My local co-op has regulars who go in and are allowed to just take what they want. i asked why, and they said its not worth the hastle
Westminster Politics
- Thread starter altodevil
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For some reason I can imagine them having a polite little chat with the staff as they rob them dry.
At least with retail shopping there’s hasn’t been a massive increase in shop lifting -
https://novaramedia.com/2023/10/31/there-is-zero-evidence-of-a-shoplifting-epidemic/
I guess we would need the data for small businesses if that possible. It’s true percentage of action not taken against shop lifters has increased but
1. Would added police officers bring the number down ? Plus there’s trade off with added more police as their role doesn’t stop at guarding Greggs.
2. Is arresting people for shopping lifting actually stopping the crime in the long term.
Also tbh there’s overall point which is the likes of Starmer or Reeves love nothing more than to tell the public there’s no magic money tree or the incoming years are going to be difficult. Yet recently labour have backed more military spending and now more police funding. This there’s is no money schtick is just pure bollocks.
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That article, which completely overlooks the big rise in incidents of violence against staff, is quite old now and the British Retail Consortium has since put its 2024 crime report.
Shows 'incidents of theft' rose to 16.7m from 8m y-o-y - costing £1.8bn, first time it was over £1bn- crime prevention costs up over £500m too. Incidents of abuse and violence up from 850 a day to 1,300, (450 a day in 2019-20 last pre-pandemic year), with a conviction rate of 8%. Violence was down slightly yoy, but abuse up hugely. Abuse and violence against staff actually leapt during Covid.
It paints a pretty grim picture of rising crime, the increasing breakdown of society and the country becoming a less safe, more unpleasant place to live. I'm sure most, or certainly a lot, of us have nicked stuff from a shop in our lives, but the shit low paid staff are having to take is unacceptable.
Whoever is in government should definitely invest more in the police, along with healthcare, mental health services etc...I don't like Reeves at all either and she can shove the money tree up her arse.
You're asking if actively preventing shoplifting would reduce shoplifting? Even your own source says this in the first paragraph;
"On the surface, business owners would seem right to be concerned – the average number of recorded cases is up 59% since 2020, and the vast majority of cases are not resolved."
It's like you see "Labour" and immediately you need to have a go even if the policy is sound.
But tbh you're looking for the wrong data. Funnily enough you seem focused on the finances rather than the people who are affected. Go and ask some folk who work in these smaller stores how they feel working there nowadays. When my missus was still in a nearby McColl's the amount of stories she would come back with were mental. And it was always the same suspects so everyone knew who they were. They didn't give a feck. When she was pregnant I kept worrying that today was going to be the day when Dickhead #3 would finally go further than just threatening to jump over the counter if anyone got in his way whilst he filled a bag with raw meat and chocolate bars.
There's tonnes of documented incidents and nothing happens because of it. Bellow all you want but this is a sound policy and for once Labour aren't just going with the story of the day or copying the Tories.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68467253.amp
Suffice to say that this particular subject is personal to me!
I would say that a better use of this money would be implementing it in social actions that helps people not shoplifting
There is usually a reason for crime and need to tackle the cause, not thw symptom with more policing. Because in the end we will police drug addicts, mental illness, who is disables or not to claim benefits and so on
https://img.comicfury.com/comics/196/27999a1595203076b6713f1727314542.png
(Cant embed it in my phone)
Cheers for this. Tbh I’m always cynical when the answer more police(Happened under the Corbyn years as well).The reports shows a bad picture although it does seem to want to hit everything in slight with a big hammer(Again the cynical part of me thinks the retail companies don’t care about the abuse as it makes the work more insecure which keeps wages low)But still it was good to read.
I’m a Marxist the finances are the people! But really the financials show a bigger picture overall and we shouldn’t base policy around people individual stories. Of course there are people who had awful experience(The data on abuse faced by workers is important).
The reason I say this isn’t because I’m a cold hearted commie but the role of police officers isn’t just to stand outside Greggs and make sure everyone is nice. Officers have other impacts on society. We have police stations across the country who are institutionally racist and a danger to women. If we just increase the funding and people in these places what are we expecting to happen. There are trade off to these things
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Ok, counter offer. Spend the money on all of these instead BUT have one dedicated Gregg's Officer who travels around the UK making sure that they don't run out of pepperoni pizza slices at lunch time, because that shit just isn't on.
The report certainly indicates how fecked off retailers are with the police doing feck all about shoplifters. We get accustomed to crime in the UK- I was burgled twice, my wife had a bag snatched and I had bags nicked from pubs and that sort of stuff. You don't realise how nice it is living in a place where you can leave your laptop or phone etc and go to the counter to pick up your drink without worrying that your stuff will get nicked. Or you can walk anywhere at any time and never feel unsafe cos you don't have sink estates.
Not talking about Tory wet dream fascist state policing or Blairite petty authoritarianism.
So I used to run a retail business, 20 stores and about 150 staff, so I can talk with some personal experience of the change over the last 2 years really. It was employee owned, so the staff had some skin in the game for preventing shoplifting and in all cases were excellent in managing it. The core factor is a drop off in police activity to actually doing something about shoplifting and actually coming out to investigate and an increase in abuse (both verbal and physical) of store staff, meaning challenging any one shoplifting isn't recommended. It's a vicious cycle because the shoplifters know full well that they won't get chased as it's deemed as low level crime, and they can do anything to store staff and know that little action will be taken. The more this happens, then unfortunately the more brazen it becomes. On one site we had a Tesco Express adjacent to us (run down part of the Wirral) and you just saw people walking in and taking beer off the shelf and just walking straight out, not even running as they know no one is even going to stop them.
The financials of between 0.3-0.5% of revenue as shrinkage (retail term for stock loss) from those articles is pretty accurate, but there was definitely increases in shoplifting since 2022. From my own experience and anecdotal feedback is that most shoplifting that we saw was professional shoplifters and have been doing it for some time, as opposed to some recent demand in new criminals coming to the fore.
The main bug for retailers though is definitely the police not doing anything about it or at the minimum coming out to take information. The amount they pay in business rates is significant and for the police to do very little is what's changed here. Any policy that begins to address can only be a good thing, especially for the people on the shop floor.
People say they’re on a ‘moral mission’ can go sell their snake oil elsewhere!
Here’s what moral missions look like:
Stop childhood obesity -> tax ultra processed foods to the hills, provide cheap, natural foods, provide subsidised cooking a nutrition awareness classes.
Stop parents from abandoning children due to burnout -> reopen every single Sure Start centre that was closed by George Osbourne. Give parents support they need.
Stop child anti-social behaviour -> reopen every leisure club, sports centre, library, swimming pool that was closed after 2010, to give young people thingns to do!
Stop childhood mental illness -> penalise online platforms for allowing kids to access social media before they should. Fund CAMHS so you don’t have to have tried to end your life before you get an appointment.
Stop ‘sick-note culture’ -> fund NHS services so that people get treated within 6 months, before ‘common’ issues become debilitating ones.
Stop shoplifting -> ban zero-hour contracts. Ban limitless increases on private rent increases so people can, bear with me, afford food!
Win the ‘war on drugs’ implement all of the above.
Don’t punish people for decisions YOU made!
Here’s what moral missions look like:
Stop childhood obesity -> tax ultra processed foods to the hills, provide cheap, natural foods, provide subsidised cooking a nutrition awareness classes.
Stop parents from abandoning children due to burnout -> reopen every single Sure Start centre that was closed by George Osbourne. Give parents support they need.
Stop child anti-social behaviour -> reopen every leisure club, sports centre, library, swimming pool that was closed after 2010, to give young people thingns to do!
Stop childhood mental illness -> penalise online platforms for allowing kids to access social media before they should. Fund CAMHS so you don’t have to have tried to end your life before you get an appointment.
Stop ‘sick-note culture’ -> fund NHS services so that people get treated within 6 months, before ‘common’ issues become debilitating ones.
Stop shoplifting -> ban zero-hour contracts. Ban limitless increases on private rent increases so people can, bear with me, afford food!
Win the ‘war on drugs’ implement all of the above.
Don’t punish people for decisions YOU made!
It's about time the Govt. cracked down on these malingering 'disabled' parasites. Can't they just, you know, kill them?
Help for disabled people in England and Wales to get jobs is axed amid benefits crackdown
Closure of Work and Health Programme comes hard on heels of Rishi Sunak’s bid to end the UK’s supposed ‘sicknote’ culture
https://www.theguardian.com/society...le-england-wales-jobs-axed-benefits-crackdown
Help for disabled people in England and Wales to get jobs is axed amid benefits crackdown
Closure of Work and Health Programme comes hard on heels of Rishi Sunak’s bid to end the UK’s supposed ‘sicknote’ culture
https://www.theguardian.com/society...le-england-wales-jobs-axed-benefits-crackdown
All they now have left is cruelty and nastiness.
Thank you, and sorry for the late reply. Much better, although medicated to the gills!
Help for disabled people in England and Wales to get jobs is axed amid benefits crackdown
A major scheme to help disabled people into work has been quietly scrapped – just as the prime minister announced a crackdown on disability benefits.
https://www.theguardian.com/society...le-england-wales-jobs-axed-benefits-crackdown
The £100m Work and Health Programme, operating in England and Wales, will end in the autumn, providers have been told, at the same time that Rishi Sunak wants to cut benefits for 420,000 sick and disabled people in an attempt to force them into work – a move that charities say would instead leave people destitute.
The blow to disabled people comes after the prime minister unveiled a plan to hand power to officials with no medical training to decide whether an employee is sick, raising the possibility that decisions about workers’ health will be taken to hit targets rather than on clinical need.
Charities condemned Sunak’s plans as a “full-on assault on disabled people” last week, after he announced a consultation on the future of the personal independence payment (PIP), which helps cover the extra costs of living with a disability or ill health.
The prime minister wants to cut the disability welfare budget of £69bn a year, amid rising levels of sickness. The charitable Health Foundation said last week that by 2040 health inequalities meant that 3.7 million adults, many in deprived areas, would be living with a major illness such as type 2 diabetes, chronic pain or depression.
Sunak said that Britain had a “sicknote culture” and blamed the problem of “young people … parked on welfare”, although the majority of people receiving statutory sick pay are women over 50 working part-time, according to the Resolution Foundation.
He said there was “a moral mission” to help people return to work. Yet he did not mention the end of funding to help people return to work through the Work and Health Programme (WHP). It was launched in November 2017, with some EU funding, and was primarily a voluntary scheme aimed at helping disabled people into work. By November 2023 it had helped 300,000 people, with 31% still in their jobs after two years.
A major scheme to help disabled people into work has been quietly scrapped – just as the prime minister announced a crackdown on disability benefits.
https://www.theguardian.com/society...le-england-wales-jobs-axed-benefits-crackdown
The £100m Work and Health Programme, operating in England and Wales, will end in the autumn, providers have been told, at the same time that Rishi Sunak wants to cut benefits for 420,000 sick and disabled people in an attempt to force them into work – a move that charities say would instead leave people destitute.
The blow to disabled people comes after the prime minister unveiled a plan to hand power to officials with no medical training to decide whether an employee is sick, raising the possibility that decisions about workers’ health will be taken to hit targets rather than on clinical need.
Charities condemned Sunak’s plans as a “full-on assault on disabled people” last week, after he announced a consultation on the future of the personal independence payment (PIP), which helps cover the extra costs of living with a disability or ill health.
The prime minister wants to cut the disability welfare budget of £69bn a year, amid rising levels of sickness. The charitable Health Foundation said last week that by 2040 health inequalities meant that 3.7 million adults, many in deprived areas, would be living with a major illness such as type 2 diabetes, chronic pain or depression.
Sunak said that Britain had a “sicknote culture” and blamed the problem of “young people … parked on welfare”, although the majority of people receiving statutory sick pay are women over 50 working part-time, according to the Resolution Foundation.
He said there was “a moral mission” to help people return to work. Yet he did not mention the end of funding to help people return to work through the Work and Health Programme (WHP). It was launched in November 2017, with some EU funding, and was primarily a voluntary scheme aimed at helping disabled people into work. By November 2023 it had helped 300,000 people, with 31% still in their jobs after two years.
Cut the NHS to the bone. 14 years later..."Why are so many people ill?"
Also - spend those 14 years making life more difficult and more expensive for everyone and wonder why chronic bad mental health is so widespead?!
Imagine if, instead of austerity and reducing NHS funding, we'd just did what a normal country would have done and paid for hede things during a time of zero cost borrowing, would we have as much of a "sick note" culture.
Is this Sick Note Culture even a thing?
Of course it's a thing! It's the biggest crisis hitting the UK beside foreigners coming over here on their fleet of dingies to steal our jobs and kebabs, or our schools trying turn our kids into wokes.
Can’t wait for Labour to agree with Sunak et al. that Sick Note Culture is a real thing and agree to not overturn any policy implemented, as the new holders of the “fiscally responsible political party” trophy.
The last time Rachel Reeves was trying to get a position in government she spent it saying she didn't want Labour to even be seen to represent anyone in receipt of benefits, nevermind actually do so, so you won't be disappointed.
It is exactly the position to govern from, if you have a large majority. It's if you have a small majority you are likely to find it rather uncomfortable.
Yes well done for missing the context of the statement.
Which was???
Getting into government with a huge majority because the country is protesting against the Tories, rather than getting into government on the merit of your own popularity and because the country believes in your policies and have granted you a mandate accordingly.
If Starmer does get in with a huge majority but ultimately Starmer and Labour are deeply unpopular, it will be completely unsustainable.
Currently they are the opposition and are being compared to a deeply unpopular government. As soon as they’re in government they’re held to their own standards and they begin to get polls on their own performance as a government and if they’re polling badly things will get ugly quickly.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...087a5f2ec3fea8#block-662684178f087a5f2ec3fea8
Labour's Stephen Kinnock says ministers deliberately held up Rwanda bill to make 'grubby political capital from delay'
Today is 22 April. We were initially told that this was emergency legislation, and yet we’re now being told that there’ll be a 10 to 12 week delay in getting the first flight off the ground.
When Starmer thought he'd be renegotiating the Brexit Trade Deal - he probably didn't expect that he'd have to beg to have the current one back. Bye bye trade deals.
Labour's Stephen Kinnock says ministers deliberately held up Rwanda bill to make 'grubby political capital from delay'
Today is 22 April. We were initially told that this was emergency legislation, and yet we’re now being told that there’ll be a 10 to 12 week delay in getting the first flight off the ground.
When Starmer thought he'd be renegotiating the Brexit Trade Deal - he probably didn't expect that he'd have to beg to have the current one back. Bye bye trade deals.
They'll have no choice. The economy can't sustain the increasingly large numbers of young people getting signed off work. Almost a million since Covid. Whoever is in power will need to sort that situation out and quickly.
Almost like they should borrow some money to build good, energy efficient housing stock, invest in green technology to grow the economy, and to improve mental health services and social care. What will make people sicker is no help, no money and no support. And Labour aren't all that far off proposing all those things right now so they can meet some imaginary fiscal rules they imposed on themselves and look like they hate the population like all good governments seemingly should in this country.
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Good on her, always liked her. Shame she has the wrong accent as I'd have loved to see her successfully become an MP.
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No choice but to continue a manufactured bit of Tory outrage and move responsibility of signing people off sick from GPs to the DWP?
Although suppose it’s a cheaper solution to change the definition of “sick” rather than invest in the structures that improves health.
I haven’t actually seen Labour’s response… they’ve been too busy ensuring they’re draped in the George Cross I think.
What do you think are the primary reasons people are getting sick notes?
When people can’t work and don’t have any from benefits, what do you think will happen to the crime statistics?
It's almost like not investing in adequate national health service has economic consequences.
Just saying people hoping Labour get in and reverse policies like this are going to be sorely disappointed. They don't have that option.
I don't expect them to reverse this policy, but not because "they don't have the option". This policy isn't unavoidable.
I for one I'm utterly shocked @11101 has swallowed the sick note bullshit hook, line and sinker.