Westminster Politics

[Jippy]

Outrage as Charles doesn't completely sweep his family's massive slavery links under the carpet.

RICHARD KAY: I fear King Charles' well-meaning gesture to look into the relationship between the monarchy and the slave trade could be an act of folly that only serves to boost republicanism for decades

For years now, it has been fashionable for governments and politicians to apologise for crimes committed in the past.

The Royal Family, however, has remained impervious to this modern affliction. Not any more: Now the King has climbed aboard the self-flagellating bandwagon.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...aning-gesture-act-folly.html#article-11947551

 

[Mogget]

Really?

After all the accusations from Tories about Labour being on the side of paedophiles, grooming gangs, criminals and Jimmy Saville, THIS is too much for you?

I thought Labour are meant to be an alternative to the Tories?

If this current version of Labour is willing to do exactly what the Tories do to get into power, how are we supposed to believe they're actually going to improve the country?

What evidence is there to show this Labour will not be just more of the same corruption and hate we've had in the last 13 years?

 

[Jericholyte2]

I thought Labour are meant to be an alternative to the Tories?

If this current version of Labour is willing to do exactly what the Tories do to get into power, how are we supposed to believe they're actually going to improve the country?

What evidence is there to show this Labour will not be just more of the same corruption and hate we've had in the last 13 years?

The fact that whenever there’s been a whiff of scandal about a Labour MP they’ve had the whip removed, no delays, no whataboutism, they’re out. Compare that to Conservatives with Owen Paterson where they tried to change the Ministerial Code, Pincher where Boris tried to sweep it under the carpet, that one watching porn in the Commons where they tried to minimalise it. Labour is showing it’s holding its MPs to account.

They’re stating facts. Yes it’s blunt but it needs to be. Tories yell from the rooftops about Labour supporting paedophiles, criminal gangs etc without any facts and Labour have relied with a factual response.

As we say, it’s blunt, but I feel necessary.

 

[Sweet Square]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[dumbo]

They’re stating facts. Yes it’s blunt but it needs to be. Tories yell from the rooftops about Labour supporting paedophiles, criminal gangs etc without any facts and Labour have relied with a factual response.

As we say, it’s blunt, but I feel necessary.

The headline claim is that Rishi Sunak does not think that adults convicted of sexually assaulting children should go to prison.

You can claim facts and feelings and blunt truths all you like but the main hook of the advert is a fecking absurd claim.

Just because Labour HQ and Keirdo have shown themselves fecking desperate to orientate themselves within the bearings from a Tory moral compass, that doesn't suddenly make their shitty behaviours and less shitty. Being a dickhead is not a relative state.

 

[Jericholyte2]

The headline claim is that Rishi Sunak does not think that adults convicted of sexually assaulting children should go to prison.

You can claim facts and feelings and blunt truths all you like but the main hook of the advert is a fecking absurd claim.

Just because Labour HQ and Keirdo have shown themselves fecking desperate to orientate themselves within the bearings from a Tory moral compass, that doesn't suddenly make their shitty behaviours and less shitty. Being a dickhead is not a relative state.

It’s relaying the performance of the government to the leader of said party. Take for example only this week a 21yr old who raped a 13yr old was let off without prison time because he was 17 when he did it with no governmental outrage about it.

It just screams of the moral hypocrisy of the media and the country in general, the Tories publish something like this, and ‘it’s just what they do. It’s their raison d’être.’ and they win more elections.

Labour dips their toe in and suddenly it’s crass, uncouth, and bad form, and then becomes a reason to not elect them.

If something like this makes you doubt Labour won’t be any better than the Tories then there’s no help for this country.

 

[Cloudface]

The ad is definitely not something I'd go for, whether it works or not. But considering Sunak regularly squeals in the House of Commons that Labour supports sex trafficking and people smugglers because they say the Rwanda plan is garbage, the outrage is a bit rich.

I imagine this is a response to Sunak and Braverman doing the media rounds claiming brown people are getting away with child abuse due to PC/woke culture. That the ad at least puts the responsibility on the PM and Home Sec is better than that at least.

 

[Mart1974]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Fluctuation0161]

It’s relaying the performance of the government to the leader of said party. Take for example only this week a 21yr old who raped a 13yr old was let off without prison time because he was 17 when he did it with no governmental outrage about it.

It just screams of the moral hypocrisy of the media and the country in general, the Tories publish something like this, and ‘it’s just what they do. It’s their raison d’être.’ and they win more elections.

Labour dips their toe in and suddenly it’s crass, uncouth, and bad form, and then becomes a reason to not elect them.

If something like this makes you doubt Labour won’t be any better than the Tories then there’s no help for this country.

Feel free to outline the massive differences between this Labour and the Tories? Other than not having Cruella in the party.

 

[ZupZup]

The fact that whenever there’s been a whiff of scandal about a Labour MP they’ve had the whip removed, no delays, no whataboutism, they’re out.

This isn’t even true if you follow things closely. Labour nowadays use the disciplinary procedures purely as a factional weapon to attack the left in their own party, if a vague opportunity presents itself. They certainly don’t have zero tolerance for their own faction. You just have to look at Neil Coyle as an example.

 

[Jericholyte2]

Feel free to outline the massive differences between this Labour and the Tories? Other than not having Cruella in the party.

Supporting extension of FSM program
Pushed for windfall taxes and expansion of them
Looking to go against North Sea drilling
Support of ‘good faith’ negotiations with public sector workers.

If you don’t think that this potential Labour government would at least try to improve things from the cesspool that 13yrs of this governing Party has left is in, then I can’t really help you.

Admittedly I’d like him to be stronger on closer alignment with / rejoining EU but I also know why, politically, he can’t touch that yet.

 

[Mart1974]

The Tories have spent the last 13 years slandering every Labour leader and issuing culture war and policy attack messages wherever they can. You have blokes like Guilis and Anderson who cannot get through an interview without attacking Labour or Starmer. Labour put out a single attack tweet and its all "what about kinder fairer politics " and "this us unacceptable "

Get in the fecking sea the lot of you.

 

[Bobade]

The Tories have spent the last 13 years slandering every Labour leader and issuing culture war and policy attack messages wherever they can. You have blokes like Guilis and Anderson who cannot get through an interview without attacking Labour or Starmer. Labour put out a single attack tweet and its all "what about kinder fairer politics " and "this us unacceptable "

Get in the fecking sea the lot of you.

So I see the tories doing that and I think "how pathetic" but when my own side (if that's actually what Labour are nowadays) do the same thing, I'm supposed to think, "oh well done guys you've laid one on them there"? Well, i don't. I just think it's a pathetic argument designed to appeal to the lowest possible base.

 

[Jericholyte2]

The Tories have spent the last 13 years slandering every Labour leader and issuing culture war and policy attack messages wherever they can. You have blokes like Guilis and Anderson who cannot get through an interview without attacking Labour or Starmer. Labour put out a single attack tweet and its all "what about kinder fairer politics " and "this us unacceptable "

Get in the fecking sea the lot of you.

100% this!

Labour cannot fix everything, we are so broken as a society and an economic state that they’ll perform miracles if they even manage to successfully slow the rot that this Tory shambles has created.

But then we have ideological purists (of which I used to be a member) who are seemingly willing to keep Tories in power because Labour won’t promise a return to the EU, magically hire 200k more NHS staff and sort out every issue with the flick of a magic wand!

 

[golden_blunder]

Re Labour, until there is a better option, get in there and vote this Tory party, their sleaze, corruption, lies, disinformation and arrogance into oblivion

 

[Pexbo]

The Tories have spent the last 13 years slandering every Labour leader and issuing culture war and policy attack messages wherever they can. You have blokes like Guilis and Anderson who cannot get through an interview without attacking Labour or Starmer. Labour put out a single attack tweet and its all "what about kinder fairer politics " and "this us unacceptable "

Get in the fecking sea the lot of you.

You’re completely missing the point. We want to be able to support a political party that doesn’t act like the conservatives. It’s not about tribalism and saying “it’s ok because it’s our side” it’s about basic decency. What’s the point in supporting labour if we get a reskinned Tory party?

 

[Frosty]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

So not only an objectionable ad, but really stupid too.

 

[DavelinaJolie]

You’re completely missing the point. We want to be able to support a political party that doesn’t act like the conservatives. It’s not about tribalism and saying “it’s ok because it’s our side” it’s about basic decency. What’s the point in supporting labour if we get a reskinned Tory party?

Exactly. This kind of shit is the gutter politics I find it hard to support, I want the people leading the country to be better than this. Nuanced discussion? Nah, just basically call Sunak a rapist enabler.

 

[Compton22]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Not saying its right, but the thing that gets me is that Tories make unsubstantiated claims about Labour and Labour politicians all the time and are rarely called out for it. As soon as Labour do it, they MUST prove their claims and be asked if they stand by them.

Sunak says Labour support criminal gangs, human traffickers etc. all the time in PMQ's with no evidence whatsoever and no one bats an eyelid

 

[Jericholyte2]

“You know the problem with British politics right now? Labour!”

It’s such a joke, for 13yrs the Tories have been pissing on us all and telling us it’s raining!

They got the election in 2010, they pushed austerity on us, then they got Brexit, then they got Boris, then Lettuce with her ‘real Tory budget’ that blew 30bn out of our economy, now they have Sunak.

They scammed their way through the pandemic, lining the pockets of their mates whilst letting us all fecking die. But Labour made one shitty attack ad so they’re all just the fecking same so let’s stick around with those pissing on us and prove that we’re happy to let them off the hook no matter what they do to us!

 

[golden_blunder]

You’re completely missing the point. We want to be able to support a political party that doesn’t act like the conservatives. It’s not about tribalism and saying “it’s ok because it’s our side” it’s about basic decency. What’s the point in supporting labour if we get a reskinned Tory party?

Personally I’d vote the Tories into oblivion first, show them they lying and cheating is not acceptable. If that means labour get in so be it. Hopefully by the time a next GE comes around they have either pulled their socks up or there is a workable alternative

but I certainly wouldn’t leave this shower of Tories in power just because

 

[DavelinaJolie]

Personally I’d vote the Tories into oblivion first, show them they lying and cheating is not acceptable. If that means labour get in so be it. Hopefully by the time a next GE comes around they have either pulled their socks up or there is a workable alternative

but I certainly wouldn’t leave this shower of Tories in power just because

If you reward shitty beheviour there's no incentive for them to change next time, is there?

 

[Jericholyte2]

So because of a tweet we let the Tories off the hook for 13yrs of ‘shitty behaviour’?

 

[cafecillos]

I generally agree with those who are against holding their noses while voting, and it's actually a very interesting debate no matter how sure people pretend to be about their own stance. The thing now though is that we are not talking about "shitty behaviour", we are talking about a government and a party who are actively and purposely destroying the country. This needs to be absolutely clear before people make their decision.

 

[Counterfactual]

I can't stand it when a politician uses "clearly" when what they say is impenetrable bollocks. It's bloody Orwellian newspeak.

 

[DavelinaJolie]

So because of a tweet we let the Tories off the hook for 13yrs of ‘shitty behaviour’?

This line of thinking has been amply discussed in the other thread.

 

[Jericholyte2]

This line of thinking has been amply discussed in the other thread.

I know, but when people spout shite like that it needs a reply.

You’ll let the Tories destroy the NHS, shovel shit in our waterways, pull billions out from our pockets to their donors, but Labour make one crass ad and suddenly it proves their absolutely no different.

It’s pathetic & simply showing the gaslighting is working!

 

[golden_blunder]

If you reward shitty beheviour there's no incentive for them to change next time, is there?

So you’re ok to let one of the worst collections of individuals in the history of the country to continue in power?

 

[Member 125398]

So you’re ok to let one of the worst collections of individuals in the history of the country to continue in power?

 

[DavelinaJolie]

I know, but when people spout shite like that it needs a reply.

You’ll let the Tories destroy the NHS, shovel shit in our waterways, pull billions out from our pockets to their donors, but Labour make one crass ad and suddenly it proves their absolutely no different.

It’s pathetic & simply showing the gaslighting is working!

The people who enable the Tories are the people that vote for them, instead of getting angry at the people moving away from labour either call out the shitty behaviour of the Labour party that is causing it, or the people that vote for the Tories and actively damage the country. If you want to endorse what Labour are doing, go for it, that's your prerogative.

 

[DavelinaJolie]

So you’re ok to let one of the worst collections of individuals in the history of the country to continue in power?

See above.

 

[DanH]

I'd rather the Conservatives out, to be honest.

 

[Jericholyte2]

The people who enable the Tories are the people that vote for them, instead of getting angry at the people moving away from labour either call out the shitty behaviour of the Labour party that is causing it, or the people that vote for the Tories and actively damage the country. If you want to endorse what Labour are doing, go for it, that's your prerogative.

If that helps you sleep at night then go right ahead, but unless you’re tactically voting to oust your Tory MP then splitting the vote will only help then remain in government.

They won’t give a shit how it happens, so whilst they get another 5yrs of fecking our country dry, I guess you’ll be able to hold your head up high because you didn’t vote Labour, because of a crass advert.

 

[DavelinaJolie]

If that helps you sleep at night then go right ahead, but unless you’re tactically voting to oust your Tory MP then splitting the vote will only help then remain in government.

They won’t give a shit how it happens, so whilst they get another 5yrs of fecking our country dry, I guess you’ll be able to hold your head up high because you didn’t vote Labour, because of a crass advert.

No one gives a shit how they win.

The fact that instead of trying to find ways to encourage people to vote for Labour, or encourage Labour to be more appealing, you're on a forum trying to guilt trip and shame people into voting on them should be a big fecking neon sign for you, but apparently it isn't.

 

[Jericholyte2]

No one gives a shit how they win.

The fact that instead of trying to find ways to encourage people to vote for Labour, or encourage Labour to be more appealing, you're on a forum trying to guilt trip and shame people into voting on them should be a big fecking neon sign for you, but apparently it isn't.

I’m fecking desperate to boot out these corrupt Tories from office!!!

I’d love for Labour to be better than Starmer right now but they aren’t.

Unfortunately they’re the only viable option in this FPTP two-party system. So you have two options:

- believe that a party headed by a former head of the CPS will have more integrity than the incumbent government
- decide that you’re happy for the Tories to win again as long as you can hold your head up high and say you voted for a party that had no earthly chance of gaining power

Again, I’d love for Labour to be the most honourable version they’ve ever been, but in this climate I’ll take what we have.

I’ve offered policy that they’ve offered / are offering and it gets turned around by those with bad faith, and the suggestion that their holding MPs to account is some crazed attempt to purge the left out of it.

If you can’t see that a party that offers more beneficial policy & holds their MPs to greater account is better than this horrific government that’s looked to tear away our workers and human rights, then I’m done with you.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Supporting extension of FSM program
Pushed for windfall taxes and expansion of them
Looking to go against North Sea drilling
Support of ‘good faith’ negotiations with public sector workers.

If you don’t think that this potential Labour government would at least try to improve things from the cesspool that 13yrs of this governing Party has left is in, then I can’t really help you.

Admittedly I’d like him to be stronger on closer alignment with / rejoining EU but I also know why, politically, he can’t touch that yet.

Starmer is a proven liar with a track record as bad as Boris Johnson. He reneged on his 10 pledges for Labour leadership and will really do exactly the same on any "policy" announcements when he is PM. I'm afraid he can't be trusted. If you can't see that then I don't know what additional evidence you need.

He's also dangerously authoritarian which should be a red flag for a future PM.

 

[Jericholyte2]

Starmer is a proven liar with a track record as bad as Boris Johnson. He reneged on his 10 pledges for Labour leadership and will really do exactly the same on any "policy" announcements when he is PM. I'm afraid he can't be trusted. If you can't see that then I don't know what additional evidence you need.

So you ask me to offer policy and when I do you just say, “I don’t believe he’ll do that”

Absolute joke!

Meanwhile you’ll let this cabal that’s looking to strip back our rights and return the country to the Victorian era run amok !

 

[Jericholyte2]

This is exactly why I ask in my thread what the fecking point is!

We let the perfect be the enemy of the good whilst letting the ghouls run amok & carry on with their corruption.

Nothing will change until we acknowledge that, in order to change we need to crawl before we can walk, then walk before we can run.

 

[DanH]

This is exactly why I ask in my thread what the fecking point is!

We let the perfect be the enemy of the good whilst letting the ghouls run amok & carry on with their corruption.

Nothing will change until we acknowledge that, in order to change we need to crawl before we can walk, then walk before we can run.

I think the positive is that the points of view often expressed on this forum don't translate to what you will see from the majority of the public. Polling is still very positive for change.

 

[golden_blunder]

I stand corrected, I forgot scousers