UK still has its finger firmly on the self-destruct button.
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Westminster Politics
- Thread starter altodevil
- Start date
I can really see why - if there isn't a genuine health crisis fuelling this - so many young people are not working, and it's because the balance has shifted too far away from work providing a clear path to personal freedom and security.
They want you to work in an environment where you start your career often having amassed tens of thousands in debt already, and compete against an aging workforce with in-work experience. So, you need to work your way towards a shrinking number of opportunities by cobbling together a living from zero-hour contracts or low-wage jobs for mega-corps with limited workers rights and zero benefits. And all so you can pay off some boomer's mortgage while never having enough to put into savings at the end of the month in order to break the chain and buy a place of your own, and as each day goes by the goal posts get moved further and further away.
That is the sad state of affairs young people in this country are dealing with, and it's inevitable that those circumstances will be enough to ruin lives and cause some to drop out of the whole charade. Successive governments have done absolutely nothing for the youth of the country other than to make things more and more difficult for them.
They want you to work in an environment where you start your career often having amassed tens of thousands in debt already, and compete against an aging workforce with in-work experience. So, you need to work your way towards a shrinking number of opportunities by cobbling together a living from zero-hour contracts or low-wage jobs for mega-corps with limited workers rights and zero benefits. And all so you can pay off some boomer's mortgage while never having enough to put into savings at the end of the month in order to break the chain and buy a place of your own, and as each day goes by the goal posts get moved further and further away.
That is the sad state of affairs young people in this country are dealing with, and it's inevitable that those circumstances will be enough to ruin lives and cause some to drop out of the whole charade. Successive governments have done absolutely nothing for the youth of the country other than to make things more and more difficult for them.
How is there so many stupid people who buy into this rubbish?
They're literally destroying the country, but a significant portion of thick cnuts in the UK are like, 'look, coloured people'
They're literally destroying the country, but a significant portion of thick cnuts in the UK are like, 'look, coloured people'
This is the bit that counts getting into Government.
With a large majority is the next bit, because it widens the options, popularity only comes into it when Starmer (or whoever) begins to roll out the policies. When the majority is small the range of policy options open is limited and the inherited condition from the previous government will weigh heavy.
I would expect to see Labour (realistically) canvasing on a two-term timetable, to make the headway required, this will be emphasised during the run up to the GE. It is imperative Starmer only promises what is possible for the first term, but can layout what will follow in a second term.
The wish for the country to rid itself of this present government is becoming increasingly palpable by the day, it therefore requires the Labour party to be circumspect in its approach, not trying to be popular with policies it knows it cannot achieve in one term, this is where the danger lies.
Right but that’s where the problem lies and the entire point. You can’t achieve anything in one term let alone turn this country around from the disaster path the Tories have put it on.
So you have a deeply unpopular Prime Minister that is only in power because the public is sick to death of the current Tories. He’s in power with no positive policies and only promises to do the same thing that the Tories have been doing for the last decade and a half. So while he spends the next 5 years or so laying the ground work but getting nothing actually done, the Tories are regrouping, the right wing media machine is going in hard on the Labour government and the public have the memories of goldfish have forgotten and forgiven the Tories and have once again been convinced that they are the ones to lead the county again with their tax cuts funded entirely by the groundwork Labour have laid over the last 5 years.
Rinse and repeat. The county is beyond saving.
"Laying the groundwork" is what gets done.
Part of that 'laying the groundwork' will be the emergency measures he can take, to ease problems, but it will be limited.
However, fourteen years of misrule ; including major unplanned economic changes (because they didn't expect a 'leave' result) like @Paul the Wolf will tell you about Brexit; dealing with pandemics, spending billions on 'stop gap' measures that made some rich but the majority poorer, panicking actions over 'small boats', failure to tackle housing issues that have dragged on for more than 14 years, all this is groundwork that has to be done-over.
Headway will not be made until, the second term, telling us anything else is telling the country lies.
Apart from all the other internal issues, the Rwanda bill get's passed he'll have some more work to do with legal challenges from the worldwide community , possible annulment of trade deals if the UK pull out of the ECHR and re-solving the Northern Ireland issue. One huge mess pounding the Uk from all sides and all self-inflicted. Starmer is not strong enough.
Thanks Paul can rely on you, but it's not all self inflicted, some were 'events' over which we had no control; however some Tory reaction to these events could be described as self inflicted... give you that!
I think Starmer just might be made of stronger stuff, he has turned the public face of Labour around in double-quick time, you might be under estimating him, he just might turn out to be the man who speaks softly but carries a big stick
And I for one have absolutely no idea who you are.
Taking out whether this iteration of Labour actually want to do anything, I think the overhaul that's needed in most sectors is not insignificant so rushing into policies probably isn't the way to go. We've had over a decade of a party looking at things at a level no deeper than headline stats (hence blaming young people for not working, and blaming immigration for lack of jobs) rather than looking at underlying causes. Investing the money in the right places rather than just blaming people needs to be done, but it also needs doing carefully into the right areas otherwise we'll end up no better off.
I agree about the public, and Labour will need more than one term to turn things around to any decent degree. Whether they get that, and whether they're interested in doing the right things with Starmer is up in the air wat the moment.
Brexit was self-inflicted, the boats situation is self-inflicted by refusing legal routes. The handling of Covid was one of the worst in Europe. The Northern Ireland situation is self inflicted because of Brexit. The policies of the government are self-inflicted. Higher inflation than elsewhere is self-inflicted .Thanks Paul can rely on you, but it's not all self inflicted, some were 'events' over which we had no control; however some Tory reaction to these events could be described as self inflicted... give you that!
I think Starmer just might be made of stronger stuff, he has turned the public face of Labour around in double-quick time, you might be under estimating him, he just might turn out to be the man who speaks softly but carries a big stick
Starmer may use a big stick within his own party but on a national stage and certainly the international stage I just don't see him lasting very long.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...08c73410851b30#block-662795818f08c73410851b30
Civil servants must obey ministers if ordered to ignore ECHR injunctions blocking Rwanda flights, Sunak says
The FDA, the union which represents senior civil servants, is threatening the Home Office with legal action over new guidance for civil servants which says that, if a minister decides to ignore an injunction from the European court of human rights (ECHR) saying a deportation flight to Rwanda must not go ahead, officials have to do what the minister says and facilitate the flight – even though ignoring an ECHR injunction is in breach of international law.
North Korea-on-Thames?
Civil servants must obey ministers if ordered to ignore ECHR injunctions blocking Rwanda flights, Sunak says
The FDA, the union which represents senior civil servants, is threatening the Home Office with legal action over new guidance for civil servants which says that, if a minister decides to ignore an injunction from the European court of human rights (ECHR) saying a deportation flight to Rwanda must not go ahead, officials have to do what the minister says and facilitate the flight – even though ignoring an ECHR injunction is in breach of international law.
North Korea-on-Thames?
We will have to wait and see, I don't see how he can do much worse that the present lot.
Britain may not carry the weight it once did, but the world is changing and Starmer will need to recognise the place we fit in the new order.
Which will take another turn if Trump gets back in the US and the EU continues to have trouble with the governments of certain countries like Hungary. I can see other leaders facing problems of their own especially in terms of Nationalistic parties (mainly on the right).
I suspect the test will be the GE outcome, if the polls are right and the Tories are facing melt-down, and Starmer has a large majority, he has a chance. However, with a small majority he will undoubtedly have any number of problems, those that currently exist, multiplied by internal wranglings within the Labour party with what remains of the far left.
It’s funny reading your posts admitting what a terrible job the Tories have done this last decade after you’ve just spent the last decade on here arguing all their points.
With respect I think you ought to read my posts again.
I have pointed towards how the Tories operate, of which the strong point is they have managed to retain power even after all the mis-steps etc. They know generally how to obtain and retain power. Everything from the way they choose their leader, to their ability to the clearly focus on specific policies they pursue, policies that reinforces the position and represents the already privileged in our society. They are, or have been up to the last year or so, clear about what they are doing, at least in their own minds and can seemingly ride out internal battles that would sink other parties.
Their one weakness has been to continually shoot themselves in the foot, the longer they are in power. This always occurs as they near the end, because discipline goes and what is really going on underneath, surfaces.
Even then they are prepared to do whatever it takes to retain power, toss leaders overboard, one after another, and to continually keep trying to move the goalposts.
My presentation has been about their effectiveness in retaining power, not in what they are doing with it. I hope that Starmer is learning how to obtain power then how to use it. In my lifetime only two Labour leaders standout Harold Wilson and Tony Blair both knew how to lead. Wilson's lasting legacy was despite tremendous US pressure he kept us out of the Vietnam War, Blair despite the changes and improvements he made especially in the NHS, his legacy will be the Iraq War/WMD's. I hope Starmer's legacy is to have significantly 'moved the dial' for the benefit of the majority of the population.
Quality control
Does it matter which Party is in Government? The Country is broke technically. Debt £2.65 Trillion, GDP £2.50 trillion. The Oil revenues squandered. The NHS and Social Services abused. The Wealthy, and here's where it gets heated, escaping paying their way for years by taking advantage of loopholes made by, well, the Wealthy. Wealthy to me is someone that can pay all their bills, have Holidays, savings and don't have to worry about energy costs. It would be nice if whoever was Governing the Country would do just that instead of trying to get each other sacked over some incident or other. At least Labour have an economist as shadow chancellor but then again so was Kwarteng and look what a mess he made. We need someone with the balls to sort things out and upset the establishment and the Wokes and I can't see Starmer or who ever will be leading the failing Tories doing that.
As a Grandparent, I do worry about what work will be available for my Grandchildren in ten plus years time. I wouldn't encourage them to do the University thing and have the debt hanging over them.
As a Grandparent, I do worry about what work will be available for my Grandchildren in ten plus years time. I wouldn't encourage them to do the University thing and have the debt hanging over them.
We are not broke.
This is despite the fact that:
From 1694 to 2010 this country racked up £800 billion in national debt.
This government has racked up over £1.6 trillion in debt in 14 years whilst promising to save money due to austerity.
We have accrued more debt in the past 14 years than we did fighting Napoleon, the War of the Spanish Succession, the American Revolution, World War 1, World War 2, gaining an Empire, losing an Empire, and setting up the welfare state.
This Government has spent all that money on cutting services, Brexit and reducing taxes on wealth, but not on income, and as you said - that has been taken advantage of
We need to desperately spend money to fix things. Climate change. Public services. Training people for AI.
We were in a worse position in 1945 and we created the welfare state. That's the scale of thinking needed now.
This makes interesting reading.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...QQFnoECCcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1NYYp58Q9pf3oDqR3yJVyY
Exactly, if Starmer gets the massive majority it must not be wasted. The scale of thinking has to be on what will change the lives (move the dial) of the majority of the population. The 'Articles of War' on this need to be drawn up in the first term, the ground laid, etc. It won't be delivered in one term, but it can be defined and agreed. At the same time some emergency help will be needed, in supporting the existing welfare state, NHS, Education and where possible a start made on housing, but the big push will come in the second and hopefully third terms of a empowered Labour Government.
Who exactly are the establishment and the Wokes? Sounds like a boy band or a group of petty criminals from the East End.
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The problem with the Tories the last 15 years is that they’ve been doing everything the woke crowd wanted.
850,000 is the number I think since Covid. Some genuine, some not, but that doesn't really matter. It's a few billion extra on the welfare budget and a few billion less in tax take. It can't be ignored and one way or another those people need to be back working. To think Labour are going to get in and pretend there's nothing wrong is fanciful.
What do you think the Tory government over the last 15 years has done for the 'wokes'?
Ah, yes, 'the wokes'.
It's amazing how many have fallen for this rhetoric. The right wing have done a fantastic job of getting the general public to believe that all the problems they have caused, all the miscarriages of justice and all the corruption and inequality they have overseen aren't as bad as the people who have noticed those problems and are justifiably angry about it all.
No, you misunderstand. He just wants the wokes to stop moaning about stuff.
Granted, people complain more about woke stuff than the actual woke people complain but that's besides the points. The wokes are ruining this empire #backsunak #cuntyhashtags
Isn't it about time that the far-right nutjobs like Farage and Tice could actually tell someone who the establishment and the elite are?
That's such a woke thing to say
It's about time some faceless EU bureaucrat stuck a bendy banana up their *****!That's such a woke thing to say
Agree.
I lost one of my close friends earlier this year who took his own life after a long period of suffering and badly struggling with his mental health and depression. Seeing something like that up close is heartbreaking. This sort of news just comes as a massive slap in the face to those that are similarly affected & struggling to cope.
Just hope this doesn't happen but when you’ve got a moron like this man as your PM then it’s a worry.
This has been happening for years:
From 2024:
Coroner criticises benefits rules after vulnerable claimant’s death
DWP missed many chances to act as woman’s mental health declined while under overpayment investigation
https://www.theguardian.com/society...nefits-rules-after-vulnerable-claimants-death
From 2018:
Family of man who starved to death after benefits cut lose case against DWP
Family may appeal in case of mentally ill 57-year-old whose death in 2018 led to new benefits guidelines
https://www.theguardian.com/society...ath-after-benefits-cut-loses-case-against-dwp
From 2015:
Call for publication of review into man who killed himself after benefits cut
UK government asked to publish review into case of Tim Salter, one of 60 investigations into suicides linked to benefit changes
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/11/publication-secret-review-benefits-cut-tim-salter
Thousands have died after being found fit for work, DWP figures show
Campaigners demand welfare overhaul after statistics reveal 2,380 people died between 2011 and 2014 shortly after being declared able to work
https://www.theguardian.com/society...ied-after-fit-for-work-assessment-dwp-figures
From 2014:
‘No one should die penniless and alone’: the victims of Britain’s harsh welfare sanctions
David Clapson was found dead last year after his benefits were stopped on the grounds that he wasn't taking the search for work seriously. He had an empty stomach, and just £3.44 to his name. Now thousands of other claimants are being left in similarly dire straits by tough new welfare sanctions
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/03/victims-britains-harsh-welfare-sanctions
All evidence that we are too generous with benefits, apparently.
From 2024:
Coroner criticises benefits rules after vulnerable claimant’s death
DWP missed many chances to act as woman’s mental health declined while under overpayment investigation
https://www.theguardian.com/society...nefits-rules-after-vulnerable-claimants-death
From 2018:
Family of man who starved to death after benefits cut lose case against DWP
Family may appeal in case of mentally ill 57-year-old whose death in 2018 led to new benefits guidelines
https://www.theguardian.com/society...ath-after-benefits-cut-loses-case-against-dwp
From 2015:
Call for publication of review into man who killed himself after benefits cut
UK government asked to publish review into case of Tim Salter, one of 60 investigations into suicides linked to benefit changes
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/11/publication-secret-review-benefits-cut-tim-salter
Thousands have died after being found fit for work, DWP figures show
Campaigners demand welfare overhaul after statistics reveal 2,380 people died between 2011 and 2014 shortly after being declared able to work
https://www.theguardian.com/society...ied-after-fit-for-work-assessment-dwp-figures
From 2014:
‘No one should die penniless and alone’: the victims of Britain’s harsh welfare sanctions
David Clapson was found dead last year after his benefits were stopped on the grounds that he wasn't taking the search for work seriously. He had an empty stomach, and just £3.44 to his name. Now thousands of other claimants are being left in similarly dire straits by tough new welfare sanctions
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/03/victims-britains-harsh-welfare-sanctions
All evidence that we are too generous with benefits, apparently.
Mirrors aren't cheap.
It’s virtually illegal to be English and proud
English folk are more than happy to join in the great festival of Guinness-drinking every March 17. But come April 23, nothing happens
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/23/its-virtually-illegal-to-be-english-and-proud/
English folk are more than happy to join in the great festival of Guinness-drinking every March 17. But come April 23, nothing happens
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/23/its-virtually-illegal-to-be-english-and-proud/
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2024/apr/24/gb-news-can-still-use-politicians-as-presenters-ofcom
Nigel Farage can host GB News show during election, says Ofcom
Media regulator says no clear consensus among British public to ban politicians presenting on news channels
And the funniest thing I've read today:
The public “felt personally well equipped to identify if a presenter might be trying to mislead them”, according to a focus group conducted by researchers at Ipsos
The irony goes off the charts.
Nigel Farage can host GB News show during election, says Ofcom
Media regulator says no clear consensus among British public to ban politicians presenting on news channels
And the funniest thing I've read today:
The public “felt personally well equipped to identify if a presenter might be trying to mislead them”, according to a focus group conducted by researchers at Ipsos
The irony goes off the charts.
I broadly agree, however I do wonder if the Tories have fecked themselves demographically for a generation.
Broadly speaking, the average voter adopts more right wing positions as they get older, while they accumulate wealth, aquire property and form a family. They have "assets" to conserve. For 20 & 30 year olds currently, budgets are tight, home ownership is often a dream and starting a family is being delayed because of the associated costs. For this generation, this will be the Tories legacy, while the older right wing voters slowly die off.
Labour will of course have no short term fix, but I can't help but think there will be everlasting resentment to the Tories for the above, much like there is for Thatcher. In 10, 20 years time people won't remember the confected culture war issue of today. They will remember how the Tories made their life much more difficult.
Well said.
The culture war nonsense is the crutch they're using as a desperate hail Mary, hoping it gives them some short term wins. In the long term I think they're resigned to being wiped out, so their own strategy on that front is to sabotage things to the extent the situation becomes untenable for the incoming Labour government, hoping voters are stupid enough to hold them culpable and hence flock back to the Tories in consequent election cycles.
A personality like Thatcher would win an election by a landslide in the political doldrums we have now, for either side.
I dont think the Tories will feel many long lasting effects. In 10 years Labour will be getting long in the tooth and the Tories should have a roster of fresh faces and ideas. People forget, and they grow up a bit as they leave their 20s behind. That leads to a more pragmatic view of politics.
I'm impressed. That last part is condescending even by your standards.
People do forget, but I do think the way the tories have savaged us all (especially the young) won’t be forgotten by a large number of people, with old ‘pragmatic’ tories dying off they will lose a huge amount of voters.
Disagree. People traditionally become more conservative because they become home owners, have children, build savings etc etc and it’s about protecting what they have. The Tories have gone a long way to fecking up that natural progression and more and more people in their 30s, 40s and beyond will have no natural inclination to become more conservative because they have no wealth to protect.
I’m nearing my 40s, a homeowner with children and savings and I have absolutely zero inclination to move to the right because I can see how damaging the lack of socialism has been to the foundations of this country. It’s about a few getting rich and the rest getting nothing. feck that and feck you.