Paul the Wolf
Full Member
UK still has its finger firmly on the self-destruct button.Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Last edited:
g = window.googletag || {}; googletag.cmd = googletag.cmd || []; window.googletag = googletag; googletag.cmd.push(function() { var interstitialSlot = googletag.defineOutOfPageSlot('/17085479/redcafe_gam_interstitial', googletag.enums.OutOfPageFormat.INTERSTITIAL); if (interstitialSlot) { interstitialSlot.addService(googletag.pubads()); } });
UK still has its finger firmly on the self-destruct button.Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
This is the bit that counts getting into Government.Getting into government with a huge majority because the country is protesting against the Tories, rather than getting into government on the merit of your own popularity and because the country believes in your policies and have granted you a mandate accordingly.
If Starmer does get in with a huge majority but ultimately Starmer and Labour are deeply unpopular, it will be completely unsustainable.
Currently they are the opposition and are being compared to a deeply unpopular government. As soon as they’re in government they’re held to their own standards and they begin to get polls on their own performance as a government and if they’re polling badly things will get ugly quickly.
Right but that’s where the problem lies and the entire point. You can’t achieve anything in one term let alone turn this country around from the disaster path the Tories have put it on.This is the bit that counts getting into Government.
With a large majority is the next bit, because it widens the options, popularity only comes into it when Starmer (or whoever) begins to roll out the policies. When the majority is small the range of policy options open is limited and the inherited condition from the previous government will weigh heavy.
I would expect to see Labour (realistically) canvasing on a two-term timetable, to make the headway required, this will be emphasised during the run up to the GE. It is imperative Starmer only promises what is possible for the first term, but can layout what will follow in a second term.
The wish for the country to rid itself of this present government is becoming increasingly palpable by the day, it therefore requires the Labour party to be circumspect in its approach, not trying to be popular with policies it knows it cannot achieve in one term, this is where the danger lies.
"Laying the groundwork" is what gets done.So while he spends the next 5 years or so laying the ground work but getting nothing actually done
Apart from all the other internal issues, the Rwanda bill get's passed he'll have some more work to do with legal challenges from the worldwide community , possible annulment of trade deals if the UK pull out of the ECHR and re-solving the Northern Ireland issue. One huge mess pounding the Uk from all sides and all self-inflicted. Starmer is not strong enough."Laying the groundwork" is what gets done.
Part of that 'laying the groundwork' will be the emergency measures he can take, to ease problems, but it will be limited.
However, fourteen years of misrule ; including major unplanned economic changes (because they didn't expect a 'leave' result) like @Paul the Wolf will tell you about Brexit; dealing with pandemics, spending billions on 'stop gap' measures that made some rich but the majority poorer, panicking actions over 'small boats', failure to tackle housing issues that have dragged on for more than 14 years, all this is groundwork that has to be done-over.
Headway will not be made until, the second term, telling us anything else is telling the country lies.
Thanks Paul can rely on you, but it's not all self inflicted, some were 'events' over which we had no control; however some Tory reaction to these events could be described as self inflicted... give you that!One huge mess pounding the Uk from all sides and all self-inflicted. Starmer is not strong enough.
Taking out whether this iteration of Labour actually want to do anything, I think the overhaul that's needed in most sectors is not insignificant so rushing into policies probably isn't the way to go. We've had over a decade of a party looking at things at a level no deeper than headline stats (hence blaming young people for not working, and blaming immigration for lack of jobs) rather than looking at underlying causes. Investing the money in the right places rather than just blaming people needs to be done, but it also needs doing carefully into the right areas otherwise we'll end up no better off.Right but that’s where the problem lies and the entire point. You can’t achieve anything in one term let alone turn this country around from the disaster path the Tories have put it on.
So you have a deeply unpopular Prime Minister that is only in power because the public is sick to death of the current Tories. He’s in power with no positive policies and only promises to do the same thing that the Tories have been doing for the last decade and a half. So while he spends the next 5 years or so laying the ground work but getting nothing actually done, the Tories are regrouping, the right wing media machine is going in hard on the Labour government and the public have the memories of goldfish have forgotten and forgiven the Tories and have once again been convinced that they are the ones to lead the county again with their tax cuts funded entirely by the groundwork Labour have laid over the last 5 years.
Rinse and repeat. The county is beyond saving.
Brexit was self-inflicted, the boats situation is self-inflicted by refusing legal routes. The handling of Covid was one of the worst in Europe. The Northern Ireland situation is self inflicted because of Brexit. The policies of the government are self-inflicted. Higher inflation than elsewhere is self-inflicted .Thanks Paul can rely on you, but it's not all self inflicted, some were 'events' over which we had no control; however some Tory reaction to these events could be described as self inflicted... give you that!
I think Starmer just might be made of stronger stuff, he has turned the public face of Labour around in double-quick time, you might be under estimating him, he just might turn out to be the man who speaks softly but carries a big stick
We will have to wait and see, I don't see how he can do much worse that the present lot.Starmer may use a big stick within his own party but on a national stage and certainly the international stage I just don't see him lasting very long.
It’s funny reading your posts admitting what a terrible job the Tories have done this last decade after you’ve just spent the last decade on here arguing all their points.We will have to wait and see, I don't see how he can do much worse that the present lot.
Britain may not carry the weight it once did, but the world is changing and Starmer will need to recognise the place we fit in the new order.
Which will take another turn if Trump gets back in the US and the EU continues to have trouble with the governments of certain countries like Hungary. I can see other leaders facing problems of their own especially in terms of Nationalistic parties (mainly on the right).
I suspect the test will be the GE outcome, if the polls are right and the Tories are facing melt-down, and Starmer has a large majority, he has a chance. However, with a small majority he will undoubtedly have any number of problems, those that currently exist, multiplied by internal wranglings within the Labour party with what remains of the far left.
With respect I think you ought to read my posts again.It’s funny reading your posts admitting what a terrible job the Tories have done this last decade after you’ve just spent the last decade on here arguing all their points.
We are not broke.Does it matter which Party is in Government? The Country is broke technically. Debt £2.65 Trillion, GDP £2.50 trillion. The Oil revenues squandered. The NHS and Social Services abused. The Wealthy, and here's where it gets heated, escaping paying their way for years by taking advantage of loopholes made by, well, the Wealthy. Wealthy to me is someone that can pay all their bills, have Holidays, savings and don't have to worry about energy costs. It would be nice if whoever was Governing the Country would do just that instead of trying to get each other sacked over some incident or other. At least Labour have an economist as shadow chancellor but then again so was Kwarteng and look what a mess he made. We need someone with the balls to sort things out and upset the establishment and the Wokes and I can't see Starmer or who ever will be leading the failing Tories doing that.
As a Grandparent, I do worry about what work will be available for my Grandchildren in ten plus years time. I wouldn't encourage them to do the University thing and have the debt hanging over them.
This makes interesting reading.They'll have no choice. The economy can't sustain the increasingly large numbers of young people getting signed off work. Almost a million since Covid. Whoever is in power will need to sort that situation out and quickly.
Exactly, if Starmer gets the massive majority it must not be wasted. The scale of thinking has to be on what will change the lives (move the dial) of the majority of the population. The 'Articles of War' on this need to be drawn up in the first term, the ground laid, etc. It won't be delivered in one term, but it can be defined and agreed. At the same time some emergency help will be needed, in supporting the existing welfare state, NHS, Education and where possible a start made on housing, but the big push will come in the second and hopefully third terms of a empowered Labour Government.That's the scale of thinking needed now.
Who exactly are the establishment and the Wokes? Sounds like a boy band or a group of petty criminals from the East End.Does it matter which Party is in Government? The Country is broke technically. Debt £2.65 Trillion, GDP £2.50 trillion. The Oil revenues squandered. The NHS and Social Services abused. The Wealthy, and here's where it gets heated, escaping paying their way for years by taking advantage of loopholes made by, well, the Wealthy. Wealthy to me is someone that can pay all their bills, have Holidays, savings and don't have to worry about energy costs. It would be nice if whoever was Governing the Country would do just that instead of trying to get each other sacked over some incident or other. At least Labour have an economist as shadow chancellor but then again so was Kwarteng and look what a mess he made. We need someone with the balls to sort things out and upset the establishment and the Wokes and I can't see Starmer or who ever will be leading the failing Tories doing that.
As a Grandparent, I do worry about what work will be available for my Grandchildren in ten plus years time. I wouldn't encourage them to do the University thing and have the debt hanging over them.
850,000 is the number I think since Covid. Some genuine, some not, but that doesn't really matter. It's a few billion extra on the welfare budget and a few billion less in tax take. It can't be ignored and one way or another those people need to be back working. To think Labour are going to get in and pretend there's nothing wrong is fanciful.This makes interesting reading.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...QQFnoECCcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1NYYp58Q9pf3oDqR3yJVyY
What do you think the Tory government over the last 15 years has done for the 'wokes'?Does it matter which Party is in Government? The Country is broke technically. Debt £2.65 Trillion, GDP £2.50 trillion. The Oil revenues squandered. The NHS and Social Services abused. The Wealthy, and here's where it gets heated, escaping paying their way for years by taking advantage of loopholes made by, well, the Wealthy. Wealthy to me is someone that can pay all their bills, have Holidays, savings and don't have to worry about energy costs. It would be nice if whoever was Governing the Country would do just that instead of trying to get each other sacked over some incident or other. At least Labour have an economist as shadow chancellor but then again so was Kwarteng and look what a mess he made. We need someone with the balls to sort things out and upset the establishment and the Wokes and I can't see Starmer or who ever will be leading the failing Tories doing that.
As a Grandparent, I do worry about what work will be available for my Grandchildren in ten plus years time. I wouldn't encourage them to do the University thing and have the debt hanging over them.
Ah, yes, 'the wokes'.Does it matter which Party is in Government? The Country is broke technically. Debt £2.65 Trillion, GDP £2.50 trillion. The Oil revenues squandered. The NHS and Social Services abused. The Wealthy, and here's where it gets heated, escaping paying their way for years by taking advantage of loopholes made by, well, the Wealthy. Wealthy to me is someone that can pay all their bills, have Holidays, savings and don't have to worry about energy costs. It would be nice if whoever was Governing the Country would do just that instead of trying to get each other sacked over some incident or other. At least Labour have an economist as shadow chancellor but then again so was Kwarteng and look what a mess he made. We need someone with the balls to sort things out and upset the establishment and the Wokes and I can't see Starmer or who ever will be leading the failing Tories doing that.
As a Grandparent, I do worry about what work will be available for my Grandchildren in ten plus years time. I wouldn't encourage them to do the University thing and have the debt hanging over them.
No, you misunderstand. He just wants the wokes to stop moaning about stuff.What do you think the Tory government over the last 15 years has done for the 'wokes'?
That's such a woke thing to sayIsn't it about time that the far-right nutjobs like Farage and Tice could actually tell someone who the establishment and the elite are?
It's about time some faceless EU bureaucrat stuck a bendy banana up their *****!That's such a woke thing to say
Agree.So, they're going to take medical decision-making away from trained medical professionals, whose role and job is to make people better, to people working for the Department of Work & Pensions, whose role and job is to reduce the number of people on benefits. Person X, who started with anxiety, but has been on a mental health waiting list for 9 months is now full-blown depressed and agoraphobic, will meet with the DWP officer who will rescind their 'sick note' so that they're then being forced in to work. They try it, exaccerbate their issue(s) and, because they've 'broken' the rules of their benefits, they lose financial support, and where does that end...
I can see this policy killing lots of people! Thankfully they won't be in government to actually enact something as cruel as this!
That piece of shit Sunak claims he's on a moral crusade - feck HIM! He's never had to claim a benefit in his life and he never will. If you're on such a moral fecking crusade how about:
Instead, you punch down on those who are medically vulnerable, trying their best to (literally) make it from day to day.
- You move to rejoin the EU so that medicine shortages aren't exaccerbated, so people can maintain their medical needs
- You move to rejoin the EU so that medical staff can freely move to the UK to work and fill the 170,000(ish) vacancies
- You pay people what they're fecking worth!
- You work to fund and staff mental / physical health provisions and things like CAMHS so people can be treated before a condition becomes untreatable
- You work to restart things like Sure Start so people can have social help to ease concerns that can develop into depression or MH conditions
- You work to regulate things like ultra-processed cheap food so people aren't forced to eat digestible poison that kills cells and clogs arteries
What a pathetic excuse for a human he is, never mind a politician!
feck him!
Mirrors aren't cheap.Isn't it about time that the far-right nutjobs like Farage and Tice could actually tell someone who the establishment and the elite are?
I broadly agree, however I do wonder if the Tories have fecked themselves demographically for a generation.Getting into government with a huge majority because the country is protesting against the Tories, rather than getting into government on the merit of your own popularity and because the country believes in your policies and have granted you a mandate accordingly.
If Starmer does get in with a huge majority but ultimately Starmer and Labour are deeply unpopular, it will be completely unsustainable.
Currently they are the opposition and are being compared to a deeply unpopular government. As soon as they’re in government they’re held to their own standards and they begin to get polls on their own performance as a government and if they’re polling badly things will get ugly quickly.
Well said.I broadly agree, however I do wonder if the Tories have fecked themselves demographically for a generation.
Broadly speaking, the average voter adopts more right wing positions as they get older, while they accumulate wealth, aquire property and form a family. They have "assets" to conserve. For 20 & 30 year olds currently, budgets are tight, home ownership is often a dream and starting a family is being delayed because of the associated costs. For this generation, this will be the Tories legacy, while the older right wing voters slowly die off.
Labour will of course have no short term fix, but I can't help but think there will be everlasting resentment to the Tories for the above, much like there is for Thatcher. In 10, 20 years time people won't remember the confected culture war issue of today. They will remember how the Tories made their life much more difficult.
A personality like Thatcher would win an election by a landslide in the political doldrums we have now, for either side.I broadly agree, however I do wonder if the Tories have fecked themselves demographically for a generation.
Broadly speaking, the average voter adopts more right wing positions as they get older, while they accumulate wealth, aquire property and form a family. They have "assets" to conserve. For 20 & 30 year olds currently, budgets are tight, home ownership is often a dream and starting a family is being delayed because of the associated costs. For this generation, this will be the Tories legacy, while the older right wing voters slowly die off.
Labour will of course have no short term fix, but I can't help but think there will be everlasting resentment to the Tories for the above, much like there is for Thatcher. In 10, 20 years time people won't remember the confected culture war issue of today. They will remember how the Tories made their life much more difficult.
I'm impressed. That last part is condescending even by your standards.A personality like Thatcher would win an election by a landslide in the political doldrums we have now, for either side.
I dont think the Tories will feel many long lasting effects. In 10 years Labour will be getting long in the tooth and the Tories should have a roster of fresh faces and ideas. People forget, and they grow up a bit as they leave their 20s behind. That leads to a more pragmatic view of politics.
People do forget, but I do think the way the tories have savaged us all (especially the young) won’t be forgotten by a large number of people, with old ‘pragmatic’ tories dying off they will lose a huge amount of voters.A personality like Thatcher would win an election by a landslide in the political doldrums we have now, for either side.
I dont think the Tories will feel many long lasting effects. In 10 years Labour will be getting long in the tooth and the Tories should have a roster of fresh faces and ideas. People forget, and they grow up a bit as they leave their 20s behind. That leads to a more pragmatic view of politics.
Disagree. People traditionally become more conservative because they become home owners, have children, build savings etc etc and it’s about protecting what they have. The Tories have gone a long way to fecking up that natural progression and more and more people in their 30s, 40s and beyond will have no natural inclination to become more conservative because they have no wealth to protect.A personality like Thatcher would win an election by a landslide in the political doldrums we have now, for either side.
I dont think the Tories will feel many long lasting effects. In 10 years Labour will be getting long in the tooth and the Tories should have a roster of fresh faces and ideas. People forget, and they grow up a bit as they leave their 20s behind. That leads to a more pragmatic view of politics.