking options and little depth in midfield. Flat 4-4-2s are not really in vogue. So really it's just a slight adjustment of the 4-2-3-1 roles and not a wholesale change but it's enough to achieve his goal.
I think it's more about the style of play within the structure. I think RR would say so himself, the formation is less important than improving us.
I think it's partly based on pragmatism in that he's realised we don't really want Ronaldo on his own up front. Firstly because he looks better with a partner and second we want somebody close to him helping to engage the press. If we're going to get 2 up front and he doesn't like a back 5 then it's one of only a few possible options.
He probably got to this adjustment by process of elimination. A back 5 was largely bad for us. 4-4-2 diamond makes no sense because we have an abundance of attacking options and little depth in midfield. Flat 4-4-2s are not really in vogue. So really it's just a slight adjustment of the 4-2-3-1 roles and not a wholesale change but it's enough to achieve his goal.
Last edited:
I'd like to see DVDB there and Pogba could play there until he leaves this summer (hopefully).
I don't think we're going long term with 4222, it's just what's easier to implement with 1 week training I think.
Give it time we'd be exploring more complicated play.
4222 is just basic and easier to implement with everyone having a lateral person to pass to
Give it time we'd be exploring more complicated play.
4222 is just basic and easier to implement with everyone having a lateral person to pass to
So Solskjaer's gone but he's still undroppable? We have a new manager now mate if he want's to drop him he will, Ralf doesn't seem like the type who would give a feck about leaving a player out.
There's another possibility that could unfold though. Call me crazy but what if Rangnick like Solskjaer thinks he's the best option we have?
VdB, Pogba (Lingard)
Pogba is hopeless off the ball though. Him and Ronaldo in the same team makes it hard to press. On the ball he's definitely better with dealing with others team press than Bruno and the latter has been poor almost all season too. Stylistically Pogba would have to adapt big time
Teams carry out video analysis these days. Everyone knows how everybody else plays. Every team we play will know hoe Rangnick sets his teams up. Its about execution and tweaks made for the game.
Rangnick said double no.10 is the most demanding role under his system, as it requires them to press a lot, and to organize attack effectively after winning ball back. Pogba would indeed excel in the 2nd part (organize attack), but he would be totally hopeless in the first part (intense pressing).
The only thing I worry about McFred in this new system is, although Fred, who has been brilliant in this high pressing role, they tend to loss the ball casually/unnecessarily with their poor passing, which may gifted opponents chances of counter attack, especially when we are playing with high defence line with slow Maguire as our last defender. This could be suicidal at times.
Buy Livramento asap.
It seems to be a very flexible system in defence and attack.
More of the same
More of the same
I think the biggest difference is, when we are doing off the ball pressing, 4222 allows us better shape to do double up or even triangle in pressing. We need to have players standing closer to each other to effectively press as a team. With 4231, the job of lone striker would be insanely difficult to cut off the passing line of 4 defenders.
Also putting extra man on the wing as in 4231 would stretch our team wider in shape, which makes it harder for us to press as a team. Normally we only need our attacking full back to provide width, with double no.10 helping out the flanks if necessary I guess.
Is that mctominay hiding behind an opponent and pointing?
Fred really impressed with his clever positioning, but it was wasted on the likes of Maguire.
Notice how their #6 is tied down by needing to close Bruno on the left flank and the other midfielder similarly needs to stay with McT where Fred created plenty of space to receive the ball, turn towards CP goal and transition into lightening attack, but Maguire is totally incapable to read any of it and slows us down with toothless horizontal pass to Lindlof, completely killing our momentum.
Horrible decision-making
In post-match, he mentioned the couple of square passes in the first half that he didn’t like. I think he was referring to specific moments in which their square passes actually put pressure on our midfield. He was in no way saying that he doesn’t like square passing in general. Rumour mills just picked that up and likely ran away with it to make up stuff.
This formation suits Ud's squad. 2 forwards - Ronaldo and Rashford interchanging with Cavani and Greenwood. 2 No 10s Bruno and Sancho interchanching with Pogba and Donny.
Central midfield still a bit light with only Matic, McTom and Fred. Unless Ralf intends to promote a younger player in that position I think Utd will almost certainly sign a central midfielder in January.
Central midfield still a bit light with only Matic, McTom and Fred. Unless Ralf intends to promote a younger player in that position I think Utd will almost certainly sign a central midfielder in January.
It really doesn't matter that much. Everything he said was obvious to any non coach watching the game. Any coach of a PL team already knows those things by watching this game.
Also- he is playing the media. He talks about controlling the game by being proactive. He is building a narrative so other teams feel we are pressing when we play them (even if our players jog over in a few cases).
Yesterday, Palace rushed so many passes because after our first 30 mins, they were always wary of being closed down quickly. One pass in particular around the 85th min, their midfielder had acres of space but tried a Hollywood ball to a well defended attacker because he was too rushed to assess the situation.
Speaking openly about stuff you want to do but haven't done properly yet has its benefits.
It was obvious from the get go Sancho was playing more behind Ronaldo and Rashford wasnt hugging the byline but was near Ronaldo too. Bruno was all over the pitch as were other players. No fixed positions and no standing around for the most part like before. I like that 4-2-2-2 formation but it will need work cause yesterday we were gased after 30th minute. Also we're in a dire need of a midfielder but thats not something new.
This formation suits Sancho perfectly cause it involves him making a lot of one twos and opening, he's not really a out and out winger as in running near the line and dribbling. Also it provides help to Ronaldo who isnt doing it all by himself upfront.
Btw when is Cavani back?
This formation suits Sancho perfectly cause it involves him making a lot of one twos and opening, he's not really a out and out winger as in running near the line and dribbling. Also it provides help to Ronaldo who isnt doing it all by himself upfront.
Btw when is Cavani back?
Because they drop into a 4-4-2 when defending and if Rashford doesnt find form who is better on the left side? Martial? Lingard? Play Sancho in his unfavored position? All could work but I think Pogba would be much better if he's committed. The passing ability and interchange between a 3 of Pogba/Bruno/Sancho could be quite something.
Quite possibly, half he team are guilty of it on a regular basis. Hoping one thing that does come out of Rangnicks time here is getting the players to move the ball quicker and take on more risky forward passes.
He pretty much played it identically when he played on the LW for Solskjaer already. Just depends if he can keep the work rate up.
Isn’t 4222 his most commonly used formation? That’s what I’ve been reading at least.
Yes hes answered now. Basically hes just guessing the opposite of a lot of outlets. As I said to him, I only put it out there for debate.
Yes I watched some Liverpool highlights on youtube when it shows you all the games after they have been played and they occasionally square pass and pass back, probably nowhere near our defensive 6 did though.
It's surely his most used formation in recent times, with Leipzig. Fits the team as Ronaldo can play up top with a partner to do extra work, and we can get two 10s into the team. To me it seems the most likely and the best option.
That’s not what I saw versus Arsenal, nor yesterday in fairness.
I have noticed that as well and I personally love when coaches explain in detail how and why they chose to do it in a certain way.
I don’t think this is a risk. The other teams will all have figured it out in their analyses anyway. But for us supporters it gives a comforting feeling to know we have a coach with a clear idea, who makes choices with a purpose.
He passed it to lindelof and then we scored 18 seconds later. What a horrible decision from Maguire
Fred really impressed with his clever positioning, but it was wasted on the likes of Maguire.
Notice how their #6 is tied down by needing to close Bruno on the left flank and the other midfielder similarly needs to stay with McT where Fred created plenty of space to receive the ball, turn towards CP goal and transition into lightening attack, but Maguire is totally incapable to read any of it and slows us down with toothless horizontal pass to Lindlof, completely killing our momentum.
Horrible decision-making
That's what I think as well. It's a good idea to start with, but somehow I doubt it will be long term with us. I'd expect a narrow 4-2-3-1 with the "3" interchanging, or 3 man midfield if we can bring another midfielder in the winter. If not then 2 man midfield until the end of the season surely.
If we persist with this then it’s crucial that Cavani gets fit.
Doesn't fit the narrative though, does it?He passed it to lindelof and then we scored 18 seconds later. What a horrible decision from Maguire
Rangnick talks about that in some interviews. When his players press high up it is key that the CBs immediately starts to mark the 1-2 forwards to shut them down and avoid counters.
Maguire probably remembered Fred’s ability to play on the half turn against Leicester and thought feck that.
Pogba seems to become a better player the longer he is not playing. Bruno would be twice the player Pogba is in the number 10 role not to mention twice as hard working.
The only hole Pogba is in, is the one leading to the exit door.
The only hole Pogba is in, is the one leading to the exit door.
Absolutely. Cavani is made for this kind of approach.
This isn't true, what they call "4-2-3-1" is just Poulsen with someone who was not a striker on paper like Sabitzer who'd slot in next to him in the same 4-2-2-2. The guys on transfermarkt etc. just put it in as 4-2-3-1 for some reason. If anything I'd expect a 4-3-1-2.
I am quite pleased that lots of people were complaining about our so-called 4-2-4 and now we are kind of lined up in a 4-2-4 but now we are calling it 4-2-2-2.
Just shows formations and the way they are written down don't matter but positioning, tactics, and the team working together are much more important.
Just shows formations and the way they are written down don't matter but positioning, tactics, and the team working together are much more important.
4-2-2-2 is his preferred formation, he played that alot at Leipzig.
Also are you saying 4-2-2-2 is easy to implement with 1 training session? Its actually one of the harder formations to implement.
Having 2 CAM's, having to have them defend, tracking the full back, having 2 up front making sure the midfield is not over run?
4-2-3-1 would be the easiest to implement because the team already plays it.