I totally agree. I was totally for lockdowns while we were at early stages and didn’t know the mortality etc., but know with vaccinations rates as they are we shouldn’t encourage any lockdowns. Masks? Yes, please. Social distancing? Yes, enforce in closed spaces. More capacity to handle covid patients? Yes, please. Strict rules in hospitals? Yes. Boosters? Sure. While it’s clear when hospitals get overwhelmed normal treatments do have to get postponed but there’s as much evidence to say that normal medical services are not available for people during lockdowns as doctors opt to do the phone consultations which arguably bring more harm overall. That’s not even touching upon topics associated with mental health.
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
- Start date
Its quite depressing that this sort of thing exists these days. The absolute stupidity of this sort of thing thats circulating is horrifying.
Thanks man.
Will we get a definite answer from Pfizer/AZ/Moderna about the effectiveness of vaccines on this new variant any time soon?
Not really, not definite anyway. They may have neutralisation results (take blood from vaxxed person see if it kills the virus in a test tube) next week. You'll then probably see headlines saying that the vaccine looks less effective at stopping infection - that's to be expected, because the ready to go antibodies won't be quite as well tuned to this mutation as they were to the Wuhan original. They might get an idea of how much less effective by comparing results to past trials with alpha, beta and Delta
But those ready to go antibodies are only part of the immune response that vaccines train. The others are memory cells and they can tweak the recipe when they see another variant to produce new antibodies. It's much harder to test those in a test tube and we won't really know how well they're working until we see it in real life in real people. It might be that people do catch it, but the vaccine still protects them from serious illness.
We’re grand, mild symptoms at the mo. He’s 9
Australia to start vaccinating the 5-12 age group very soon. Excellent news.
https://www.theguardian.com/society...receive-pfizer-covid-vaccine-from-mid-january
https://www.theguardian.com/society...receive-pfizer-covid-vaccine-from-mid-january
Nobody wants them or likes them but they are essential to protect your people until a) you can get a huge proportion of people vaccinated and b) when they are required to prevent the hospital system melting down.
AU and NZ have done this very successfully and are now fairly restriction free and apart from masks on public transport things will hopefully be back to fairly normal by the end of Jan.
In comparison Sweden has had 3000 deaths per million people, Australia 77 and NZ 4 per mill. NZ and Sweden are the same size and Sweden has had a total of 15000 deaths and NZ 44.
If preventing 15,000 deaths doesn't trigger a "last resort" action I don't know what would.
being in favour of lockdowns and loving them are two very different things
No idea how you tackle this, but it's abundantly clear that the unvaccinated are clogging up wards including ICU, and delaying cancer and transplant operations.
Medical staff speaking out about it in lead story in the Times today.
Doctors and nurses vent anger as unvaccinated Covid cases delay vital operations
Medical staff speaking out about it in lead story in the Times today.
Doctors and nurses vent anger as unvaccinated Covid cases delay vital operations
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-covid-cases-delay-vital-operations-z3zchvv9l
Austria, Switzerland, Greece, Portugal, Belgium have the same size populations too and much more in common than an isolated island in the middle of the pacific.
There are a tonne of fellow European countries that started great, had their multiple lockdowns and ended up worse per capita regardless. So yes, it’s way more nuanced than simply “lockdowns save lives” long term. Have they saved lives in Aus and NZ so far? Yes, they’ve been an important part of their responses. When used as part of an elimination strategy they’ve been much more successful, absolutely.
Have they in Austria, Greece, Switzerland? Hmmm…. Much much more nuanced and appears to line up with what I banged on about constantly last year, that they were simply kicking the can down the road and that they even made their following peaks larger due to the champagne cork effect. That’s not even a debate any longer, as much as you were desperate to dismiss it last year.
Last edited:
And some love them, the actual poster I quoted said “I’d love another lockdown”.
You're such a weirdo
Aye, the one who doesn’t think lockdowns in Europe especially, and now has a tonne of data to back that up, have tended make much difference with the long term death rate per capita, and thinks they have too often been used incorrectly (not as part of an elimination strategy like Aus/NZ) and long before they are a last resort is the weirdo.
I’m the weirdo for wanting the World to learn to deal with Covid without locking healthy people in their homes and to understand that they aren’t always necessary to keep hospitals from overflowing, especially now with the help of the vaccines.
I’m the weirdo for wanting my company to continue running for more than a few months and not constantly at risk of bankruptcy.
I’m the weirdo for wanting to be able to visit family and friends in other European countries more regularly than once every two years again.
I’m the weirdo for not wanting us to utterly cripple our economies further, something that people have completely ignored by asking for more lockdowns. We’ve only begun to scratch the surface on our long term cost for these lockdowns.
I’m the weirdo because I’m well aware if the side effects, now well documented, of lockdowns and want them avoided and used only as a last resort.
And for what it’s worth, it’s never been RAB from the cafs opinion, it’s been the opinion of the experts over here, that long term these lockdowns that aren’t used Aus-esque and not as a last resort, would ultimately make little difference and were simply kicking the can down the road. They’ve been bloody well proven correct.
Last edited:
And they are quite right to feel that way aren't they.
When there is a problem and a solution is provided, free of charge and individuals reject that solution, they should be the ones who are responsible for their actions.
But in this case, they are causing others to be affected.
This is especially bad when the NHS is concerned.
Wonder if they will reject the pill as well.
https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...and-it-could-happen-before-christmas-12487030
Ok mate
They won’t reject the pill, I’ve met a whole bunch of these nutters and I always ask them, what they do when they get a headache, or if they get prescribed medication at the doctors. They all say “well yeah I take medication”.
These vaccine cause autism feck wits have caused so much damage.
@Regulus Arcturus Black you’re entitled to your opinion, so fine. But the condescending and rude nature of your posts is a bit odd. Not to mention, you’re acting like your theory is proven in fact (it isn’t) and that the “other similar” European countries to Sweden you list (they aren’t) somehow factually validate your claim. It’s just a bizarre way to act. Whilst all the while using one post from one person 10 times to somehow try and push the point that many people on here love lockdowns. It’s just odd behaviour. And it’s no wonder why it doesn’t appear many want to give you the time of day for a proper debate.
Well said. I gave up on him ages ago.
I think some of you are lockdown nutters and would mask up and go in and out lockdown for eternity, with no consideration given to the effects of that, let’s put that out there first.
I’ve had to deal with all sorts of bollocks in this thread from last year, when no-one wanted any debate. Lockdowns were good, I was a moron etc. And the countries I listed were all proof of this because their stats last Summer were so much better, no-one wanted to listen when I said let’s wait 18 months and see.
Arruda shut down one debate in May, showing Portugal to be so much better than Sweden (with so many less deaths) with a post saying the Swedish experts were morons, look at the two countries death toll and signed off with a rude as feck “I told you so”.
I said then, as I say now, it’s way way way more nuanced than that, and the champagne cork effect the experts here predicted, absolutely have come to pass in these European countries with similar populations (yes, that’s absolutely what they are).
So for all the Mourinho memes, and the rude as feck responses to any nuanced debate I wanted last year, I’m not really arsed that no-one wants to debate, they didn’t then, they certainly won’t now when so many have been proven categorically wrong, because as it turns out, yes, it’s way more nuanced than simply “lockdowns good, save lives”.
Last edited:
Well at least you’re transparent about your agenda … I’ll give you that.
Only issue I have is why restrictions on those who choose not to get vaccinated are seen by some as beyond the pale but restrictions on everyone, in part because of those refusing to vaccinate, is something some people are okay with.
The response to latest moves on the continent on social media met with horror by people who aren’t covid deniers, openly calling for further lockdowns for everyone.
The response to latest moves on the continent on social media met with horror by people who aren’t covid deniers, openly calling for further lockdowns for everyone.
Absolutely. I was turned into a meme after all so nuanced debate aint what I’m after, I’m after showing how stupid those “I told you so” posts and rude as feck shutting down of debates were.
That's a pretty bold statement and could be applied to a lot of ailments which routinely cost the NHS billions.
For what it's worth, I am very much pro-vaccination (despite the problems my second vaccine appeared to cause me) but I respect people's freedom of choice.
The idea of mandated vaccines, which is the next step, really troubles me, if I'm honest. The fact that we're in an age where a modern, European country would do that boggles my mind. The BBC are even appearing to push it this morning with an article showing three "pro's and cons", none of which is the very obvious implications of a Government being able to take away basic freedoms if you don't submit to being injected with something you don't want.
My opinion of the people running the UK is that they are (largely) either inherently corrupt, inept, or both and the idea that they will always have my best interests at heart isn't something I accept. Eroding people's basic human rights is dangerous, and that seems to be being lost in the debate.
There's a clear and significant shift in terms of the state overreach the average person now seems willing to accept. I really struggle with that.
Last edited:
It’s clearly disingenuous to say most people on here love lockdowns - most people support them. I don’t think it’s disingenuous to say a good chunk of people are yearning for an Italy-style approach to the unvaccinated. It’s not just something that we have to do, but something that they want to do, because it’s righteous (it vindicates their decision) and because it punishes bad behaviour.
There are hundreds of posts that show both of those underlying motivations, it’s pretty much fashionable at this point to talk about the unvaccinated people as less worthy individuals, and it’s legitimate to take glee in their suffering.
You’re the weirdo because you’re on a one man crusade, taking your own opinion too seriously, and trying to ram it down other people’s throats with an air of smugness. Believe it or not, you are not the oracle of truth, you did not see what others couldn’t see, you just staked out a position and defended it with so much aggression and condescension that kept people out of the conversation. And after taking that approach you’ve just doubled down every time.
It makes it impossible for anyone to take your points seriously, and it creates a caricature of the debate you tried to create. Now you’re not even trying to debate, you’re just trying to prove your point. But no one cares about your point any more, you’ve lost that legitimacy. It’s just a weird personal vendetta, just some person screaming into a screen.
It’s pretty obvious why vaccinated people have a dim view of those who have no good reason to not get vaccinated yet still choose not to.
Unvaccinated people are taking up a wildly disproportionate amount of shared healthcare resources. One of the most fundamental concepts that makes a society function is fairness around using resources. And when a minority of people drain the majority of resources because of (what can be reasonably perceived as) selfish reasons then they don’t have a leg to stand on if the majority are in favour of measures intended to reverse that inherently unfair situation and/or lack sympathy when unvaccinated people get sick.
And that’s without even getting into the other consequences of the unvaccinated doing more than most to drive continued high community transmission. The recent increased restrictions in UK/Ireland, that absolutely nobody wants, being the most obvious example.
None of the above has anything to do with being righteous.
Last edited:
Sure, you believe it’s justified, I don’t, we don’t really need to parse that out. But the point is @Vidic_In_Moscow wasn’t making anything up when he said people are yearning for that kind of policy to be enacted. That yearning is founded on arguments much like yours. There’s nothing disingenuous about saying that people don’t just think it’s a last resort (like lockdowns) but instead think it’s an entirely legitimate and ethical decision on various levels, and for many it can’t come soon enough.
He was just being a twat and picking a fight without adding anything useful to the discussion.
What everyone wants most of all is better vaccine take-up, which would remove the need for measures like these. As for yearning, what they really yearn for is an end to this shit show, which is being prolonged by the vaccine avoidant.
Me and the young fella just got our negative results. So just colds. Yeehaa!
We have high vaccine take-up and consistently the need for lockdowns have been espoused even before omicron was I thing. It's fine to think lockdowns are appropriate in some situations. Nobody sensible would disagree. But it can't be avoided that there are some who have constantly wished for lockdowns and who have constantly dropped negative interpretations of (preliminary when it comes to omicron) data to encourage that and/or to support the view that anything that has ever relaxed restrictions is always unwise or premature. Even when cases were low and vaccine take-up of the first two doses were rapidly increasing in the summer the argument was still we should lockdown longer than we did, hold off more with lifting restrictions. Some people are ideologically wedded to the idea of perpetual restrictions. Maybe out of fear and caution. But just as there are those who get rightly mocked for believing any form of restrictions or measures to mitigate the impact of the virus exist, those who think any lifting of measures in response to higher vaccinations or falling hospitalisations also exists.
Team Independent Sage vs Team GB News.
Self-selecting evidence to justify what is actually an ideological position. People who do that from both sides are as bad as each other. But recently the tantamount to hand-rubbing we've seen with people jumping on preliminary data with omicron doesn't get a free-pass because it's the anti-nutter nutters doing it
Team Independent Sage vs Team GB News.
Self-selecting evidence to justify what is actually an ideological position. People who do that from both sides are as bad as each other. But recently the tantamount to hand-rubbing we've seen with people jumping on preliminary data with omicron doesn't get a free-pass because it's the anti-nutter nutters doing it
great to hear!
Yes I posted that and you seem to quote me as frequently as possible...people are different and have different POVs. I for one enjoy the lockdowns as one of the things the time away from work allows me to do, is a huge amount of voluntary work in the charity sector which I love.
You, it seems, are anti-lockdown, which is fair enough.
Personally, I'd prefer the absolute fecktards in the UK Government to do more to limit the spread of this new variant until we have more data, and implement rules that makes sense - rather than a lockdown. However, that's where we may be heading, time will tell.
I've been calling the new varient Omnicron for the last week. I'm such an idiot.
Nice one buddy.
You never watched futurama did you
Wanting something so destructive because it suits you in your bubble is incredibly selfish. You have to completely ignore all the harm it brings others, or care so little about others.
No. I also only did Latin in school.
I'll join you there
That’s really debatable and from what we have seen now we have to learn to live with it.
It won’t just go away and we really don’t know how long the vaccines protect which makes the green certificates really useless in grand scheme of things.
The pill is something I look forward to, which could be a real turnaround.
Totally agreed. Just get vaccinated you idiotic selfish pricks.
And to the idiots in charge help vaccinate the entire world out of self interest if nothing else.
The idea that advocating for lockdowns when necessary equates to wanting/enjoying them is ludicrous. We all want this shit show to end but preferably with a few dead people as possible and that means preventing hospitals from being overwhelmed.
I'm still clinging to the vague hope that Omicron will be more infectious but less harmful, especially to the vaccinated, wipe out Delta and help the return to normality. Lots of things need to line up for that to be true but you can hope.
Last edited: