Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK

sun_tzu

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Replaying also to your previous reply to me.

Thanks for outlining the exact circumstances and frameworks of Javed’s decision.

There is 0% likelihood that she will voluntarily apply for Bangladeshi citizenship. Why would she, and I’m sure her lawyers would never ever allow her to. Even if she did, Bangladesh would find ways to deny.

If British state refuse to fund her journey back, there will be charity donors who would, so that’s also a pathetic tactic from the state to fulfil it’s responsibility for its citizen.

Given the court has held Government to account so far, it’s pretty obvious how this will play out: Britain will have to accept responsibility for its citizen, which was the case all along.

What Javed has achieved is to unfairly pit the judiciary against the state again, simply to win some right wing opinion that it already owns. Made sense pre election to win some votes, but with an 80 seat majority, it’s now just a waste of time for everyone.

Being her home, find her guilty if you can (innocent until proved guilty?!), if not put her on a watch list and be done with it. This is a problem created by the Tories. They will also have to accept the fall out.
Not so sure about charities - I mean the thing is you would be actively breaking the law by smuggling her into the UK (she has no legal route to the uk as her citizenship has been stripped and therefore passport revoked) - and committing numerous offences likley to get the charity and individuals in a huge amount of trouble - perhaps at arms length with no traceability but i dont see many charities / lawyers willing to risk the reprocussions of activley smuggling somebody who admits to having joined ISIS into the UK - Im guessing that would bring terrorist offences against them as well (pretty sure the home office would throw a lot of police resource into investigating how she got back into the country if somebody smuggled her in)

Im not sure how it will play out - I think the home office feel pretty confident that they had the right to strip citizenship when she was under 21 as she had the legal right to citizenship elsewhere - I can see her ending up as a stateless refugee in the UK that the government us unable to deport or meaningfully prosecute - Im sure the brexiteers will still try to blame the EHRC

Unless the UK government can secure a remote link for the trial in which case I can see her ending up a stateless refugee in Syria
 
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Penna

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She doesn't have any children still alive. She's had three children while she's been abroad and they've all died out there, poor kids.

Much as we might like to abandon her, the UK needs to bring her back, charge her and give her a fair trial. If she stays in a high-security prison for the next 30 years, so be it. I read today that apart from Bangladesh not wanting her, she could face the death penalty there - another reason why the UK needs to deal with her.
 

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I think I can give you some background as someone who grew up around Islam.

You might think this is twisting the narrative but I know that a lot of people do/did think like this. Establishing a caliphate has always been a big political thing in Islam, a faux notion of a muslim 'utopia' going back to the first Caliphate right after Muhammad died. It's seen as a way to unite the scattered muslim community and for a lot of people to right the injustices being done to Muslims around the world (e.g. in Palestine, the Rohingyas, the Uighurs, in India; and Chechnya, Kosova, Bosnia etc before them..). Now obviously we know what Isis is and became, but I remember when they first declared a caliphate I read a popular Islam forum online and there was a lot of I guess sceptical hope that it could become something good. In theory it's what some people do want, obviously the application was horrible.

Now I should add - this politicisation of Islam is somewhat controversial - the majority of Muslims I know see it as a personal religion - but there is the grey area where it becomes political and that's where a large part of the terrorism comes from. Unlike Christianity which went through a long (and often bloody, e.g. the 30 years war) secularisation process, Islam never really had something similar. Even Judaism has reform sects - Islam as it is now is still largely what it was a thousand years ago.

Now the question would be why did Shamima go join Isis? I would bet good money that it's because she thought she was going to build a good Islamic society - not because she'd get to commit atrocities. Of course the fact that atrocities had been committed by the time she had joined and I think she said something like she wasn't bothered about the killings work against her - maybe she is a nutjob who deserves abandoning. But I think it's much more likely for 3 kids collectively to join for a positive cause than one that's murderous. You have to take in to account the grooming aspect and what messages she's likely to have received during this time.

On the guy in Reading - again to give an understanding of the other side, they usually see it as a form of retaliation for attacks on the Muslim community, e.g. against Iraq, Syria etc by Western forces. It again ties back into the whole politicisation thing - whereas British Christians will largely see them as British as a nationality and Christian as a (private) religion, some Muslims will see themselves as Muslims first and foremost. That combined with bad personality traits, poor environments and probably forms of radicalisation lead them eventually to terrorism - had they been born white with the exact same character the worse they'd probably get up to is robberies or hooliganism.

What can you do? Thankfully it's only a select few it affects, but I've long though a form of reform in Islam to strip out the political bits would be useful. It would strip out the long-form educational process of radicalisation that eventually trickles down into terrorism. The best bits about religion are usually personal and for the community - not for building global states. But I don't know if anyone really has the appetite for dealing with that process and the backlash they'd receive for trying to so.
thank you for your perspective and it is a good one. I have listed to people talk about the political side of religion before and how it makes things different.

I doubt she (Shamima) joined Isis to kill people. I genuinely think it was to find a husband. She pretty much said in the interview as one of the things she is thankful for was that she met her husband and started a family. she is probably a bit of a nutjob since she was aware of the atrocities and was non-phased of the sight of a head in a bin. She is clearly a sociopath.

I was speaking with one of my close friends who is of Kashmiri origin and Muslim and she doesn't buy the "we did it out of retaliation" excuse, simply because Isis were engaged in a bloody war with other Muslim groups/rebels in Syria and committed all kinds of crimes against them and continue bombing Muslim countries and Muslim people. These people are clearly delusional/warped
 

sun_tzu

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She doesn't have any children still alive. She's had three children while she's been abroad and they've all died out there, poor kids.

Much as we might like to abandon her, the UK needs to bring her back, charge her and give her a fair trial. If she stays in a high-security prison for the next 30 years, so be it. I read today that apart from Bangladesh not wanting her, she could face the death penalty there - another reason why the UK needs to deal with her.
equally if there isnt any signifigant admissable evidence as it happened years ago in a warzone when she was 15 so she gets no custodial sentence and she gets refugee status in the UK then again so be it because thats the law... does not mean we should not revisit these laws but we cant go around retrospectively changing them because thats a very slippery slope
 

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When you're an enemy of the nation you're an enemy of the culture. She has not repented which means she's honest but it also means she's a psychopath and perhaps a committed one. She must be met with justice.
 

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equally if there isnt any signifigant admissable evidence as it happened years ago in a warzone when she was 15 so she gets no custodial sentence and she gets refugee status in the UK then again so be it because thats the law... does not mean we should not revisit these laws but we cant go around retrospectively changing them because thats a very slippery slope
I would imagine the charges under the Counter-Terrorism legislation would be easy to prove, insofar as she purposefully travelled abroad to join a terrorist organisation and gave support to it (was happy to marry one of the IS terrorists). She's admitted this herself and a quick search online shows a lot of other potential evidence against her which is more damning. Now, as she was under-age when she left, I don't know how that would pan out.

No-one knows exactly what led her to make the decision, was she groomed online or was she actively seeking a way to get out there? The other two girls who travelled with her haven't made it out - one is confirmed dead, one's been missing since early last year. There's no-one left alive who can confirm or contradict what's already known.

Of course laws can't be changed retrospectively, but there are secure units for young offenders and children do get charged and sentenced for serious crimes. In any case, she's now an adult, and has been under UK law for nearly 3 years. At some point she turned 18 and was still with IS out there. Her interview with the BBC was self-damning, really.
 

sun_tzu

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I would imagine the charges under the Counter-Terrorism legislation would be easy to prove, insofar as she purposefully travelled abroad to join a terrorist organisation and gave support to it (was happy to marry one of the IS terrorists). She's admitted this herself and a quick search online shows a lot of other potential evidence against her which is more damning. Now, as she was under-age when she left, I don't know how that would pan out.

No-one knows exactly what led her to make the decision, was she groomed online or was she actively seeking a way to get out there? The other two girls who travelled with her haven't made it out - one is confirmed dead, one's been missing since early last year. There's no-one left alive who can confirm or contradict what's already known.

Of course laws can't be changed retrospectively, but there are secure units for young offenders and children do get charged and sentenced for serious crimes. In any case, she's now an adult, and has been under UK law for nearly 3 years. At some point she turned 18 and was still with IS out there. Her interview with the BBC was self-damning, really.
Im not sure what is admissable
If she says there were people connected to ISIS all the time - I had to lie - my life was in danger - I think its going to be a much harder case to prove than people think (what evidence exists of actions she did and how was that evidence obtained for example if witnesses cant be cross examined) - and thats one of the reasons the UK has tried to keep her out - they know its going to very a very difficult case to try if they have to prosecute
 

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When you're an enemy of the nation you're an enemy of the culture. She has not repented which means she's honest but it also means she's a psychopath and perhaps a committed one. She must be met with justice.
I've not heard from anyone who demands she be returned to UK, as she is our citizen, who has suggested otherwise. All unanimously agree she should face a fair trial. The issues is that the state does not possess any evidence that she committed any serious crime vis a vis UK laws at the time. That poses huge issues for the foundation of British law: can laws be retrospectively changed and are suspects innocent until proven guilty.

But that's the fault of the Tory Government official for creating laws at the time, whom should be sanctioned for this heinous lack of foresight. In some ways, Javed removing her citizenship was a gaslighting attempt to exonerate the failings of this UK official.

The Tories are using Begum as a lightening rod for many British right wing grievances, and she is being disproportionally punished for any provable crimes that she has committed.
 
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oates

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Throughout our history people, usually young people, have left these shores to fight for something they believe in, usually but not always, such actions were miles away and did not directly impinge on, or threaten this country. Many returned in coffins or body-bags and never got to reflect on the error of their ways. Isis was a different thing altogether it had a murderous edge to its beliefs and was perceived at least to have little sympathy with or for its enemies.

This young women was a school girl when she left and is still only 19 now, she has borne children and has lost children and her husband, the public perception is that she seems unmoved by all that has happened to her and as far as we know, nothing is known about any crimes she herself may have participated in.
Since she lost her passport and right to enter this country she has no rights whatsoever in the UK. Anything she may be offered or subsequently be given by the State will be at the discretion of HM government.

Young people do silly things, stupid and sometimes evil things. If it is judged that this girl no longer presents a threat to the people of this country then perhaps she should be allowed to come back and at least state her case. If she does not renounce her past, to show she wants to make a new start, then imprisonment is all that she can hope for, she would need to make a public act of atonement that would leave no one in doubt of her sincerity and wish to make amends for what she did, either by supporting Isis or taking part in its activities.

There is a danger that she maybe seen as a 'Isis martyr' rather than an 'Isis stooge' in some quarters, and the Government needs to take advice on this particular aspect before any permissions are given.
Good post.
 

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She doesn't have any children still alive. She's had three children while she's been abroad and they've all died out there, poor kids.

Much as we might like to abandon her, the UK needs to bring her back, charge her and give her a fair trial. If she stays in a high-security prison for the next 30 years, so be it. I read today that apart from Bangladesh not wanting her, she could face the death penalty there - another reason why the UK needs to deal with her.
30 years? More like 3 with good behaviour due to our ridiculous laws.
 

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She is a criminal, but surely she is a British criminal and should be treated accordingly.

I wonder, if she was white British woman, would people be denying she was a UK citizen?

Can we denounce murderers and rapists too? Maybe they gave up their right to be British.

Meanwhile, all the media coverage on this particular case gives the Britain First sympathisers another reason to get angry at brown people.
 

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She is a criminal, but surely she is a British criminal and should be treated accordingly.

I wonder, if she was white British woman, would people be denying she was a UK citizen?

Can we denounce murderers and rapists too? Maybe they gave up their right to be British.

Meanwhile, all the media coverage on this particular case gives the Britain First sympathisers another reason to get angry at brown people.
So should brown criminals never get coverage in case it riles that tiny minority of people in Britain First :confused:
 

Garethw

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Hopefully someone puts a bullet in the back of her head.
 

Garethw

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She is a criminal, but surely she is a British criminal and should be treated accordingly.

I wonder, if she was white British woman, would people be denying she was a UK citizen?

Can we denounce murderers and rapists too? Maybe they gave up their right to be British.

Meanwhile, all the media coverage on this particular case gives the Britain First sympathisers another reason to get angry at brown people.
Skin colour has absolutely nothing to do with this. Not everything is about fecking race.

If she was white I’d be saying exactly the same thing. She is an enemy of the state. She gave up her rights when she joined ISIS and decided to fight against this country.

I’ve seen Plenty of examples of white Brits converting to Islam and then joining ISIS too. They deserve a bullet to the back of the head as well.
 

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Whats the max sentence she'd be looking at for a crime committed at 15? She was not an adult yet so I'm curious to see how it's looked at.
 

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Skin colour has absolutely nothing to do with this. Not everything is about fecking race.

If she was white I’d be saying exactly the same thing. She is an enemy of the state. She gave up her rights when she joined ISIS and decided to fight against this country.

I’ve seen Plenty of examples of white Brits converting to Islam and then joining ISIS too. They deserve a bullet to the back of the head as well.
I bet youre the type to say islam is barbaric because of the apostasy law in islam.

But shooting enemies of states in the back of their head with a bullet is completely fine.


Bring yourself to 2020, mate.
 

Synco

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Skin colour has absolutely nothing to do with this. Not everything is about fecking race.

If she was white I’d be saying exactly the same thing. She is an enemy of the state. She gave up her rights when she joined ISIS and decided to fight against this country.

I’ve seen Plenty of examples of white Brits converting to Islam and then joining ISIS too. They deserve a bullet to the back of the head as well.
That's one of the uglier posts I've seen on the Caf.
 

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Begum was groomed and radicalised as a fifteen year old child. This happened in the UK, in our buildings, on our watch. We should demonstrate the decency of owning that problem and accepting her back. With that comes the right to press relevant charges and allow for justice to prevail. There are difficult lessons to be learned from this; allowing her to die in another country is, perhaps, easy. It’s also wrong.
 

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The stripping of her (only) citizenship always looked dubious and I expect she will win this case. To get something positive out of this mess (and assuming she is genuinely de-radicalised and repentant rather than being told what to say by her lawyer), they should give her a relatively light sentence on the basis she undergoes a thorough re-education herself and also devotes time to helping other young British muslims in avoiding these siren calls. In one sense I have utter contempt for her but, as a society, we have to distinguish ourselves from vengeful, ill-educated, hate-filled mob she used to follow by offering a chance at a controlled shot at redemption. You can’t completely write someone off for their actions at the age of 15.
 

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I bet youre the type to say islam is barbaric because of the apostasy law in islam.

But shooting enemies of states in the back of their head with a bullet is completely fine.


Bring yourself to 2020, mate.
I’d rather see them have a bullet to the head than read about how they’ve blown up multiple innocent people in the future that was the point I was (badly) trying to make.

If I had any faith in the UK judicial system I’d say stick her in prison for the rest of her life. But we all Know that in reality she’d be out in just a few years.
 

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That's one of the uglier posts I've seen on the Caf.
Why because I value innocent life over psychopaths?

My post did come across a little extreme so I apologise, but situations like this just make me so bloody angry.

People like her are too far gone mate. They have the ISIS mentality Ingrained into them. They’d happily kill every single one of us on this forum without batting an eyelid.

If you don’t lock people like that up Indefinitely and completely away from others, then they will start radicalising others, or if they are out of prison they will probably be involved in a terrorist attack.


I don’t want her or anyone like her back in this country. She’s made her bed and now its time for her to lie in it.
 

Synco

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Why because I value innocent life over psychopaths?
The whole enemy of the state => execution thing. Shooting non-combatants/captured enemies in the head was among the many things that made ISIS so barbaric.

Edit: Plus other stuff, but not inclined to discuss anything beyond that point.
 
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She was a kid when she went out there. Some people are stupid and easily led, she may be one of those people. She deserves a fair trial, unless you're advocating adopting IS tactics?
There's obviously no faith in the judicial system when it comes to cases like this. The stakes are very high too. People are afraid. What if the judicial system fails and she gets out in a few years? Would you like it if she moved in nextdoors? On the other hand, what if a government locks someone up for life without fair trial? Difficult situation to say the least.
 

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She was a kid when she went out there. Some people are stupid and easily led, she may be one of those people. She deserves a fair trial, unless you're advocating adopting IS tactics?
The shoot them in the head comment was stupid and I apologise. Situations like this anger me so much and I shouldn’t have said that.

But I do strongly believe that people like her are a lost cause. It’s rumoured that she was part of The IS murder Squads, helped sew bombs into suicide vests and generally has shown zero remorse Or emotion when talking about being present during beheadings.

For me, as soon as you turn your back on your country and commit treason your rights should go out the window. She doesn’t deserve anything imo.

The UK judicial system is a joke. Even if she’s found guilty they’ll only lock her up for a few years and that frightens The life out of me.

Maybe she is reformed. But would you want to take that chance? I know I wouldn’t.
 

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Remember when we were arming the groups that went onto become ISIS? That went well, but anyway,

She should be allowed back, taken to trial, and when found guilty, serve the sentence given. She was groomed at 15

Taking away her citizenship was a silly move...John Worboys is still British, correct?
 

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This thread is starting to show why trials with a public jury aren't a great idea.
 

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The shoot them in the head comment was stupid and I apologise. Situations like this anger me so much and I shouldn’t have said that.

But I do strongly believe that people like her are a lost cause. It’s rumoured that she was part of The IS murder Squads, helped sew bombs into suicide vests and generally has shown zero remorse Or emotion when talking about being present during beheadings.

For me, as soon as you turn your back on your country and commit treason your rights should go out the window. She doesn’t deserve anything imo.

The UK judicial system is a joke. Even if she’s found guilty they’ll only lock her up for a few years and that frightens The life out of me.

Maybe she is reformed. But would you want to take that chance? I know I wouldn’t.
all you say may be true ... so please explain why Syria or Bangladesh should have to own the problem, when it was one of Britains making.
 
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The Boy

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not my words, but I saw this on FB and it made me think.

“It cannot be overemphasised how screwed up it is that everyone knows Shamima Begum's name, but not the name of Yago Riedijk, the white adult male who groomed and married her when she was just 15.

Something to think about...“
 

finneh

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The one thing I don't understand is that if she's so dangerous, then surely she's equally (probably more) dangerous outside of the UK as she would be here?

If that's the case then surely anyone who thinks she should not be allowed back as she's so dangerous would also be concerned about the threat she must pose to the people who're living in close proximity to her now?

Following this logic and assuming that a dangerous person is far more likely to be purged of their extremist views or at least muzzled of them in a country with billions devoted to a righteous judicial system, an equitable penal system and a fair parole system... I can only have one question...

Are the lives of those who regrettably are in her company at the moment worth less than our neighbours in the UK?
 

hobbers

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Are the lives of those who regrettably are in her company at the moment worth less than our neighbours in the UK?
As far as the UK government is concerned... yes, obviously. Their priority should always be the safety of UK citizens.

Also I would say any prison sentence served in the UK will serve to strengthen underlying extremist beliefs most of the time rather than reduce them. Although with the laughable state of our judicial system I doubt she'll even get a custodial sentence anyway.

So in the end it'll be a pure gamble as to whether she is just as brain dead and gullible as she appeared in those interviews, or whether she's a properly invested ideologue who's been putting on a bit of an act and will happily blow herself up at the first opportunity.
 

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all you say may be true ... so please explain why Syria or Bangladesh should have to own the problem, when it was one of Britains making.
She shouldn’t be their problem either and that is why this is a very difficult situation.

But at least she will get the punishment she deserves in those countries, rather than a slap on the wrist and a ‘don’t do it again please’ comment that she’ll Likely get from the soft touch UK.
 

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As far as the UK government is concerned... yes, obviously. Their priority should always be the safety of UK citizens.
Also I would say any prison sentence served in the UK will serve to strengthen underlying extremist beliefs most of the time rather than reduce them. Although with the laughable state of our judicial system I doubt she'll even get a custodial sentence anyway.
So in the end it'll be a pure gamble as to whether she is just as brain dead and gullible as she appeared in those interviews, or whether she's a properly invested ideologue who's been putting on a bit of an act and will happily blow herself up at the first opportunity.
She shouldn’t be their problem either and that is why this is a very difficult situation.
But at least she will get the punishment she deserves in those countries, rather than a slap on the wrist and a ‘don’t do it again please’ comment that she’ll Likely get from the soft touch UK.
So why should another country make up for, in your opinion, UK imperfect laws leading to inability to deal with the crimes of one of its own citizens?
I don't see why this is difficult at all. Neither of you are making any sense except having an erratic rant.
 

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She shouldn’t be their problem either and that is why this is a very difficult situation.

But at least she will get the punishment she deserves in those countries, rather than a slap on the wrist and a ‘don’t do it again please’ comment that she’ll Likely get from the soft touch UK.
Well fecking said, mate! Knowing good old blighty, this monster will get behind bars a couple of wide screen tvs, unlimited supply of turkey twisters and one of those PlayStation 360 things, these days prisons are more like holiday camps. And before any of the libs on here say I'm talking bollocks........well one of my English mates was thrown in jail, yeah that's right he was literally thrown in jail just for saying his nationality. So I no what I is talking about here.

Back in the old days, we didn't stand for any this human rights nonsense. Back in the old days you constructed giant man like statue out of wicker, put the nearest funny sounding bloke at the top and set it alight. Back in the old days we didn't stand for PC culture things like citizenship and we were a better country for it!

Personally the only real justice for this Remain traitor is to have Queen Lizzy perform a traditional beheading and for the bloody homosexual Marxists at the BBC to broadcast it directly into my tax payer eyes. Give those ISIS lads a lesson in manners and shown them what a civilized society looks like.
 

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not my words, but I saw this on FB and it made me think.

“It cannot be overemphasised how screwed up it is that everyone knows Shamima Begum's name, but not the name of Yago Riedijk, the white adult male who groomed and married her when she was just 15.

Something to think about...“
That's giving the impression that she's a victim in all this. She's not.