It’s on the pitch that countsHave you heard him talk much? He's very articulate and measured.
It’s on the pitch that countsHave you heard him talk much? He's very articulate and measured.
Cole had to deal alot with the unintelligent stereotype earlier in his careerHe was called the “black pudding” for a while when things weren’t going so well.
Not sure if he got the “lazy” treatment though - despite his lazy tendencies at the barcodes he was generally labelled as a “poacher” and his work rate massively improved at United. We could do with him now!
Yes, it went as far as supposed experts saying that he couldn’t score when he had time to think about the chance. Anyone who actually watched him play over a period of time (or even looked at a video of his goals) would know that it is absolute nonsense.Cole had to deal alot with the unintelligent stereotype earlier in his career
Kenwyne was my national team striker for years mate, and rest assured, he was one of the laziest players I have ever watched in my life. Both lazy and not very good. When we had home games, the chorus of groans in unison when an attack broke down because of him not making a run, a bad pass or just the wrong decision, is a level of unity that we don’t see very oftenI mentioned earlier but Kenwyne Jones used to get called lazy a hell of a lot.
But then, that quite clearly had nothing to do with race. I watched the man play live multiple times and I've never seen a player move about less.
I remember him scoring some nice headers, but other than that mostly being just a really terrible striker. If you're good in the air though you can carve out a pretty decent career in the English leagues, so..Kenwyne was my national team striker for years mate, and rest assured, he was one of the laziest players I have ever watched in my life. Both lazy and not very good. When we had home games, the chorus of groans in unison when an attack broke down because of him not making a run, a bad pass or just the wrong decision, is a level of unity that we don’t see very often
I think you’re making a strange leap of logic there, as if racists should be logical with their racists ideas so they don’t contradict each other or something. Racism is by definition illogical. So its possible that two contradicting racist stereotypes can exist at the same time.So first we had the “black players are athletes” stereotype and now we have the “black players are lazy” stereotype. So which one is it? Because they seem to be polar opposites of each other. Racism exists but it can’t all be a one way street for the rest of time. This argument of people being patronisingly told that they are “subconsciously” rasict even if they don’t mean to be is a sad result of modern day “victim culture”. Many players throughout our history have been accused of being lazy, out of shape, not intelligent on the pitch, not intelligent off the pitch without it being about racism. However calling lukaku a gorilla is quite astonishing, even if it wasn’t meant as a racial slur I find it hard to believe that the poster wouldn’t make the connection that it is in poor taste.
Well it depends what clarifies as racist. Personally I thought hating people based on the colour of their skin was racist but apparently now saying Kante is a great athlete or yakubu was a lazy footballer is walking the line of political correctness as if somehow a basic observation is now pigeon holing someone into a racial stereotype box. And if you don’t realise that you are doing it it’s because you wouldn’t understand, you have no history of racial bias against you and possibly are “subconsciously” a bit racist without knowing it.I think you’re making a strange leap of logic there, as if racists should be logical with their racists ideas so they don’t contradict each other or something. Racism is by definition illogical. So its possible that two contradicting racist stereotypes can exist at the same time.
Whether or not any of this applies to Lukaku is another thing. I was thinking he wasn’t putting enough effort in yesterday, but generally speaking I think he gets labelled with that criticism more than he deserves.
I even forgot about that.Yes, it went as far as supposed experts saying that he couldn’t score when he had time to think about the chance. Anyone who actually watched him play over a period of time (or even looked at a video of his goals) would know that it is absolute nonsense.
Don’t know if it was race related but Glenn Hoddle didn’t help Cole’s corner much with his “he needs 5 chances to score” comments. Regarding that comment, I would say that:
1) it is not true of Andy Cole
2) a 20% conversion rate is not actually that bad. According to the bbc, Salah has scored 10 from 43 shots this season.
Why?Regardless, your comment about 'victim culture' weakens your point.
I find that thread fascinating really. 2007 but people are openly discussing the different attributes that certain racial groups possess that make them suited to certain roles or excel in certain sports(only read the first couple of pages so not sure how it progressed) can't imagine this board being comfortable with that type of discussion these days.
Because this...Why?
...just makes you sound like yet another 'You can't say nuffing nowadays' type; which, I assume, you're not.This argument of people being patronisingly told that they are “subconsciously” rasict even if they don’t mean to be is a sad result of modern day “victim culture”
Agreed. I actually also think he understands the game and is aware of his strengths and limitations.Have you heard him talk much? He's very articulate and measured.
I think people often look for racism where it does not necessarily exist. As John Barnes said the other day on Sky we don't want to get to a place where all criticim of black people is deemed the result of racism. That would just lead to differences in treatment of people based on race which is really what we should be transcending instead of encouraging.Well it depends what clarifies as racist. Personally I thought hating people based on the colour of their skin was racist but apparently now saying Kante is a great athlete or yakubu was a lazy footballer is walking the line of political correctness as if somehow a basic observation is now pigeon holing someone into a racial stereotype box. And if you don’t realise that you are doing it it’s because you wouldn’t understand, you have no history of racial bias against you and possibly are “subconsciously” a bit racist without knowing it.
An interesting read. However I would say these are two different versions of “victim culture”. Gullit for example being repeatedly racially abused from the sidelines and feeling powerless to talk about it in fear of being accused of pandering to “victim culture” is awful and something that huge strides have been made towards clamping out. Both in the behaviour and the platform to address it. However the “victim culture” I am referring to is for example in this case lukaku being called lazy somehow makes him a victim of racial stereotyping when his performances this season and body laguage have looked lazy. As for the subconscious bias of black and white athletes being viewed differently by the media I can’t say I ever thought about it until it was mentioned a while back. I dare say maybe there is an element of truth to the stereotypes. Some sports that support different disciplines have been dominated by race. Golf and formula 1 racing have been predominantly dominated by white people (with very noticeable exceptions such as tiger woods and Lewis Hamilton) and sports like basketball and athletics at the highest level seem to be dominated by black people. Perhaps some people would view that as racist that golf and formula 1 are more technical and basketball and athletics is more athletic but the evidence is there for all to see. You could argue it comes down to finance as golf and racing are expensive hobbies. But boxing for example, a very mixed race sport. Look at the number of black heavyweight world champion boxers compared to whites over the last few decades. It would be overwhelmingly dominated by black men. Perhaps it’s as a result of these facts that people view black and white athletes differently subconsciously without it being a case of white people are made out to be clever and black people are made out to be big and fast.www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/46581645
Victim culture
Regarding subconscious biases. If you dont know they exist it doesnt make you a racist.
However sometimes opinions are made which are clearly false but believed to be true based on those subconscious biases.
I dont think anyone is calling anyone subconsciously racist. The point is that some stereotypes have racist undertones because those subconscious biases have come about from many years of racism that has existed in the world.
Calling Lukaku lazy isnt an issue.
The fact most critism of blck players fall into the same categories and occur way more frequently than their white counterparts is the issue
Ok so it’s not ok to call a person lazy unless they’re white. Thanks for clearing that up!There isn't a history of white people being stereotyped as lazy, hence why calling a white player fat doesn't have the same implicit bias as it does when you do it for black players.
Fair point. On the other side, easily calling a person act/opinion as racist should be equally treat with contempt, regardless of skin color.Hence why I said, it won't be eradicated.
BTW this itself is a big issue, people have always been complaining btw, but check what Gullit said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46581645
The attitude that exists that people don't want to be told what they can and can't say over understanding the issues leads to what Gullit said above. That is the reason I said if you read this thread....
I mean the fact that people can be annoyed that people complain about living in a racist world should tell you all you need to know.
That could mean general intelligence. For example, look at our own ginger genius Scholes or even Giggs, who are probably our most intelligent on the field players. Yet from their punditry and the way they talk, they don't seem the brightest/cultured etc.Just regarding Lukaku's intelligence which has been discussed, Martinez actually said he's one of the more thoughtful intelligent players he's dealt with.
That isn't what she said at all though.Ok so it’s not ok to call a person lazy unless they’re white. Thanks for clearing that up!
Firstly, those two things are not mutually exclusive. Someone can naturally be a great athlete (very quick, very strong, can jump high etc) while also being lazy once they are actually on the pitch or even while training. Bolt for example was an incredible athlete but seemingly could be a bit lazy compared to some of this competitors when it came to training. It also goes without saying that people can generalise about a people who are not a homogenous group. For example, saying immigrants are simultaneously stealing our jobs while also somehow living off benefits. Someone can have athlete/ beast/ lazy as their go to descriptive words of black players and the current adjective used can depend on the player at hand, their current form etc.So first we had the “black players are athletes” stereotype and now we have the “black players are lazy” stereotype. So which one is it? Because they seem to be polar opposites of each other. Racism exists but it can’t all be a one way street for the rest of time. This argument of people being patronisingly told that they are “subconsciously” rasict even if they don’t mean to be is a sad result of modern day “victim culture”. Many players throughout our history have been accused of being lazy, out of shape, not intelligent on the pitch, not intelligent off the pitch without it being about racism. However calling lukaku a gorilla is quite astonishing, even if it wasn’t meant as a racial slur I find it hard to believe that the poster wouldn’t make the connection that it is in poor taste.
It’s not drama, it is a luxury because it gives white people the benefit of doubt, whereas people of colour always have to be labelled as that.No, you're not. The luxury part is just wanting to add unnecessary drama to it.
That’s not what I said at all, but sure.Ok so it’s not ok to call a person lazy unless they’re white. Thanks for clearing that up!
I agree. Calling someone racist shouldnt be taken lightly. Also in most cases the person isnt a racist or isnt even being called a racist. However once the word is used in any way, lets say someone is advised that something they have said has racist connotations then it seems that is taken as an accusation. We need to be able to get past that to have sensible discourse about such a conplex issue.Fair point. On the other side, easily calling a person act/opinion as racist should be equally treat with contempt, regardless of skin color.
Not what was said at all.Ok so it’s not ok to call a person lazy unless they’re white. Thanks for clearing that up!
Confused now. I just watched a Chelsea video telling me to say it every time i'm in Golders green. Which one's correct...?I didn't even know this 'lazy black player' was a thing??
Just like I'd never heard the word "Yid" until I saw a video produced by The FA telling me not to say the word "Yid".
I think its been well established in this thread that the Lukaku being lazy example was not a good one. However the OP also mentioned Lukaku being “dumb”. Others have been mentioned Rashford and Martial being “unintelligent”.An interesting read. However I would say these are two different versions of “victim culture”. Gullit for example being repeatedly racially abused from the sidelines and feeling powerless to talk about it in fear of being accused of pandering to “victim culture” is awful and something that huge strides have been made towards clamping out. Both in the behaviour and the platform to address it. However the “victim culture” I am referring to is for example in this case lukaku being called lazy somehow makes him a victim of racial stereotyping when his performances this season and body laguage have looked lazy. As for the subconscious bias of black and white athletes being viewed differently by the media I can’t say I ever thought about it until it was mentioned a while back. I dare say maybe there is an element of truth to the stereotypes. Some sports that support different disciplines have been dominated by race. Golf and formula 1 racing have been predominantly dominated by white people (with very noticeable exceptions such as tiger woods and Lewis Hamilton) and sports like basketball and athletics at the highest level seem to be dominated by black people. Perhaps some people would view that as racist that golf and formula 1 are more technical and basketball and athletics is more athletic but the evidence is there for all to see. You could argue it comes down to finance as golf and racing are expensive hobbies. But boxing for example, a very mixed race sport. Look at the number of black heavyweight world champion boxers compared to whites over the last few decades. It would be overwhelmingly dominated by black men. Perhaps it’s as a result of these facts that people view black and white athletes differently subconsciously without it being a case of white people are made out to be clever and black people are made out to be big and fast.
Apologies for the delay redlamb. Re the bolded. An important point missed here in the expected and predictable melee is that I called the thread in question as being full of casual racism. This was denied vehemently by a majority of posters, again not unexpectedly, whilst simultaneously showing a lack of understanding of the nature of casual racism as a form of racism itself. At no point have I called anyone a racist. They may be, they may not, I don't know this but what I have highlighted is, in my opinion, a high level of casual racism in that thread and also in matchday threads and in Lukaku's player performance thread. I've pointed out upthread how casual racism can manifest itself and how it can often be unintended or not meant as opposed to more overt racism. I also stated that we can all be guilty of it. I also stated early on that we can all be theoretically described as lazy irrespective of colour. This goes without saying.@Barca84 Despite answering posts either side of this one, you seem to have missed it. Thoughts on my question?
@villain You are usually the best person to clarify these things on here and I trust your judgment these days, so I have a question. What is the purpose of this discussion in particular? As in, what's the goal here?
Now that might sound like a simple thing (obviously not in practical terms mind!), to end Racism but what I'm specifically referring to is the thread title. "Lazy Black Player". Now is there a huge amount of this actually being said, or is that misleading? I mean only an idiot would think this isn't an actual thing, people may not even know they do it, but stereotyping is real and this off course happens. I'm guilty of it myself, and I'll admit it, I often think of black players to be more physical specimens when in reality obviously that's wrong.
What I'm getting at, is what are we actually saying here? Stop calling black players lazy full stop? Is it ok if we all agree and promise to only say it because someone is actually lazy? I'm not being funny with this at all, I just think these discussions don't actually go anywhere because this kind of question isn't ever answered, i.e if most of use aren't actually being racist and just think a black player is lazy, how is the difference seen?
I'm probably explaining my point badly, but I guess what I'm saying is the thread title is loaded and there doesn't seem to be much discussion on the way we move forward. It doesn't help that those little loops are thrown in from the start, like the question to barca above and the whole "stop saying the race card is being pulled!" thing. Because just as sure as there are people with inherent racist views, there are those who jump to the wrong conclusion about these matters over and over. Just seems to me like a vicious circle and there's never an honest answer to an honest question.
Excellent post. Casual racism is rife on this board.Apologies for the delay redlamb. Re the bolded. An important point missed here in the expected and predictable melee is that I called the thread in question as being full of casual racism. This was denied vehemently by a majority of posters, again not unexpectedly, whilst simultaneously showing a lack of understanding of the nature of casual racism as a form of racism itself. At no point have I called anyone a racist. They may be, they may not, I don't know this but what I have highlighted is, in my opinion, a high level of casual racism in that thread and also in matchday threads and in Lukaku's player performance thread. I've pointed out upthread how casual racism can manifest itself and how it can often be unintended or not meant as opposed to more overt racism. I also stated that we can all be guilty of it. I also stated early on that we can all be theoretically described as lazy irrespective of colour. This goes without saying.
There has been a "lazy black player" stereotype in football and as an older fan remember it well from the 70s onwards hence my reference to how far we have moved on since then. One of our former managers has been ostracised from the game for these very views. Is it as prevalent now? That was the question raised for me by the unending accusations of laziness directed at one player in particular. He may be lazy, he may not, but it is the insistent and consistent levelling of this particular accusation that resonated. It partly resonates because it comes in partnership with several other repeated accusations. One is that Lukaku is dumb, another is that he is fat, and another in that particular thread is that he is lying and untrustworthy. The repeated use of the "dumb" word is problematic for me also as for decades black people have been described as being dumb with the n-word attached as a chaser. Ir seems to me we've largely outlawed the n-word but a lot of the sentiment remains. Throughout that thread it's suggested that Lukaku's supposed dumbness has played it's part in him getting fat. His laziness also is implied as being a factor. So he's dumb, and he's lazy, he's fat and then according to multiple posters he's making excuses ie lying. In summary a thread on a Manchester United player develops over pages of what I interpret as casual racism to paint a picture that is, almost to a tee, a present day example of the Coon Caricature posted by @villain upthread (a good read) A black man employed for his physical prowess consistently described as dumb, fat, lazy, and untrustworthy because he is not performing to expectation.
So I should perhaps have titled the thread "Black player stereotypes" because the casual racism is much wider than mass and consistent accusations of laziness and there's the mob/pack dynamic to it. And the reason I spoke out was because, as this casual racism proceeded unchallenged, the inevitable happened. We got the black man is a gorilla post. Possibly still casual but so outrageous in 2018 that it would be difficult to not classify that as overt and intended and that's the end product of unchallenged, repeated casual racism.
I thought the talksport host was spot on. I'd not seen/heard that but he'd echo my views re the importance of the words we use, why we are using them and in what context. .
I find casual racism is rife on this board. It runs like a vein through the recent Raheem Sterling thread and is never far away from any thread, football or non football related, that touches on BAME players, people and culture. This thread is another example. It's a reflection of what I sense is the prevailing demographic on this board and the fury you get when you poke your head over the parapet and point out the issue isn't enough of a reason to keep silent and let it go. A baying mob decrying that this is an "attack on free speech" by an "extreme left winger" , "deflecting from real racism", "stirring" etc etc. It's probably just a small taste of what it's like to be black in a white man's world but then a lot of white folk have always got very upset when they get told how they should speak about black people.
We still have bananas being thrown at black players.
I wholeheartedly agree.Apologies for the delay redlamb. Re the bolded. An important point missed here in the expected and predictable melee is that I called the thread in question as being full of casual racism. This was denied vehemently by a majority of posters, again not unexpectedly, whilst simultaneously showing a lack of understanding of the nature of casual racism as a form of racism itself. At no point have I called anyone a racist. They may be, they may not, I don't know this but what I have highlighted is, in my opinion, a high level of casual racism in that thread and also in matchday threads and in Lukaku's player performance thread. I've pointed out upthread how casual racism can manifest itself and how it can often be unintended or not meant as opposed to more overt racism. I also stated that we can all be guilty of it. I also stated early on that we can all be theoretically described as lazy irrespective of colour. This goes without saying.
There has been a "lazy black player" stereotype in football and as an older fan remember it well from the 70s onwards hence my reference to how far we have moved on since then. One of our former managers has been ostracised from the game for these very views. Is it as prevalent now? That was the question raised for me by the unending accusations of laziness directed at one player in particular. He may be lazy, he may not, but it is the insistent and consistent levelling of this particular accusation that resonated. It partly resonates because it comes in partnership with several other repeated accusations. One is that Lukaku is dumb, another is that he is fat, and another in that particular thread is that he is lying and untrustworthy. The repeated use of the "dumb" word is problematic for me also as for decades black people have been described as being dumb with the n-word attached as a chaser. Ir seems to me we've largely outlawed the n-word but a lot of the sentiment remains. Throughout that thread it's suggested that Lukaku's supposed dumbness has played it's part in him getting fat. His laziness also is implied as being a factor. So he's dumb, and he's lazy, he's fat and then according to multiple posters he's making excuses ie lying. In summary a thread on a Manchester United player develops over pages of what I interpret as casual racism to paint a picture that is, almost to a tee, a present day example of the Coon Caricature posted by @villain upthread (a good read) A black man employed for his physical prowess consistently described as dumb, fat, lazy, and untrustworthy because he is not performing to expectation.
So I should perhaps have titled the thread "Black player stereotypes" because the casual racism is much wider than mass and consistent accusations of laziness and there's the mob/pack dynamic to it. And the reason I spoke out was because, as this casual racism proceeded unchallenged, the inevitable happened. We got the black man is a gorilla post. Possibly still casual but so outrageous in 2018 that it would be difficult to not classify that as overt and intended and that's the end product of unchallenged, repeated casual racism.
I thought the talksport host was spot on. I'd not seen/heard that but he'd echo my views re the importance of the words we use, why we are using them and in what context. .
I find casual racism is rife on this board. It runs like a vein through the recent Raheem Sterling thread and is never far away from any thread, football or non football related, that touches on BAME players, people and culture. This thread is another example. It's a reflection of what I sense is the prevailing demographic on this board and the fury you get when you poke your head over the parapet and point out the issue isn't enough of a reason to keep silent and let it go. A baying mob decrying that this is an "attack on free speech" by an "extreme left winger" , "deflecting from real racism", "stirring" etc etc. It's probably just a small taste of what it's like to be black in a white man's world but then a lot of white folk have always got very upset when they get told how they should speak about black people.
We still have bananas being thrown at black players.
Do you wonder why?This place is absolutely obsessed with racism.