Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK

That argument applies to anyone serving any crime. Most would rather a former criminal not to be living next door but that's the justice system.

Which was the posters point, criminals get trialled and do their time. There really shouldn't be more to it than that and wouldn't be if political will and the daily mail didn't use people's predictable anger for gain.

Well she needs life imprisonment because I can't see anybody welcoming her anywhere near their community. Plus it'll cost a fortune to keep relocating her for the rest of her life as she's easily recognisable.

It'll be like karla homolka in Canada she's got a new identity adter servung a nothing sentence but seems to get chased out of anywhere she turns up.
 
Well she needs life imprisonment because I can't see anybody welcoming her anywhere near their community. Plus it'll cost a fortune to keep relocating her for the rest of her life as she's easily recognisable.

It'll be like karla homolka in Canada she's got a new identity adter servung a nothing sentence but seems to get chased out of anywhere she turns up.

I don't think most would have a clue what she looks like. Sure they'll be lots of big hard men trying to find her to harrass a young girl though.
 
I hope the irony of accusing posters of being racist in this thread isn't lost on the people who are simultaneously defending a person who went to great lengths to join a racist (...amongst other things) group.
 
I don't think most would have a clue what she looks like. Sure they'll be lots of big hard men trying to find her to harrass a young girl though.


Pretty sure little tiny women know what she looks like too. She's been in the news enough times.
 
She's clearly a victim - I don't even see how that's a debate, and it's totally gross that all you big men are piling onto someone who was targeted as a vulnerable young teenager to essentially become a sex slave for a cult.

I really dislike seeing her or other female ISIS recruits described like this, or as having been "trafficked". ISIS actually trafficked in literal sex-slaves, mostly Yazidi women captured during the genocide (but also random others such as (Kayla Mueller). These women were sold in slave markets, repeatedly raped by their 'masters', and often forced to share a household with women like Shamima. Many have reported being treated horribly by ISIS wives. In her early interviews Shamima spoke about her husband with considerable affection. Can we imagine a Yazidi slave doing likewise? As miserable as things have got for her, things need to be kept in perspective.
 
Some people are very naïve. It is odd how many people legitimately believe that a 15 year old does not know exactly what they are doing.
 
This reminds me of when Ashli Babbitt (the insurrectionist who was rightly shot & killed in the J6 riot) was thought to be 16 years old. So many clamored that she was too young to know better.

Bullshit. When you make decisions like these two females did, you deserve to be treated as an adult.
 
As I understand it the problem with Shamima is that she can't be prosecuted for any specific crime for going over. Think her using a false identify is pretty much it.

Also I understand that other people have been allowed back in other countries and including Britain. I forget the name but one girl is now working to teach kids not to get taken into the dreams sold by Isis and the like.

Shamima's citizenship is another issue. Because legally she has no Bengali citizenship. I think her grandfather came from there but her parents are born and raised here. Or at least one of them is. She's never been there and Bangladesh refuse to accept her as a citizenship.

Just as an aside I was born in Kashmir but because of the side I was born I came here on a Pakistani passport. I've been here for around 40 years+. To visit my homeland I have two options. Either pay for a visa and travel on my British passport as a British citizen or have a dual nationality by getting a Nadra card. This lasts a few years and I don't need a visa.

The thing is by having a Nadra card you can be deported for certain crimes now. Not just terrorism.

The crux for me is what the Chechnyan president said when that french guy was killed after carrying out a terror attack. A baby comes to this country (or France in that guys case) and at the age of 20 or 30 carries out an attack. Having never been back to where a person is born how can you claim that country had an influence? Surely the problem is in the country you've grown up in?
 
If she was that naive at 15, she wouldn't be going through the lengths to join the group. As harsh is it sounds, this cant be forgiven just for other 15 year olds to use similar excuses in the future.

I have the same stance on other crimes btw. A teenager is not a senseless child just bumping into trouble. Let's be clear, this girl didn't just post some pro Daesh propaganda on her twitter. Don't be naive.
 
Sure, but you don't treat a 15 year old Hitler Youth recruit as equally culpable as Hitler for the Holocaust.

And you don't declare that that Hitler Youth recruit is no longer German.

The Nazis used to revoke the citizens of Jewish and LGBTQ people. It was part of the process of dehumanisation of people they viewed as less than human.
1) I didn’t say treat her “equally culpable”. The ISIS soldiers should be executed. I don’t think she should.

2) No, they didn't. But they did hang and shoot a bunch of them that left Germany to join the SS in their genocide.

3) And? They still had the capacity for critical thinking... and they chose poorly.
engaging with her as the person she is
That person isn't a victim. The people butchered by the group she joined were victims.
 
Some people are very naïve. It is odd how many people legitimately believe that a 15 year old does not know exactly what they are doing.
This reminds me of when Ashli Babbitt (the insurrectionist who was rightly shot & killed in the J6 riot) was thought to be 16 years old. So many clamored that she was too young to know better.

Bullshit. When you make decisions like these two females did, you deserve to be treated as an adult.
If she was that naive at 15, she wouldn't be going through the lengths to join the group. As harsh is it sounds, this cant be forgiven just for other 15 year olds to use similar excuses in the future.

I have the same stance on other crimes btw. A teenager is not a senseless child just bumping into trouble. Let's be clear, this girl didn't just post some pro Daesh propaganda on her twitter. Don't be naive.
Exactly.
 
As I understand it the problem with Shamima is that she can't be prosecuted for any specific crime for going over. Think her using a false identify is pretty much it.

Also I understand that other people have been allowed back in other countries and including Britain. I forget the name but one girl is now working to teach kids not to get taken into the dreams sold by Isis and the like.

Shamima's citizenship is another issue. Because legally she has no Bengali citizenship. I think her grandfather came from there but her parents are born and raised here. Or at least one of them is. She's never been there and Bangladesh refuse to accept her as a citizenship.

Just as an aside I was born in Kashmir but because of the side I was born I came here on a Pakistani passport. I've been here for around 40 years+. To visit my homeland I have two options. Either pay for a visa and travel on my British passport as a British citizen or have a dual nationality by getting a Nadra card. This lasts a few years and I don't need a visa.

The thing is by having a Nadra card you can be deported for certain crimes now. Not just terrorism.

The crux for me is what the Chechnyan president said when that french guy was killed after carrying out a terror attack. A baby comes to this country (or France in that guys case) and at the age of 20 or 30 carries out an attack. Having never been back to where a person is born how can you claim that country had an influence? Surely the problem is in the country you've grown up in?

Why can't she be prosecuted for that? That sounds ridiculous. If I use fakeID to obtain access to documents my only crime is not just using the fakeID.
 
Why can't she be prosecuted for that? That sounds ridiculous. If I use fakeID to obtain access to documents my only crime is not just using the fakeID.


She uses her sisters passport.

She has to be bought back and stand trial for crimes she has committed. However her crimes are difficult to determine. There has to be evidence and going over and marrying who she did isn't in itself a crime. If it can't be proven that she did any crimes then she walks.
 

In the other thread you used psychiatry etc to try and prove a point.

Children and young people's grooming vulnerabilities is a hot topic.

They would suggest that a 15 year old is vulnerable to sexual and extremist grooming.
 
If she was that naive at 15, she wouldn't be going through the lengths to join the group. As harsh is it sounds, this cant be forgiven just for other 15 year olds to use similar excuses in the future.

I have the same stance on other crimes btw. A teenager is not a senseless child just bumping into trouble. Let's be clear, this girl didn't just post some pro Daesh propaganda on her twitter. Don't be naive.

There are many studies of vulnerability of teenagers to certain types of grooming. Women moreso than men.

Have you read the case of Breck Bednar? He was 15 when killed. Isis or daesh was used to lure him to a flat where he was rapes and killed.
 
In the other thread you used psychiatry etc to try and prove a point.

Children and young people's grooming vulnerabilities is a hot topic.

They would suggest that a 15 year old is vulnerable to sexual and extremist grooming.

But where do you draw the line? If a 15 year old murders a family in your neighborhood can you say he was groomed by hate speech of Trump?
 

She should be subject to British justice if she returns but, at the moment, she can’t return and she has been put into jurisdictional limbo. She might be an utterly evil bitch (none of us know her true state of mind), but, as things stand, she’ d be treated better under the English legal system if she, as a 15 year old, had murdered a child in the UK. The case just doesn’t sit right with me. I suspect it’s a mixture of deterrence and playing to the gallery, but, for the state to completely wash its hands of a British citizen’s life at 15 feels wrong ,even if they do deserve to do a substantial period of time inside for their crimes,
 
There are many studies of vulnerability of teenagers to certain types of grooming. Women moreso than men.

Have you read the case of Breck Bednar? He was 15 when killed. Isis or daesh was used to lure him to a flat where he was rapes and killed.

Please do not compare Breck Bednar to this terrorist.

She was 20 when she said she had no regret in joining ISIL. This isn't some naive child. Her own dad is against what she has done. This is like mass murderers pleading insanity.
 
But where do you draw the line? If a 15 year old murders a family in your neighborhood can you say he was groomed by hate speech of Trump?

I don't know where to draw the line. The discussion was on grooming and comparing sexual grooming with grooming for terrorism purposes. My point was these are not as different as some are suggesting, according to certain people in certain fields of study etc.

In the Shamima case for example the issue we forget is that her and her two mates weren't the first from that school. The Met have actually apologised to her parents for not informing them about another girl falling prey to joining Isis.

Studies show groomers focus on areas where there has been success. Online being one of the worst these days. Many girls as old as 19 are lured into trafficking etc. Should they know better? Or is it something that needs tackling as it continues?

No easy answers for me
 
Please do not compare Breck Bednar to this terrorist.

She was 20 when she said she had no regret in joining ISIL. This isn't some naive child. Her own dad is against what she has done. This is like mass murderers pleading insanity.

The only comparison was age and use of isil/daesh.

Just don't think it's as simple as at 14/15 you should know better
 
I don't know where to draw the line. The discussion was on grooming and comparing sexual grooming with grooming for terrorism purposes. My point was these are not as different as some are suggesting, according to certain people in certain fields of study etc.

In the Shamima case for example the issue we forget is that her and her two mates weren't the first from that school. The Met have actually apologised to her parents for not informing them about another girl falling prey to joining Isis.

Studies show groomers focus on areas where there has been success. Online being one of the worst these days. Many girls as old as 19 are lured into trafficking etc. Should they know better? Or is it something that needs tackling as it continues?

No easy answers for me

Yes there is.

If sexual grooming involved grooming a girl to commit crimes, then they would be responsible for crimes as well. Doesn't really happen.

Also, even in the case you were groomed by some 30 year old Pedo you can't just murder him and go "but I was groomed!".
 
The only comparison was age and use of isil/daesh.

Just don't think it's as simple as at 14/15 you should know better

I don't buy that.

Unless there is some proof that her life was threatened to join ISIL, she should know better. She claimed one of the reasons she joined was watching videos of beheadings. We were all 14 at some point and not getting off to beheadings.
 
In the other thread you used psychiatry etc to try and prove a point.

Children and young people's grooming vulnerabilities is a hot topic.

They would suggest that a 15 year old is vulnerable to sexual and extremist grooming.
She watched videos of ISIS beheading people and said “yeah that looks like a fun place to live” and went there to get married and live with one of the soldiers of the group doing the beheading.

Stop talking about her like she’s a victim. She isn’t.
 
She watched videos of ISIS beheading people and said “yeah that looks like a fun place to live” and went there to get married and live with one of the soldiers of the group doing the beheading.

Stop talking about her like she’s a victim. She isn’t.

So no psychiatry or psychology reports are valid now?

Only if it suits your argument? Got it
 
They're not leaving the country for us to keep them out.

I'd love it if they did.
Maybe not teens but I'm pretty sure there's American neo-nazis fighting in Ukraine. Would you want their citizenship to be revoked?
 
Who the feck watches beheadings videos and thinks "yeah that's fine". Is she mentally ill?
 
I don't buy that.

Unless there is some proof that her life was threatened to join ISIL, she should know better. She claimed one of the reasons she joined was watching videos of beheadings. We were all 14 at some point and not getting off to beheadings.


There's a book called Contemporary perspective on child psychology and education iirc. Has a chapter dedicated to sexual and extremist grooming. Used the 3 girls from bethnal green as a case study and Breck.

Interesting read even if you don't agree
 
Who the feck watches beheadings videos and thinks "yeah that's fine". Is she mentally ill?

Has she actually said this?

I know some papers reported it as being said in her interview she did when found in that camp.

She never said she had watched beheadings. The reporter asked the question and she said she had heard but was sold the family life etc.

Not excusing or justifying just curious as to what was said by her
 
Has she actually said this?

I know some papers reported it as being said in her interview she did when found in that camp.

She never said she had watched beheadings. The reporter asked the question and she said she had heard but was sold the family life etc.

Not excusing or justifying just curious as to what was said by her
I don't know, I'm going off these 2 posts:


I don't buy that.

Unless there is some proof that her life was threatened to join ISIL, she should know better. She claimed one of the reasons she joined was watching videos of beheadings. We were all 14 at some point and not getting off to beheadings.
She watched videos of ISIS beheading people and said “yeah that looks like a fun place to live” and went there to get married and live with one of the soldiers of the group doing the beheading.

Stop talking about her like she’s a victim. She isn’t.
 
Maybe not teens but I'm pretty sure there's American neo-nazis fighting in Ukraine. Would you want their citizenship to be revoked?
Considering my go to thought for Nazis is “feck em”, no, I wouldn’t mind. I also wouldn’t mind it if the same Neo-Nazis ended up at Gitmo after losing said citizenship.
 
There's a book called Contemporary perspective on child psychology and education iirc. Has a chapter dedicated to sexual and extremist grooming. Used the 3 girls from bethnal green as a case study and Breck.

Interesting read even if you don't agree

Here it is - https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/57686

It really doesn't say much about the three girls unfortunately.
 
Good deal bud. Glad you got it. What am I supposed to be getting from your posts other than excuses for a terrorist lover?

Just wondering why you don't apply the same standards/arguments in all your discussions.

Have a read of the book I suggested to shamans. I think I got the title right. Interesting read
 
Here it is - https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/57686

It really doesn't say much about the three girls unfortunately.

In the abstract.. table 2 downward


Edit: this is in the opening "It will draw on contemporary case examples to illustrate grooming drawn from UK Serious Case Reviews (SCR) on CSE and, on radicalisation, the case of the three girls from Bethnal Green who were groomed for travel to Syria. It will then reflect on the push and pull factors of grooming to highlight the similarities between CSE and radicalisation."

CSE being child sexual exploitation
 
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That's an abstract.. table 2 downward

Yes, I've read it. There is one small section on the girls that doesn't really tell anything that isn't widely known already.
 
Just wondering why you don't apply the same standards/arguments in all your discussions.

Have a read of the book I suggested to shamans. I think I got the title right. Interesting read
Just to be clear…

You’re mad because I quoted the DSM-V definition of schizophrenia diagnosis and applied it to a certain individual, and since you’re mad about that implication, you’re comparing that to judging a 15 year old who watched videos on the internet and then went to marry and live with an ISIS member.
 
Link?

I just listened to her interview on YouTube
Ms Begum said she made the choice to go to Syria and could make her own decisions, despite being only 15 at the time. She said she was partly inspired by videos of fighters beheading hostages and also by videos showing "the good life" under IS.

She watched videos of the murders of British hostages, she told the BBC, but said she did not know the names of any of the victims.
Our correspondent said that "throughout the interview, Shamima Begum continued to espouse Islamic State philosophy." He added: "When I asked her about the enslavement, murder and rape of Yazidi women by IS, she said 'Shia do the same in Iraq'."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47276572