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decorativeed

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I think we need to do all those things, but first and foremost we need to build many more houses in the places people want to live. Eg if that means London becomes a skyscraper city, then so be it.
But what will prevent the skyscraper cities becoming simply a collection of stacks of investments owned by overseas landlords extracting the wealth of those people who need to live there? There's zero sign that any government wants to do anything to address that issue.

Prioritising the build first does not go any way to solving these problems and is likely to exacerbate others.
 

decorativeed

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Actually it's the opposite, it's the trying to tax landlords out of existence that has increased rents by about 10% a year since they started. We now realise the market functioned, just about, before they started getting involved. Now it's well and truly fecked.

The government needs to understand private rentals are a key part of the housing market and not something to be eradicated.
Yes, you're right with your first point, and I had considered the fact that landlords will most likely pass on any more modest tax on to the tenant. That's why we need a more radical solution. Rent controls/caps being a first step, perhaps.

I disagree with the second and think that there should be limits on how much housing an individual or company can stockpile.
 

Jericholyte2

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Actually it's the opposite, it's the trying to tax landlords out of existence that has increased rents by about 10% a year since they started. We now realise the market functioned, just about, before they started getting involved. Now it's well and truly fecked.

The government needs to understand private rentals are a key part of the housing market and not something to be eradicated.
Not necessarily a taxing issue, it's more about the rise of Air BnB and similar.

Private landlords can make far more profit on their property listing it for short-term rentals through Air BnB than they could via the traditional rental market. So more 'stock' leaves the rental market to the short-term letting, meaning that demand increases, meaning an increase in rental rates.
 

nickm

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But what will prevent the skyscraper cities becoming simply a collection of stacks of investments owned by overseas landlords extracting the wealth of those people who need to live there? There's zero sign that any government wants to do anything to address that issue.

Prioritising the build first does not go any way to solving these problems and is likely to exacerbate others.
I don't have a problem with limiting the amount of "rental investment" that an overseas buyer can make. Those are details. The basic problem is lack of properties in the first place, which governments like to try to then "solve" with stupid financial approaches that either subsidises prices or worsens them, but doesn't actually address supply.
 
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nickm

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Yes, you're right with your first point, and I had considered the fact that landlords will most likely pass on any more modest tax on to the tenant. That's why we need a more radical solution. Rent controls/caps being a first step, perhaps.
I think there is a lot of evidence that price controls don't work (via rent controls). Subsidies don't work (via Help to Buy). Both those are just ways to not to actually address the problem, which is a lack of supply of houses. Just build more houses! Build a million a year for the next 5 years. Think of all the problems it'd solve.
 

nickm

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But why not show us the evidence that backs up his statement and leave us without doubt?
Because it's just a twitter thread, his evidence is in the reports from the Resolution Foundation, which is his organisation. I put a link to one in FYI.
 

decorativeed

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I think there is a lot of evidence that price controls don't work (via rent controls). Subsidies don't work (via Help to Buy). Both those are just ways to not to actually address the problem, which is a lack of supply of houses. Just build more houses! Build a million a year for the next 5 years. Think of all the problems it'd solve.
But you're not thinking of the massive problems that can cause, when we usually have developments that concentrate soley on housing, so that local amenities and roads on the outskirts that are already at capacity get overwhelmed. And because of this, locals object to developments and nothing happens for years. And this is on top of the loss of green spaces and damage to the environment.

We have almost 300,000 empty houses in the UK. Let's start by bringing those back into usage.
 

decorativeed

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Sounds like you are advocating for the government to build.... Albeit a ton of care / retirement homes?

I agree the govt needs needs to make it far easier to build, so the market can supply the housing there is clearly the demand for.
I'd say that bringing the existing care homes and similar facilities into public ownership and removing the profit from the chain would probably be sufficient as a first step.
 

decorativeed

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Because it's just a twitter thread, his evidence is in the reports from the Resolution Foundation, which is his organisation. I put a link to one in FYI.
I read it and he seems to be making totally different points, mainly about the cost, size and quality of our housing, relative to other countries and nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of the ownership of the properties. We already know British houses are smaller and older than those in the US etc.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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Actually it's the opposite, it's the trying to tax landlords out of existence that has increased rents by about 10% a year since they started. We now realise the market functioned, just about, before they started getting involved. Now it's well and truly fecked.

The government needs to understand private rentals are a key part of the housing market and not something to be eradicated.
Why are they? And to what end? How many private rented homes should there be?

I believe zero. I realise that’s unrealistic. But I also can’t see an argument for anyone having a portfolio of properties.

What circumstances can you outline to support a huge private rental market?

Asking in good faith.
 

nickm

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But you're not thinking of the massive problems that can cause, when we usually have developments that concentrate soley on housing, so that local amenities and roads on the outskirts that are already at capacity get overwhelmed. And because of this, locals object to developments and nothing happens for years. And this is on top of the loss of green spaces and damage to the environment.

We have almost 300,000 empty houses in the UK. Let's start by bringing those back into usage.
So, build the amenities as well. 300k houses is a small number, maybe 10 to 15x less than the number needed, and chances are many aren't even where people need to be. It is not a serious response to the scale of the problem

And yes, it may have environmental impacts, but we also have a lot of cities that could be considerably denser than they are now.

China built a bunch of new cities from scratch and the lib dems are celebrating building a new staircase at Surbiton station.

Towns and cities change.
 
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nickm

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I'd say that bringing the existing care homes and similar facilities into public ownership and removing the profit from the chain would probably be sufficient as a first step.
If you are going to solve the problem of care for the elderly then let's focus on that, that's big enough all by itself.

The solution to the housing crisis isn't going to be about stacking millions of 80 year olds in government run care homes, and flogging their houses to people who still won't be able to afford them.
 

Don't Kill Bill

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Proposed water charges,


How much do companies want to increase their bills by?
  • Southern Water - 91% increase to £915 a year by 2030
  • Thames Water - 59% to £749
  • Hafren Dyfredwy - 56% to £676
  • Severn Trent - 50% to £657
  • Wessex Water - 50% to £822
  • Yorkshire Water - 46% to £682
  • Dŵr Cymru - 43% to £702
  • United Utilities - 38% to £666
  • South East Water - 35% £330
  • Pennon - 33% to £644
  • Portsmouth Water - 31% to £157
  • SES - 30% to £315
  • Anglian Water - 29% to £682
  • Northumbrian Water and Essex & Suffolk Water - 26% to £530
  • Affinity Water 25% to £294
  • South Staffs & Cambridge Water - 24% to £221
Source: Consumer Council for Water
Estimate are for average bills. Costs will vary depending on a property's rateable value




So like........ Southern Water - 91% increase to £915
South East Water - 35% £330

Dŵr Cymru - 43% to £702
Northumbrian Water and Essex & Suffolk Water - 26% to £530

Hard to know what to say.
 

Pexbo

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Proposed water charges,


How much do companies want to increase their bills by?
  • Southern Water - 91% increase to £915 a year by 2030
  • Thames Water - 59% to £749
  • Hafren Dyfredwy - 56% to £676
  • Severn Trent - 50% to £657
  • Wessex Water - 50% to £822
  • Yorkshire Water - 46% to £682
  • Dŵr Cymru - 43% to £702
  • United Utilities - 38% to £666
  • South East Water - 35% £330
  • Pennon - 33% to £644
  • Portsmouth Water - 31% to £157
  • SES - 30% to £315
  • Anglian Water - 29% to £682
  • Northumbrian Water and Essex & Suffolk Water - 26% to £530
  • Affinity Water 25% to £294
  • South Staffs & Cambridge Water - 24% to £221
Source: Consumer Council for Water
Estimate are for average bills. Costs will vary depending on a property's rateable value




So like........ Southern Water - 91% increase to £915
South East Water - 35% £330

Dŵr Cymru - 43% to £702
Northumbrian Water and Essex & Suffolk Water - 26% to £530

Hard to know what to say.
By all means let them, as long as they are prepared to commit to a 20 freeze on dividends. I wonder if their shareholders will agree with the price hikes then?
 

decorativeed

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If you are going to solve the problem of care for the elderly then let's focus on that, that's big enough all by itself.

The solution to the housing crisis isn't going to be about stacking millions of 80 year olds in government run care homes, and flogging their houses to people who still won't be able to afford them.
But why would people be able to magically afford new build homes that will be priced at market value?
 

Berbasbullet

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Proposed water charges,


How much do companies want to increase their bills by?
  • Southern Water - 91% increase to £915 a year by 2030
  • Thames Water - 59% to £749
  • Hafren Dyfredwy - 56% to £676
  • Severn Trent - 50% to £657
  • Wessex Water - 50% to £822
  • Yorkshire Water - 46% to £682
  • Dŵr Cymru - 43% to £702
  • United Utilities - 38% to £666
  • South East Water - 35% £330
  • Pennon - 33% to £644
  • Portsmouth Water - 31% to £157
  • SES - 30% to £315
  • Anglian Water - 29% to £682
  • Northumbrian Water and Essex & Suffolk Water - 26% to £530
  • Affinity Water 25% to £294
  • South Staffs & Cambridge Water - 24% to £221
Source: Consumer Council for Water
Estimate are for average bills. Costs will vary depending on a property's rateable value




So like........ Southern Water - 91% increase to £915
South East Water - 35% £330

Dŵr Cymru - 43% to £702
Northumbrian Water and Essex & Suffolk Water - 26% to £530

Hard to know what to say.
Are all these fecking bastards (all utility companies) trying to bankrupt us all?! I can barely afford to do anything anymore and I am certainly better at managing money than most.

It’s all taking the fecking piss and actually living these days is becoming so hard! Can’t even afford to holiday in the UK as that has become unaffordable.
 

Mr Pigeon

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Proposed water charges,


How much do companies want to increase their bills by?
  • Southern Water - 91% increase to £915 a year by 2030
  • Thames Water - 59% to £749
  • Hafren Dyfredwy - 56% to £676
  • Severn Trent - 50% to £657
  • Wessex Water - 50% to £822
  • Yorkshire Water - 46% to £682
  • Dŵr Cymru - 43% to £702
  • United Utilities - 38% to £666
  • South East Water - 35% £330
  • Pennon - 33% to £644
  • Portsmouth Water - 31% to £157
  • SES - 30% to £315
  • Anglian Water - 29% to £682
  • Northumbrian Water and Essex & Suffolk Water - 26% to £530
  • Affinity Water 25% to £294
  • South Staffs & Cambridge Water - 24% to £221
Source: Consumer Council for Water
Estimate are for average bills. Costs will vary depending on a property's rateable value




So like........ Southern Water - 91% increase to £915
South East Water - 35% £330

Dŵr Cymru - 43% to £702
Northumbrian Water and Essex & Suffolk Water - 26% to £530

Hard to know what to say.
What's the alternative? Nationalised water? It wouldn't work, the water quality would be worse, the waste dumping just as bad, and the costs even higher thanks to public service waffling and the whole jobs for mates attitude those folk have.

Don't believe me? Just look at places where water is nationalised like Northern Ireland or Scotland, and look at how bad their services are... Oh, wait. They're not actually that bad... Well, in that case just look at how wasteful they are, and how their charges are going up this year by a mammoth... 4 to 8%......ah feck.

I'm off to drink some nationalised tap water. I bet it looks and tastes like shit.... Yum. Dammit again.
 

mitChley

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What's the alternative? Nationalised water? It wouldn't work, the water quality would be worse, the waste dumping just as bad, and the costs even higher thanks to public service waffling and the whole jobs for mates attitude those folk have.

Don't believe me? Just look at places where water is nationalised like Northern Ireland or Scotland, and look at how bad their services are... Oh, wait. They're not actually that bad... Well, in that case just look at how wasteful they are, and how their charges are going up this year by a mammoth... 4 to 8%......ah feck.

I'm off to drink some nationalised tap water. I bet it looks and tastes like shit.... Yum. Dammit again.
Had me in the first half ngl :devil:
 

Don't Kill Bill

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What's the alternative? Nationalised water? It wouldn't work, the water quality would be worse, the waste dumping just as bad, and the costs even higher thanks to public service waffling and the whole jobs for mates attitude those folk have.

Don't believe me? Just look at places where water is nationalised like Northern Ireland or Scotland, and look at how bad their services are... Oh, wait. They're not actually that bad... Well, in that case just look at how wasteful they are, and how their charges are going up this year by a mammoth... 4 to 8%......ah feck.

I'm off to drink some nationalised tap water. I bet it looks and tastes like shit.... Yum. Dammit again.
Of course, Thats how you have the money in Scotland for this....


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ceqq04v75p9o


Its been a weird days news today.
 

That'sHernandez

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Not necessarily a taxing issue, it's more about the rise of Air BnB and similar.

Private landlords can make far more profit on their property listing it for short-term rentals through Air BnB than they could via the traditional rental market. So more 'stock' leaves the rental market to the short-term letting, meaning that demand increases, meaning an increase in rental rates.
Not to mention in university towns turning houses into house shares or converting them into flats forces families out of city centres
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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So… The Tories have been in power for 5000 days.

In that time, they’ve added £300m to the National Debt. Per Day.

Anyone voting Tory is thick as feck.
 

TwoSheds

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Or to put it another way, we have accrued twice as much debt in the last 14 years than we did in the previous 316.
But you need to account for the ludicrous inflation rate in that time! (That they caused)
 

decorativeed

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Because we build at such a level that prices begin to come down.
Total pie in the sky stuff. Since 2010, about 2,000,000 new homes have been built in the UK. In the same period the average price has increased from £160k to £260k - over 60%. How many millions more will we have to build to get the prices to come down?
 

4bars

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Your math doesn’t math.

We already have more properties than people. It’s who owns it, which ones are filled and by whom that’s the problem.
Thats the thing. After the 2008 debacle, I am not saying that this is happening to the UK, but in the US trust funds are investing in real state by the billions. You can't compete and they have a recurrent revenue at your expenses. That is why not only utilities should be nationalized but the housing.

It should not be a business because is a necessity.
 

F-Red

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Your math doesn’t math.

We already have more properties than people. It’s who owns it, which ones are filled and by whom that’s the problem.
More properties than people? The latest statistics I could find was that there was 25m dwellings as of 2022, with a population of 67m.

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...welling-stock-estimates-england-31-march-2022

The issue is as much as building the right type of homes, specifically social housing, as well as a scheme for building new homes.

It’s a simple supply and demand market, so the pricing will only start to decline once supply outstrips the demand.
 

rimaldo

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i think once you start letting people own their own homes, they’ll soon want better lives for themselves and their children. that’s only going to come at shareholder expense. i bet none of you even thought about those poor shareholders.
 

Dr. StrangeHate

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i think once you start letting people own their own homes, they’ll soon want better lives for themselves and their children. that’s only going to come at shareholder expense. i bet none of you even thought about those poor shareholders.
On top of this, I just heard a sickening statistic. The UK has only 55 billionaires compared to 813 in the US. This inequality shouldn't be allowed to stand.
 

Buster15

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So… The Tories have been in power for 5000 days.

In that time, they’ve added £300m to the National Debt. Per Day.

Anyone voting Tory is thick as feck.
This added to the ever increasing list of failures.
Like not enough prisons.
Like all the money that was going to be saved by scrapping HS2 will be used to fix all the pot holes.
I could go on but I just don't have enough time.
 

11101

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Yes, you're right with your first point, and I had considered the fact that landlords will most likely pass on any more modest tax on to the tenant. That's why we need a more radical solution. Rent controls/caps being a first step, perhaps.

I disagree with the second and think that there should be limits on how much housing an individual or company can stockpile.
Everything you can think of has an unintended consequence.

Rent caps - landlords sell en masse, house prices crash and with it the economy, government has to step in.
More tax on landlords - just gets passed down to tenants.
Subsidies - cocks up just about everything it touches.
Controls on landlords - alienates higher risk tenants and forces them into the hands of unscrupulous landlords who don't follow the rules.


I think the two big fixes are an extreme tax on foreign property ownership and penalties for empty houses. Taxing only foreign ownership doesn't pass the cost on to tenants because most of the market doesn't have to bear it and empty houses/holiday lets are mostly outside what is meant by private rentals. But mostly not do what the government is always best at, pulling the ladder up. Penalise the people who have already done it not the ones still trying to do it.


Why are they? And to what end? How many private rented homes should there be?

I believe zero. I realise that’s unrealistic. But I also can’t see an argument for anyone having a portfolio of properties.

What circumstances can you outline to support a huge private rental market?

Asking in good faith.
Unless the government builds a few million council houses (where, how are they paid for, what happens to property prices and by extension UK economy) then they fill a need. People must live somewhere and not everybody can buy/wants to buy. If you kill the private rental market there is nowhere for them to go and what does remain multiplies in price.

If you argue that nobody should have more than one house and therefore there is enough to go around, then you can blame the government for that one not being viable. When Gordon Brown screwed private pensions people turned to buy to lets to supplement the inadequate state pension. Get rid of that and the government is going to have to pay for all those people's retirements or risk losing 3 million votes.
 

Mogget

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Everything you can think of has an unintended consequence.

Rent caps - landlords sell en masse, house prices crash and with it the economy, government has to step in.
More tax on landlords - just gets passed down to tenants.
Subsidies - cocks up just about everything it touches.
Controls on landlords - alienates higher risk tenants and forces them into the hands of unscrupulous landlords who don't follow the rules.
If your economy crashes when the people hoarding houses are forced to sell them to the people who actually need houses.. maybe it's a pretty shitty economy that needs changing?