Are you feeling ok, mate?
Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK
- Thread starter Tommy
- Start date
I look at my 18 yo daughter... and shudder. I get it, but it's fecked up... When or how does she get a second chance?
You're just making shite up to give your argument that she's some kind of victim more weight. Where did you get that she was 13 when she was "groomed"? She left the UK when she was 15 and a half and these are quotes from her below:
She claimed she was groomed for "weeks and weeks and maybe even months and months”, before leaving, adding: “It wasn't just a decision I made very quickly, it was a decision I thought about for a while.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-begum-insists-didnt-hate-britain-fled-syria/
Ah yes giving a smart arse reply, just confirming you were talking utter balls.
Worrying how many terrorist sympathisers there is in here. At least there's more people that don't buy into her BS sob story.
I mean, why should I waste my time writing when you obviously can't read?
Never go back. Just look at Ronaldo. And this has the potential to be at least as bad.
I'm a firm believer that there are some things that don't get a 2nd chance.
Watching beheading videos and then deciding to join the beheaders is one of those things. I don't care what kind of life they promised her.
So clearly you don't believe she was groomed. Do you know anything about how grooming works?
She's clearly a victim - I don't even see how that's a debate, and it's totally gross that all you big men are piling onto someone who was targeted as a vulnerable young teenager to essentially become a sex slave for a ****.
Let's keep it civil, fellas.
Look... you could make the case that 15 year olds in 1939 who joined the SS in 1942 were groomed. They still chose to join in.
At some point, right is right and wrong is wrong, and it's not that hard to tell the difference when one side is committing a genocide.
Is that the two alternatives, happy neighbour or super villain?
Sure, but you don't treat a 15 year old Hitler Youth recruit as equally culpable as Hitler for the Holocaust.
And you don't declare that that Hitler Youth recruit is no longer German.
The Nazis used to revoke the citizens of Jewish and LGBTQ people. It was part of the process of dehumanisation of people they viewed as less than human.
I see you're just glossing over your lies/ignorance from your post in which you accuse someone else of being ignorant.
The term "groomed" is being deliberately used here by sympathisers to soften what was a 15 year old deciding to join the most disgusting terrorist group of this generation after watching propaganda videos of beheadings and what not. When people hear she's been "groomed" they associate it with the child sex rings where men plied girls with booze and alcohol to gang rape them. The children in these actual cases of grooming were victims of rape, end of. They didn't sign up to be raped and they didn't like Shamima, sign up to become a member of ISIS. She's not a victim, she's just a cnut.
Well for that guy it's happy neighbour seen as though he doesn't seem to think she's in any way a villain despite video evidence of her showing otherwise.
Wow, where did you read that?
Ok, so you aren't interested at all in engaging with her as the person she is. She was a child who was targeted by people who are clearly pieces of shit when she was at oldest 14. She was taken to a part of the world where she knew no-one and made to bear 3 children, all of whom died. But your takeaway is 'she's just a cnut'.
It is so grim that you can look at a child and think that. Grooming is when adults work hard to convince impressionable children to do what they say, to manipulate them. That is exactly what happened here. And it's weird that you can't see that. It just seems incredibly hateful.
And you call me a 'sympathiser' as if it's a bad thing to have sympathy for a child who was groomed. I can only guess that you're trying to justify your own lack of sympathy for a Muslim girl to yourself.
Ah. The accusation of racism comes out
. Ta ra.Honestly don't see why else you wouldn't accept that she's been groomed.Ah. The accusation of racism comes out
I mean you haven't given any actual evidence for it. Just said that 'she's a cnut' and ignored everything I've said bar a slip.
Didn't read it anywhere.
That argument applies to anyone serving any crime. Most would rather a former criminal not to be living next door but that's the justice system.
Which was the posters point, criminals get trialled and do their time. There really shouldn't be more to it than that and wouldn't be if political will and the daily mail didn't use people's predictable anger for gain.
Well she needs life imprisonment because I can't see anybody welcoming her anywhere near their community. Plus it'll cost a fortune to keep relocating her for the rest of her life as she's easily recognisable.
It'll be like karla homolka in Canada she's got a new identity adter servung a nothing sentence but seems to get chased out of anywhere she turns up.
Pretty weird thing to claim, then.
I don't think most would have a clue what she looks like. Sure they'll be lots of big hard men trying to find her to harrass a young girl though.
I hope the irony of accusing posters of being racist in this thread isn't lost on the people who are simultaneously defending a person who went to great lengths to join a racist (...amongst other things) group.
Pretty sure little tiny women know what she looks like too. She's been in the news enough times.
I really dislike seeing her or other female ISIS recruits described like this, or as having been "trafficked". ISIS actually trafficked in literal sex-slaves, mostly Yazidi women captured during the genocide (but also random others such as (Kayla Mueller). These women were sold in slave markets, repeatedly raped by their 'masters', and often forced to share a household with women like Shamima. Many have reported being treated horribly by ISIS wives. In her early interviews Shamima spoke about her husband with considerable affection. Can we imagine a Yazidi slave doing likewise? As miserable as things have got for her, things need to be kept in perspective.
Some people are very naïve. It is odd how many people legitimately believe that a 15 year old does not know exactly what they are doing.
This reminds me of when Ashli Babbitt (the insurrectionist who was rightly shot & killed in the J6 riot) was thought to be 16 years old. So many clamored that she was too young to know better.
Bullshit. When you make decisions like these two females did, you deserve to be treated as an adult.
Bullshit. When you make decisions like these two females did, you deserve to be treated as an adult.
As I understand it the problem with Shamima is that she can't be prosecuted for any specific crime for going over. Think her using a false identify is pretty much it.
Also I understand that other people have been allowed back in other countries and including Britain. I forget the name but one girl is now working to teach kids not to get taken into the dreams sold by Isis and the like.
Shamima's citizenship is another issue. Because legally she has no Bengali citizenship. I think her grandfather came from there but her parents are born and raised here. Or at least one of them is. She's never been there and Bangladesh refuse to accept her as a citizenship.
Just as an aside I was born in Kashmir but because of the side I was born I came here on a Pakistani passport. I've been here for around 40 years+. To visit my homeland I have two options. Either pay for a visa and travel on my British passport as a British citizen or have a dual nationality by getting a Nadra card. This lasts a few years and I don't need a visa.
The thing is by having a Nadra card you can be deported for certain crimes now. Not just terrorism.
The crux for me is what the Chechnyan president said when that french guy was killed after carrying out a terror attack. A baby comes to this country (or France in that guys case) and at the age of 20 or 30 carries out an attack. Having never been back to where a person is born how can you claim that country had an influence? Surely the problem is in the country you've grown up in?
Also I understand that other people have been allowed back in other countries and including Britain. I forget the name but one girl is now working to teach kids not to get taken into the dreams sold by Isis and the like.
Shamima's citizenship is another issue. Because legally she has no Bengali citizenship. I think her grandfather came from there but her parents are born and raised here. Or at least one of them is. She's never been there and Bangladesh refuse to accept her as a citizenship.
Just as an aside I was born in Kashmir but because of the side I was born I came here on a Pakistani passport. I've been here for around 40 years+. To visit my homeland I have two options. Either pay for a visa and travel on my British passport as a British citizen or have a dual nationality by getting a Nadra card. This lasts a few years and I don't need a visa.
The thing is by having a Nadra card you can be deported for certain crimes now. Not just terrorism.
The crux for me is what the Chechnyan president said when that french guy was killed after carrying out a terror attack. A baby comes to this country (or France in that guys case) and at the age of 20 or 30 carries out an attack. Having never been back to where a person is born how can you claim that country had an influence? Surely the problem is in the country you've grown up in?
If she was that naive at 15, she wouldn't be going through the lengths to join the group. As harsh is it sounds, this cant be forgiven just for other 15 year olds to use similar excuses in the future.
I have the same stance on other crimes btw. A teenager is not a senseless child just bumping into trouble. Let's be clear, this girl didn't just post some pro Daesh propaganda on her twitter. Don't be naive.
I have the same stance on other crimes btw. A teenager is not a senseless child just bumping into trouble. Let's be clear, this girl didn't just post some pro Daesh propaganda on her twitter. Don't be naive.
1) I didn’t say treat her “equally culpable”. The ISIS soldiers should be executed. I don’t think she should.
2) No, they didn't. But they did hang and shoot a bunch of them that left Germany to join the SS in their genocide.
3) And? They still had the capacity for critical thinking... and they chose poorly.
That person isn't a victim. The people butchered by the group she joined were victims.
Why can't she be prosecuted for that? That sounds ridiculous. If I use fakeID to obtain access to documents my only crime is not just using the fakeID.
She uses her sisters passport.
She has to be bought back and stand trial for crimes she has committed. However her crimes are difficult to determine. There has to be evidence and going over and marrying who she did isn't in itself a crime. If it can't be proven that she did any crimes then she walks.
In the other thread you used psychiatry etc to try and prove a point.
Children and young people's grooming vulnerabilities is a hot topic.
They would suggest that a 15 year old is vulnerable to sexual and extremist grooming.
There are many studies of vulnerability of teenagers to certain types of grooming. Women moreso than men.
Have you read the case of Breck Bednar? He was 15 when killed. Isis or daesh was used to lure him to a flat where he was rapes and killed.
But where do you draw the line? If a 15 year old murders a family in your neighborhood can you say he was groomed by hate speech of Trump?
She should be subject to British justice if she returns but, at the moment, she can’t return and she has been put into jurisdictional limbo. She might be an utterly evil bitch (none of us know her true state of mind), but, as things stand, she’ d be treated better under the English legal system if she, as a 15 year old, had murdered a child in the UK. The case just doesn’t sit right with me. I suspect it’s a mixture of deterrence and playing to the gallery, but, for the state to completely wash its hands of a British citizen’s life at 15 feels wrong ,even if they do deserve to do a substantial period of time inside for their crimes,
Please do not compare Breck Bednar to this terrorist.
She was 20 when she said she had no regret in joining ISIL. This isn't some naive child. Her own dad is against what she has done. This is like mass murderers pleading insanity.
I don't know where to draw the line. The discussion was on grooming and comparing sexual grooming with grooming for terrorism purposes. My point was these are not as different as some are suggesting, according to certain people in certain fields of study etc.
In the Shamima case for example the issue we forget is that her and her two mates weren't the first from that school. The Met have actually apologised to her parents for not informing them about another girl falling prey to joining Isis.
Studies show groomers focus on areas where there has been success. Online being one of the worst these days. Many girls as old as 19 are lured into trafficking etc. Should they know better? Or is it something that needs tackling as it continues?
No easy answers for me