The only comparison was age and use of isil/daesh.
Just don't think it's as simple as at 14/15 you should know better
Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK
- Thread starter Tommy
- Start date
Just don't think it's as simple as at 14/15 you should know better
Yes there is.
If sexual grooming involved grooming a girl to commit crimes, then they would be responsible for crimes as well. Doesn't really happen.
Also, even in the case you were groomed by some 30 year old Pedo you can't just murder him and go "but I was groomed!".
I don't buy that.
Unless there is some proof that her life was threatened to join ISIL, she should know better. She claimed one of the reasons she joined was watching videos of beheadings. We were all 14 at some point and not getting off to beheadings.
She watched videos of ISIS beheading people and said “yeah that looks like a fun place to live” and went there to get married and live with one of the soldiers of the group doing the beheading.
Stop talking about her like she’s a victim. She isn’t.
So no psychiatry or psychology reports are valid now?
Only if it suits your argument? Got it
Maybe not teens but I'm pretty sure there's American neo-nazis fighting in Ukraine. Would you want their citizenship to be revoked?
Who the feck watches beheadings videos and thinks "yeah that's fine". Is she mentally ill?
There's a book called Contemporary perspective on child psychology and education iirc. Has a chapter dedicated to sexual and extremist grooming. Used the 3 girls from bethnal green as a case study and Breck.
Interesting read even if you don't agree
Has she actually said this?
I know some papers reported it as being said in her interview she did when found in that camp.
She never said she had watched beheadings. The reporter asked the question and she said she had heard but was sold the family life etc.
Not excusing or justifying just curious as to what was said by her
Good deal bud. Glad you got it. What am I supposed to be getting from your posts other than excuses for a terrorist lover?
Considering my go to thought for Nazis is “feck em”, no, I wouldn’t mind. I also wouldn’t mind it if the same Neo-Nazis ended up at Gitmo after losing said citizenship.
Here it is - https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/57686
It really doesn't say much about the three girls unfortunately.
Yes. The BBC reported on it in 2019.
Just wondering why you don't apply the same standards/arguments in all your discussions.
Have a read of the book I suggested to shamans. I think I got the title right. Interesting read
In the abstract.. table 2 downward
Edit: this is in the opening "It will draw on contemporary case examples to illustrate grooming drawn from UK Serious Case Reviews (SCR) on CSE and, on radicalisation, the case of the three girls from Bethnal Green who were groomed for travel to Syria. It will then reflect on the push and pull factors of grooming to highlight the similarities between CSE and radicalisation."
CSE being child sexual exploitation
Last edited:
Yes, I've read it. There is one small section on the girls that doesn't really tell anything that isn't widely known already.
Just to be clear…
You’re mad because I quoted the DSM-V definition of schizophrenia diagnosis and applied it to a certain individual, and since you’re mad about that implication, you’re comparing that to judging a 15 year old who watched videos on the internet and then went to marry and live with an ISIS member.
Ms Begum said she made the choice to go to Syria and could make her own decisions, despite being only 15 at the time. She said she was partly inspired by videos of fighters beheading hostages and also by videos showing "the good life" under IS.
She watched videos of the murders of British hostages, she told the BBC, but said she did not know the names of any of the victims.
Our correspondent said that "throughout the interview, Shamima Begum continued to espouse Islamic State philosophy." He added: "When I asked her about the enslavement, murder and rape of Yazidi women by IS, she said 'Shia do the same in Iraq'."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47276572
I edited the above response
Not mad at all. Just curious why you wouldn't apply the same principles here. Choosing to dismiss it, or sonit appears.
The WHO and NSPCC also speak of mental health of teenagers and naivity to grooming for gangs, sexual exploitation and extremism.
Sorry if that seems like anger/being mad to you
OK but that doesn't change the fact the section on the girls is very sparse. Also...
The chapter makes a distinction between child sexual exploitation (CSE) and 'radicalisation', and discusses the girls in the context of the latter category rather than the former:
"It has also been recently argued that the way harm manifests in radicalisation can be quite different to CSE. Young people targeted do not have to be ‘vulnerable’ in the CSE sense (for example being in care) they can be well educated and well cared for as in the case of the three Bethnal Green girls."
Choosing is the key word.
You don’t choose schizophrenia. You are a victim of it.
Begum made a choice to talk to ISIS online. She made a choice to watch the propaganda videos. She made a choice to leave her home and family. She made a choice to travel a continent away. She made a choice to get herself smuggled into Syria. She made a choice to marry and have kids with a soldier of a genocidal death ****.
At what point do you realize that if she’s a victim of anything, it is of her own abject stupidity?
It puts forward that as an argument however other quotes from the article show the similarities and how it's categorised as grooming.
In the UK Ofsted, the Office for Standards in Education, Children’s Services and Skills...require organisations to teach children and young people about being groomed: ‘…how to keep themselves safe from relevant risks such as abuse, sexual exploitation and extremism, including when using the internet and social media’
‘In order for schools and childcare providers to fulfil the Prevent duty, it is essential that staff are able to identify children who may be vulnerable to radicalisation, and know what to do when they are identified. Protecting children from the risk of radicalisation should be seen as part of schools’ and childcare providers’ wider safeguarding duties, and is similar in nature to protecting children from other harms (e.g. drugs, gangs, neglect, sexual exploitation), whether these come from within their family or are the product of outside influences’
Shamima wasn't the first overall or from that school. Tareena Shakil for example has a similar story. Back in the UK these days.
Each woman, and many men, who have returned have similar stories to tell. Is it really out there to suggest there maybe an element of grooming, similar to CSE?
Was everything as much of a choice once groomed into going? Could she say different being where she was, surrounded by who she is?
For what it's worth I know her lawyer. Not because of her incidentally. I have known Tasnime for a number of years. He used to lecture/speak at conventions/meetings and I worked in the community safety field. His particular "expertise" was in changing of laws for terrorism. He was asked at a talk he did in Derby about the lack of shamima's remorse. He simply said that her life would be at risk if she vehemently opposed Isis. Maybe he was protecting his client maybe he was telling the truth, truth is I don't know but it made sense.
Also a victim of their own abject stupidity.
It is not a defense for going a continent away to join a fecking genocidal death ****. Just like being 15 isn’t a defense to it either.
Yeah, ISIS has a reputation for killing everyone in their path. Someone shoulda told her
I'll just post the figure in section 3 which presents the differences and similarities between CSE and radicalisation:
Getting back to the girls, pretty much the only bit of actual analysis of their case in the chapter is this: "The online recruiters are prolific and online grooming played a role with the Bethnal Green girls. However the group psychology of this close-knit friendship was also crucial."
I think we need a lot more information than is presented in this paper in order to determine the collection of factors that drove the three of them to leave.
Would you say the say for the Rotherham girls who were sexually exploited? The first ones were groomed without knowing what they were being lead into. The later ones knew what had happened/was happening to their mates but were still groomed.Also a victim of their own abject stupidity.
It is not a defense for going a continent away to join a fecking death ****. Just like being 15 isn’t a defense to it either.
Yeah, ISIS has a reputation for killing everyone in their path. Someone shoulda told her
Some left their parents house on an evening and spent 2/3 days away being used and abused.
Nothing is simple. Many factors to weigh. Easy to say it was abject stupidity. Home life, friends, vulnerability etc play a factor.
Trafficking is well known/spoken off. In countries which are targeted there are programmes/initiatives to warn going women about the dangers of falling victim to traffickers. Yet the numbers are not dwindling.
Refugees with families see the horrors of sea crossing etc but yet do it anyway. Brown people with babies and going kids.
Hard to take in but happens nonetheless.
This girl/want needs to be tried in a court of law here. Punished accordingly but able to tell her story. Maybe more to it than we know?
Quit comparing this to people who are groomed for sex. This isn’t someone who was only groomed for sex. Begum and those like her went and knowingly joined an internationally notorious terrorist group who was engaged in a genocide and decided to feck the soldiers committing said genocide.
It is not the same.
Its the equivalent of making excuses for people leaving the United States to go feck Nazis in 1945 because they sent them love letters and pictures of Treblinka.
Lot of similarities in the grooming factors on that table. The purpose of the table is to show that grooming techniques can occur simultaneously rather than the linear process argumentI'll just post the figure in section 3 which presents the differences and similarities between CSE and radicalisation:
Getting back to the girls, pretty much the only bit of actual analysis of their case in the chapter is this: "The online recruiters are prolific and online grooming played a role with the Bethnal Green girls. However the group psychology of this close-knit friendship was also crucial."
I think we need a lot more information than is presented in this paper in order to determine the collection of factors that drove the three of them to leave.
I agree with your last paragraph. One thing that is available is that the school was itself a target. Parents hasn't been informed about another girl who had left and told to be vigilant.
We currently have a school in our locality that was under scrutiny for sexual grooming. Social services and police etc has a close eye on it for almost 3 years. Some of the groomers were not locals but focussed on this school.
It's a high school/academy and it's not clear why this one. There are other schools within a certain radius but no issues.
She kind of was groomed for sex. Again see other stories from other girls. The moment they arrive they are "married" off. Of the guy gets killed they marry another. Babies are born with regularity etc.
The emphasis on meeting guys to marry and family life, in context of communities which may have pressures on arranged marriage, not helping matters, may seem as appealing to a 15 year old as free drink and presents would to any teenager.
As for your Germany example. I'm sure there is a conversation with Rachel Johnson (Boris sister) about British women sent to Nazi Germany. I may have the wrong gist but she said something about someone saying Hitler went too far bit was a nice bloke
I know they had sex with them. They had kids with them. Making more little ISIS soldiers for them. But they did that already fully knowing that the people they were joining were genocidal terrorists. Hence the difference between someone duped by a sex groomer and these individuals. These individuals knew full well who they were running off to join.
Yeah, that totally excuses the genocide that they knew about.
I’ve no clue about that. My point was that it is a stupid thing to make excuses for.
You call it excuses I call it trying to make sense of something. For me it's akin to women marrying a lifer to give a different example.
You may wish to ignore the similarities but there are some nonetheless. Targeting of particular places and places. Targeting of certain age groups. I gave the example of Rotherham victims who had seen what their friends had endured but undergoing the same atrocities. Similarly trafficking or channel crossings on dinghies etc. They also "fully knew" the consequences.
Do we say that totally excuses the atrocities they knew about?
If you know they had sex with them and that was their primary role how is it not CSE?
I can make sense of it for you really quickly… she’s a shitty person who thought getting “doted on” by a genocide perpetrator sounded nice.
As to the question about CSE, I believe that @2cents has already answered that.
According to Shamima, she applied for a marriage as soon as she arrived in Syria. She also stated that one of the reasons she did not regret her decision to go to Syria was because “I married my husband. I wouldn't have found someone like him back in the UK.”
For his part, her husband stated:
He has also said that “There were some nice days with my wife and kids at home. Some beautiful memories.”
For his part, her husband stated:
“To be honest, when my friend came and said there was a girl who was interested in marriage, I wasn’t that interested because of her age, but I accepted the offer anyway.
We sat down and she seemed in a good state of mind. It was her own choice; she was the one who asked to look for a partner for her.
Then I was invited and, yeah, she was very young and it might have been better for her to wait a bit, but she didn’t – she chose to get married and I chose to marry her.”
He has also said that “There were some nice days with my wife and kids at home. Some beautiful memories.”
She was clearly groomed. Normal 15 year old girls do not aspire to moving to Syria and joining a fecking terrorist organisation. She was specifically targeted, and taken advantage of. Clearly. In that sense, yes, she is a victim. She’s a victim just like most criminals are in a sense a victim, a victim to their bad dna, to their shit upbringing, to poverty, to a host of scenarios which allow people to be groomed or radicalised. No one is ‘born evil’.
That doesn’t mean she shouldn’t be punished though. She should. But she should be tried in the country she was born in, not left to rot as another country’s problem and where she is never going to get a fair trial.
That doesn’t mean she shouldn’t be punished though. She should. But she should be tried in the country she was born in, not left to rot as another country’s problem and where she is never going to get a fair trial.
From your first link
After arriving in Raqqa, she stayed at a house with other newly arrived brides-to-be, she told the Times.
"I applied to marry an English-speaking fighter between 20 and 25 years old," she said.
Ten days later she married a 27-year-old Dutch man who had converted to Islam.
That reads like these girls were groomed for the "fighters" and "marriage" was a key issue.
Sounds like CSE to me
So it has a chapter about 3 girls he or she hasn't interviewed and doesn't have any first hand knowledge of. Sounds like a great psychological analysis
What a disgusting comparison. Comparing girls who were genuinely groomed, raped, manipulated and abused to girls who simply wanted to be part of an Islamic master race and massacre anyone who didn't submit to their death ****. They wanted murderous husbands and got them. That was their dream, there was no in person manipulation.